Muslims: How could the Trinity NOT work?!

[inJESUS]

So,if i show Khalfan about the Holy Spirit and Wisdom of God, will he say we are talking about 3 gods?let’s see:

"Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.Psalm 130:7

The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person." 1 Samuel 10:6

When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth." Psalm 104:30

Be strong, all you people of the land," declares the LORD, “and work. For I am with you,” declares the LORD Almighty. “This is what I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt. And my Spirit remains among you. Do not fear.”’" Haggai 2:1-5

“A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.” Isaiah 11:1-2

God’s Spirit is Omnipresent.God’s Spirit changes people.God’s Spirit creates and renew.God’s Spirit gives wisdom,councel,power,knowledge.

The Holy Spirit is eternal. Hebrews 9:14

The Holy Spirit is Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent. John 14:16-17; Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12, 3:16, 6:19, 12:7-14; Galatians 5:22-23 .

Put simply, the Holy Spirit is God.

Now many quotes about the Wisdom/Word of God that created everything were already given.

Can any Muslim explain to me how is it that the Trinity is not in OT and NT?

The problem Muslims have is with the **Incarnation **of Jesus and Not the Trinity as far as i can see because i do not believe that any Muslim will say Allah’s Word and Spirit are created.

Jesus was not created.God’s Wisdom is not created. He was incarnated as a man in Mary’s womb without a biological father. Him being eternal does not mean he did not become a real man, and Him becoming a real man does not lessen His divinity as the eternal Wisdom/Word of God.

Jesus is the fulfillment of all that was promised in those Wisdom passages, for Jesus is Wisdom in person, Wisdom incarnate, Wisdom come in the flesh, which is simply another way of saying that “he who has seen me, has seen the Father,” .In this way Jesus portrays Himself as the divine revelation of the divine character and the divine salvation plan come in person to earth.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me (the Father) void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55 :11

“for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father. I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father.” John 16:27-28

 

[inJESUS]

**

the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure**

 

[Khalfan]

the word Trinity in the english translation is an addition. You said unlike the Bible, the Quran has the word Trinity (thaluth) but it does not. It has the number 3,not the word Trinity.

5:73 …Allah is one of three in a Trinity: …

4:171 …Say not “Trinity”… (thalatha =3)

Isn’t that what trinity means? It is. You will disagree. But you won’t disagree, Father is God, Son is God and Spirit is God; Not 3 God but 1 God. Father is a person, Son is a person and Spirit is a person; Not 3 person but 1 person. The Father who supposed to be the true God, is one of the three for you and this is what Allah prohibits to say. The use THALUTH is given by you Christians. But the meaning is explained in Quran by refering THALATHA.

i can give MANY but i have to give you an example first, so as you understand what we are talking about.

Suppose you meet a man on the street saying : I am the Ghafur, the Rahim,the Rahman.

Why do you understand from this man you being a Muslim? you understand that he is claiming to be God.

Because those are attributes of God. If we see that same man on the cross begging for the forgivness, we will reject him, since he cannot be forgiver and seeker of forgivness at the same time. He cannot be Raheem and Raahim at the same time. Thats illogical.

Jesus never said “i am God” if that’s what you want us to show and corrupt Christians forgot to add that what Jesus did is like the example i gave you :a clear declaration of His divinity to a Jewish audiance without saying explicitely “i am God”.

Not even once. He was supposed to be consistent to what he was saying. But he was not if he meant, he is God.

easy on yourself. Is is complicated but not in the way you make it seem

Jesus divinity did not make him a lesser human and his humanity did not make him a lesser God. When Jesus felt hungry, he indeed felt hungry. When he was tortured, he indeed felt pain.He was NOT a man in name but a true man. (him being a man in shape only was a heresy that the church rejected). The sacrifice is when you give yourself to others:no better love or sacrifice than this. |Jesus was NOT,NOT,NOT praying to himself but to the Father.Just like the Wisdom in the OT talks about the Father , the Incarnate Wisdom talks about the Father.

Did you say something different than what I asked? You are still uin the same circle.

You agree that he was a Man. That is what we too believe. Because of a basic fact that he lived on earth like a very man. He felt hungry. He felt pain. Now when was he God? Before his birth and after his death. It cannot be proven in any measuring scale. Did he act like God while he was alive? That is what you have to prove.

Now, the sacrifice. You said, he gave himself. What he gave? His life? No. Because he is supposed to be God and God never dies. And that is why you say he resurrected. He never lost his life. So, he sacrificed nothing.

You said, he was praying to father. Why would he pray to father, when he himself is God? What the father God could do, that the Son God was unable to? You quoted the Wisdom again. You didn’t answer me. Were they having two individual wisdoms, or were they both having the same wisdom?

 

[Khalfan]

So,if i show Khalfan about the Holy Spirit and Wisdom of God, will he say we are talking about 3 gods? let’s see:

You are. But you wont agree. Let see below.

"Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.Psalm 130:7

Who want to go, Wisdom? or Holy Spirit? If Wisdom leaves God, then God is Wisdomless.

The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person." 1 Samuel 10:6

Two different persons. Still not 2 persons, but 1 person; right? But how is it one different to another? Uncatchable to humanmind.

When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth." Psalm 104:30

Where do Sprit been sent, to earth? Was God spiritless then? No. Probably like before. One Spirit. But in two Spirit.

God is a Spirit. Holy Ghost too is Spirit. Are they two Spirit or One in two Spirit? If they are one Spirit, how do you separate Holy Ghost from Father?

Be strong, all you people of the land," declares the LORD, “and work. For I am with you,” declares the LORD Almighty. “This is what I covenanted with you when you came out of Egypt. And my Spirit remains among you. Do not fear.”’" Haggai 2:1-5

Jesus (pbuh) is the Wisdom of God. Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God. Both were came to earth. One to live with us and other to dwell in us. How could Father be existed then Wisdomless and Spiritless, since they all were one in essence?

“A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit. The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.” Isaiah 11:1-2

God’s Spirit is Omnipresent.God’s Spirit changes people.God’s Spirit creates and renew. God’s Spirit gives wisdom,councel,power,knowledge.

God’s Spirit? What is God then? Something else than Spirit?

The Holy Spirit is eternal. Hebrews 9:14

The Holy Spirit is Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent. John 14:16-17; Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12, 3:16, 6:19, 12:7-14; Galatians 5:22-23.

Put simply, the Holy Spirit is God.

You believe so. None of these were asked. And you are quoting verses from Bible to prove Bible is true. That’s illlogical. I need reasons why you believe it is true. I asked some questiones regarding trinity, which is not answered yet.

Above quotes you given are just like an imagination that my one eye is talking to the other eye. One ear is talking to the other ear. One have separate individual personality. And the other too have it. Then they play hide and seek with one another. Then they realise, they all are one in me. It can be believed, but finding logical reasonings, is impossible, since it is theological.

Continue.

 

[Melchior]

At times I can’t help but seriously wonder whether vast swathes of the religious community I have joined have forgotten the theological core of Islam and buried it with cranky behavioural regulations which they seek to impose on others, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, although God clearly states in the Quran that there is “no compulsion”. I admit at times to feeling rather disillusioned at certain interpretations I have encountered among Muslims of what constitutes legitimate Islamic practice and behaviour. I assure you that people with a Taliban mindset are not confined to Afghanistan.

And I am sickened by the politicized hate-filled philosophy, which passes itself off as Islam when in fact not only does it violate the most basic Islamic rules of warfare, it is often indicative of a complete lack of trust in God’s promise that no one will have to suffer more than they can endure. These extremists have set the cause of the spread of Islam back decades. At times I can’t help but echo the lament of British convert, Michael A. Malik: “Islam is wonderful, but I can’t stand the Muslims!”

But in spite of my frequent disillusionment with the behaviour and attitudes of many of those who call themselves Muslim, in terms of beliefs about the nature of God, I will remain a believer in the oneness of God - for life.

Some time ago an American Protestant friend brought a wonderful quotation of Martin Luther’s to my attention:

Everyone must do his own believing, as he will have to do his own dying.

I am completely at peace with myself about my new, pure monotheistic theological beliefs exemplified by Islam. And this is my statement of belief:

He is God, the only One,
God the Everlasting.
He did not beget and is not begotten,
And none is His equal. (Quran - Surah 112) Qul Huwa Allāhu 'Aĥad
Allāhu Aş-Şamad
Lam Yalid Wa Lam Yūlad
Walam Yakun Lahu Kufūan 'Aĥad.

I bear witness that there is no god but the God
and I bear witness that Mohammed is a prophet of God. Ashadu an la illaha ill allah
Wa ashadu anna Mohammadan rasool Ullah.

Thanks to Parents
Finally, I would like to express my sincere appreciation to my parents - devout, practicing Catholics - who, although strongly disapproving of my conversion to Islam on theological grounds, have accepted my decision and have continued to show me great love, understanding, sensitivity and practical support. I have been most blessed in this regard.

©2000-2006 Islam For Today - www.islamfortoday.com

Jedda,

With the greatest respect, it sounds as if you wanted a God you could understand. But have you considered one of the characteristics of God is that He is utterly a mystery to our understanding? How can God be one and truine? Because He is God. It is a mystery to be believed not fathomed. A God who we can wrap our minds around is only preferable to our finite minds and we syhould be suspect of such rationalizations. An infinite God is a mystery, One God is three Persons as He has revealed himself is simply to sublime to not be true if one believes in a transcendent God. We must never bring God down to our level or we risk worshipping the God of our choice vs. the God who is there. Easier to believe does not equal truth.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

John 1: 1-4

May this light enlighten your understanding and create faith in your heart to believe in the only way to God, through Him who knew you from the beginning.

Peace,

Mel

 

[Khalfan]

Continue.

Now many quotes about the Wisdom/Word of God that created everything were already given.

Can any Muslim explain to me how is it that the Trinity is not in OT and NT?

You tell me how is it there in OT or NT?

The problem Muslims have is with the **Incarnation **of Jesus and Not the Trinity as far as i can see because i do not believe that any Muslim will say Allah’s Word and Spirit are created.

Imagine. In an accident, my hand is cut off as cannot be rejoined and I had to bury that. What should I say, ‘I am burying Khalfan’?

Imagine. One of my leg paralyzed. Completely dead. What would you say, Khalfan dead or One of Khalfan’s leg dead?

The logic is, my hand or my leg alone doesn’t represent Khalfan but it is part of Khalfan. Khalfan becomes a reality when I am complete. God is complete only with his spirit and Wisdom. It doesn’t have to be created since it itself not God but it completes the concept of God. God doesn’t exist as the Wisdom or Spirit is separate from him. If you seperate these, then each of it need individual Wisdom and Spirit, for its own existence. Then it is three different individual Spirits and Wisdoms. In effect, three Gods. Thats blasphemy. From the verses you quoted, the very same idea is derived.

Jesus was not created. God’s Wisdom is not created. He was incarnated as a man in Mary’s womb without a biological father. Him being eternal does not mean he did not become a real man, and Him becoming a real man does not lessen His divinity as the eternal Wisdom/Word of God.

You never realise what you are talking. I know these ideas my dear and I know that you believe in it. I want to know, how possibly it can be the reality of God.

Jesus is the fulfillment of all that was promised in those Wisdom passages, for Jesus is Wisdom in person, Wisdom incarnate, Wisdom come in the flesh, which is simply another way of saying that “he who has seen me, has seen the Father,” .In this way Jesus portrays Himself as the divine revelation of the divine character and the divine salvation plan come in person to earth.

No. He wasn’t. The idea being word of God was of John; Not of Jesus (pbuh). Becasue if he was, he would have never prayed to be saved from the cross. you still keep on quoting Bible and your ideas without answering my points.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me (the Father) void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isaiah 55 :11

Every messengers were the same.

“for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father. I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father.” John 16:27-28

Does that make him the word? please, I read Bible. Don’t quote the whole Bible to be answered. I ask my questions again. I am looking answer only for those.

If it is God became man, that drama on cross is totally illogic. Becasue God became man, died and then again became God. No love, No sacrifice; since God loses nothing. If God became man, then he is no longer God, and you cannot call Jesus (pbuh) God. If he was still God then why he was praying to someone else? That contradicts the earlier concept too that he was God and Man at the same time. And then you cannot say, God dead on the cross, becasue that’s blasphemy. Trinity is an everlasting mystery and you believe in something even the founders couldn’t understand.

 

[Khalfan]

Jedda,

With the greatest respect, it sounds as if you wanted a God you could understand. But have you considered one of the characteristics of God is that He is utterly a mystery to our understanding? How can God be one and truine? Because He is God. It is a mystery to be believed not fathomed. A God who we can wrap our minds around is only preferable to our finite minds and we syhould be suspect of such rationalizations. An infinite God is a mystery, One God is three Persons as He has revealed himself is simply to sublime to not be true if one believes in a transcendent God. We must never bring God down to our level or we risk worshipping the God of our choice vs. the God who is there. Easier to believe does not equal truth.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

John 1: 1-4

May this light enlighten your understanding and create faith in your heart to believe in the only way to God, through Him who knew you from the beginning.

Peace,

Mel

Believe in 3 or 300 God. No problem. But give a logical reason to the question. How can God exist in three form with three seperate Wisdom and Spirit, and yet One Wisdom and One Spirit?

 

[Melchior]

Believe in 3 or 300 God. No problem. But give a logical reason to the question. How can God exist in three form with three seperate Wisdom and Spirit, and yet One Wisdom and One Spirit?

We believe in only one God. Your explanation is not even close to what Christians believe, so answering a strawman would benefit neither of us. Muslims can no more tell Christians what they really believe than I can tell a Muslim what He really believes. We believe in one God eternally existent in three persons. It is a mystery only God Himself has the ability to understand. The man who can fathom God, has brought God down to His level. We are made in His image. He is not made in our image. How can you have a body and a soul? Wouldn’t that mean that you are two people and not one? How can a man be both in the ground and in Heaven? You see that this is the same logic you are using. You are trying to apply finite human reason to an infinite God. It cannot be done.

If you choose to ignore what we truly believe and say we believe what we do not there is no point in having a discussion because it will go nowhere.

Peace,

Mel

 

[Khalfan]

We believe in only one God. Your explanation is not even close to what Christians believe, so answering a strawman would benefit neither of us. Muslims can no more tell Christians what they really believe than I can tell a Muslim what He really believes. We believe in one God eternally existent in three persons. It is a mystery only God Himself has the ability to understand. The man who can fathom God, has brought God down to His level. We are made in His image. He is not made in our image. How can you have a body and a soul? Wouldn’t that mean that you are two people and not one? How can a man be both in the ground and in Heaven? You see that this is the same logic you are using. You are trying to apply finite human reason to an infinite God. It cannot be done.

If you choose to ignore what we truly believe and say we believe what we do not there is no point in having a discussion because it will go nowhere.

Peace,

Mel

See… you keep on explaining trinity and then end up with Mystery. You have no reason to believe in it.

 

[Steve40]

I think is logical that the Creator of logic should not be bound by logic in His Trinitarian Existence.

 

[Steve40]

I think it is logical that the Creator of logic would not be bound by logic in His Trinitarian Existence.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… You have no reason to believe in it.

We’re all guilty of that.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Dear Verisimilitude,

You say Jesus (as) is without equal but this is not true because he is equal to Adam (as).

Jesus (as) birth was miraculous, so was Adam (as) birth. Just as Jesus was born through God’s command “Be” and he became so was Adam (as).

Moslems even agree Jesus was human born and His mother is Mary. Other than Mohamed saying so, I see why you might take “Be” as how Jesus came to be, but Adam had no mother. On that alone Jesus and Adam are unequal. More could be noted but the point is made.

How Mary became physically pregnant is important as we both agree she is the Blessed Virgin. The command “Be” could be seen as the miraculous zygote, but not as a new Created being like Adam since Christ existed before Adam. Even if you do think so, that still makes Jesus unique to all prophets including Mohamed because Adam was not a prophet despite what the Quran says.

You say Jesus Christ (as) is perfect and I agree with that. He has to be infallible / perfect in order to deliver a perfect divine message. Just as all prophets were perfect.

Only God is perfect as you yourself keep saying. Human Prophets are not perfect as they are human. Mohamed made mistakes and sinned just as Moses made mistakes and sinned. Did they sin before but not after going public? Jesus is not a prophet, but God, and yes, Jesus is perfect=God. He asked a question that is relevant today and to this discussion.

John 8:45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

Can you answer Him? Only one person could only make such a claim in history. The Jews and Roman authority killed Him for heresy and political threat respectively. Mohamed and Jesus are polar opposites in that characteristic, just as Christ is different from every legitimate prophet before Him. Can you justify Muhamed’s ordering assassinations so it is not a sin to take the life of another human being?

Even if you don’t believe Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead by His own Will, you should at least acknowledge that by the power of God in him He healed hundreds, and fed thousands during His peaceful ministry. Be honest, Mohamed is only a Warner who’s only stated miracle is the Quran.

That is because the imperfect or fallible messenger can not guarantee he will receive the message and deliver it perfectly.

Then please please please reject Mohamed on those criteria alone. Please, for the Good of our world study the man behind your faith. How do you honor allah by forgetting his words?
Whatever a Verse do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #106)

Either allah made a mistake, or Mohamed did. That is being fallible by definition, and if he can abrogate and cause to forget what he said before why did he say it anyway? If you say the verse was no longer needed then Mohamed is unique as a prophet because no other prophets changed or deleted their message part way through their ministry…or military campaign in the case of Mohamed.

Why does this make sense to you and, not what Catholics believe most fully understand God as the Trinity? A man can be a father, a son, and an inspiration to others and remain a man. Why is that so hard for you to accept God to be The Father, The Son, and The Inspiration to His creation and remain God? You cannot associate One with Itself, but One can be described as 3 and not be polytheism.

Only an infallible messenger can deliver a perfect message because he does not make any mistakes in his receipt of the message and in his delivery of it. This is a logical and reasonable requirement.

Logic and minor study would conclude Mohamed made many mistakes, but even hadith disagree with you about perfect prophets.
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. ‘You are Adam whose mistake expelled you from Paradise.’ Adam said to him, 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His Messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly; yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my creation?”’ Allah’s Apostle said twice, “So, Adam overpowered Moses.” (Book #55, Hadith #621) Bukhari

 

[Verisimilitude]

~continued

They are chosen by God, they are the best examples for mankind, they are infallible and do not make mistakes for if they made a mistake then people may follow them in that mistake It doesn’t make the messenger divine.

No other claimed to be divine. What kind of example was Mohamed? I’ll grant you his childhood was sad, but most of his life was not out of the ordinary for the time period- in fact it was pretty good until he had his first unidentified spirit visitation. Was Mohamed like Isaiah, or Jacobs son Joseph, Moses? No.

Dear Verisimilitude, we are talking apples and you are talking oranges. The topic is trinity and how it could not work what does this have to do with the character of Muhammad (sa) ? please stick to the topic, God willing I will answer all of your accusations about the prophet in a separate thread but please first reply to the valid concerns about trinity which I raised.

We are talking God- who created apples and oranges. It has everything to do with the character of Mohamed since Jesus is part of the Trinity, and you likely believe this:

Abu Huraira reported many ahadith from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and one is that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I am most close to Jesus, son of Mary, among the whole of mankind in this worldly life and the next life. They said: Allah’s Messenger how is it? Thereupon he said: Prophets are brothers in faith, having different mothers. Their religion is, however, one and there is no Apostle between us (between I and Jesus Christ). (Book #030, Hadith #5836) ~Sahih Muslim

Deny this belief and I will be satisfied and no longer compare Mohamed to Jesus in this thread. I agree Mohamed has no place in the conversation, but everything you believe about the Trinity is from Mohamed. Mohamed has been discredited according to your own criteria. What you believe is highly suspect because your source is tainted. This is not that difficult or unreasonable to conclude.

When you say God is One “essence” that manifests Himself in three persons. You have essentially divided Him into parts because he is physically in 3 separate bodies.

I say God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is how He has shown himself to us. Do you have eyes to see?

One body on earth called “the son”, one body in heaven called “the father” and one body called “the spirit”.

The Son is no longer on Earth because He rejoined the Father in heaven like we hope to some day. He showed us The Way. By the very nature of the word the Holy Spirit is not a body, and has never been considered as physical by anyone but you.

This my friend is not complete monotheism, it is deficient. Contrary to logic and reasoning you divide God into 3 parts and then tell us all 3 physically separate beings or bodies or realities however you want to label them are really one being, without explaining how this is possible.

There are two deficiencies, no…three…many. The first is our written and spoken language describing God, second is our ability to understand God, and third/fourth the negative forces that compel evil men to wrongly act/speak in His name, and by holding to stubborn tradition. It is logic and reason that confirms the Trinity. It has been explained. What is no longer clear?

Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained
You have taken the infinite being, the One who created the expanding infinite universe that in comparison makes the earth seem like a Small tiny micro spec then reduced Him to the an even smaller spec and gave him a finite body. That is to say you held he is contained. How can the infinite be contained in the finite? explain that for me please be my guest, I’m all ears friend.

Actually, that is a great example. Yes, God is so complex, stupendous, magnificent, remarkable, overwhelmingly omnipotent that He has no name but I AM, and is nothing more than everything. First and Last and everything in between. Do you have a problem with God being in His own creation as a bird, the wind, water or a man? Are you suggesting God cannot be in two places at the same time? Can God create a stone too heavy to lift? Could iron bars contain God? If anyone is limiting God here, it is you. Why would skin and bones contain God?

 

[inJESUS]

5:73 …Allah is one of three

in a Trinity: …Khalfan are we going to argue about the obvious?" in a Trinity" is an english ADDITION.

4:171 …Say not “Trinity”… (thalatha =3)

 

[inJESUS]

Quote:
"Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.Psalm 130:7

Who want to go, Wisdom? or Holy Spirit? If Wisdom leaves God, then God is Wisdomless.

the Psalmist is talking so neither Wisdom nor Holy Spirit the Psalmist is saying that God’s Spirit is everywhere. Is he talking about 2 gods or one God? one obviously.

Quote:
The Spirit of the LORD will come upon you in power, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person." 1 Samuel 10:6

Two different persons. Still not 2 persons, but 1 person; right? But how is it one different to another? Uncatchable to humanmind.

Samuel is talking about God’s Spirit

Quote:
When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth." Psalm 104:30

Where do Sprit been sent, to earth? Was God spiritless then? No. Probably like before. One Spirit. But in two Spirit.

God and His Spirit are Omnipresent.God is not sitting in one place. Wherever there is the Spirit of God, there is God.

God is a Spirit. Holy Ghost too is Spirit. Are they two Spirit or One in two Spirit? If they are one Spirit, how do you separate Holy Ghost from Father?

i believe you are refering to John by saying God is Spirit. John also said “God is light” (1 John 1:5) and also that “God is love” (1 John 4:8). It is clear that when the Apostle John uses this style of language he is not defining God’s material nature.

To understand what the Apostle is saying, The answer lies in 1) the previous chapter [which gives context] 2) other Biblical references and 3) the rest of the sentence. In John 3:6, the Apostle John taught:

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

Here John defines what he means when he uses the words flesh and spirit. What is Spirit? That which is born of the Spirit. What does is mean to be born of the Spirit? Other scriptural passages elaborate on John’s meaning:

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.”

In other words, when John says that “God is Spirit,” he is teaching that God is holy, pure, perfect, and without sin.

God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Paraphrased :“God is holy, perfect, and and without sin. Therefore, those who worship God must strive to be holy, perfect, and and without sin also.”

For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy." (Leviticus 11:45)

Jesus (pbuh) is the Wisdom of God. Holy Ghost is the Spirit of God. Both were came to earth. One to live with us and other to dwell in us. How could Father be existed then Wisdomless and Spiritless, since they all were one in essence?

We do believe that God is Omnipresent. Wherever there is the Wisdom and Spirit of God, there is God since they are inseperable.

You believe so. None of these were asked. And you are quoting verses from Bible to prove Bible is true. That’s illlogical. I need reasons why you believe it is true. I asked some questiones regarding trinity, which is not answered yet.

you keep repeating that it is Christians who invented the Holy Spirit and Wisdom incarnate and i quoted verses taken from non-Christian scriptures. Trinity is simply in the Bible whether you believe in it or not.Since i do not believe God’s word can be corrupt, then i believe in old and new scriptures

 

[inJESUS]

Now many quotes about the Wisdom/Word of God that created everything were already given.

Can any Muslim explain to me how is it that the Trinity is not in OT and NT?

You tell me how is it there in OT or NT?

how many passages have i quoted so far that talk about the Holy Spirit and Wisdom of God in the OT? and then in NT?count them.

** God is complete only with his spirit and Wisdom.**

mmmm that’s the Trinity

It doesn’t have to be created since it itself not God but it completes the concept of God.

indeed, it is not God yet is God

God doesn’t exist as the Wisdom or Spirit is separate from him.

indeed, that’s why we believe that the Father, His Spirit and Wisdom are inseperable.

If you seperate these, then each of it need individual Wisdom and Spirit, for its own existence.

we do NOT seperate God from His Wisdom and Spirit. We make a distinction of the inseperable Father/Wisdom/Spirit.

Quote:
Jesus was not created. God’s Wisdom is not created.eccQUOTE]

You never realise what you are talking. I know these ideas my dear and I know that you believe in it. I want to know, how possibly it can be the reality of God

. what reality? that the Father has Wisdom and Spirit? this reality is in the Bible. Or that Jesus was incarnate? i already explained why He was born to a virgin and you did not answer my post about it’s theological meaning in Islam after i proved it fails to be put under “just a miracle”.

No. He wasn’t. The idea being word of God was of John; Not of Jesus (pbuh).

no you read about Jesus identfying Himself with the Wisdom of God mostly in Matthew and you read about it as well in Luke, Paul and John. You think that it was only John because you didn’t know that many passages in Mathew , Luke and Paul are similar to Old Testament passages about Wisdom.

you still keep on quoting Bible and your ideas without answering my points

.
i am “dissecting” your questions point to those i haven’t answered please.

.

If it is God became man, that drama on cross is totally illogic.

i’ll try to answer each word

Becasue God became man, died and then again became God.

nop. Jesus is God before incarnation (since He is with God from the beginning), during incarnation ( He took an additional nature without ceizing to be divine) and after incarnation. The change is not in God but in the second nature the Word took. Instead of coming as a book , it came as a human to fulfill the Law. So it is not God who stopped to be God and then became God The Word of God took an additional nature without ceizing to be God.

No love, No sacrifice; since God loses nothing

.
Jesus was not “acting” like a man. Jesus was indeed a man. As a man, he **suffered **emotionally and physically;it was real suffering.

If God became man, then he is no longer God

says who?
the Word took a human form without ceizing to be God’s eternal Word. Who says God cannot come to you in the shape of man for example?

If he was still God then why he was praying to someone else?

because He is not the Father. God to us is not the Father only. God to us is Father, His Word, His Holy Spirit. The Word of God came as a man, not a book. The Word of God talks about the Father, the Word of God talks to the Father. This makes the Word disctinct from the Father, yet equal in nature.

the name of ALLAH, the Gracious, the Merciful. All praise is due to ALLAH alone, Lord of all the worlds. The Gracious, the Merciful. Master of the Day of Judgment. THEE alone do we worship and THEE alone do we implore for help. Guide us in the straight path, The path of those on whom THOU hast bestowed THY favours, those who have not incurred THY displeasure and those who have not gone astray. S. 1:1-7

Here the Word of Allah is directed to Allah,is actually praying to Allah and yet this is supposed to be an eternal prayer, a prayer that has existed before creation.

And then you cannot say, God dead on the cross, becasue that’s blasphemy.

the Word of God took a second nature : a human form. The human form died; the eternal Word does not die.

Trinity is an everlasting mystery and you believe in something even the founders couldn’t understand.

another reason why it is not invented. If someone gives me a very easy definition of God, he surely is giving man-made teachings that reflect his limited mind.

 

[famdigy]

Christians say there is only one God and I understand that. The trinity from what I understand is the union of the father, the son, and the holy spirit in one Godhead. But what happens when the holy spirit visits earth while father and son are in heaven?

A person on here posted that God is not complete without his spirit and wisdom In other words, the moment in which the spirit descends down to earth or visits another place. God is not complete. If God is not complete, then he is a part. If he is a part then he is not truly one. In the Islamic thought when we say God is one being - it means externally he doesn’t have any partners i.e. there are no other gods. It also means internally he is indivisible. The One God is not made up of components or parts of parts.

When the Christian says God the Son or God in human form, in the muslim mind this completely negates the concept of Monotheism because he is no longer the One God. He becomes a God made up of components and is transformed for an independent God to a dependent one. This God depends on his various body parts to keep him alive - lungs and oxygen to breath, heart to pump blood, food for energy etc…etc. A dependent God is not an omnipotent God because he is at the mercy of his own organs and environment.

The question is directed to Muslims “how could the trinity not work?”

To a Muslim the trinity does not work because it doesn’t make sense and can not be logically understood. The Christians say that God is not limited by our logic and understanding and I agree but we are not the ones who made an incomprehensible concept such as trinity into our main doctrine.

Therefore we can not base our beliefs and practices on a doctrine we can not intellectually understand. Otherwise the belief becomes blind faith.

The human faculties of intellect, hearing and sight are all gifts from God that are meant to be used to find Him. The Quran constantly asks us to reflect, to think, to reason and to question. And that the true path to God is the one that is connected with the intellect and reason.

 

[Khalfan]

I think it is logical that the Creator of logic would not be bound by logic in His Trinitarian Existence.

Can the creator of Devil be tempted by the same devil? Hope yes. And don’t ask logic but believe.

 

[Khalfan]

Christians say there is only one God and I understand that. The trinity from what I understand is the union of the father, the son, and the holy spirit in one Godhead. But what happens when the holy spirit visits earth while father and son are in heaven?

A person on here posted that God is not complete without his spirit and wisdom In other words, the moment in which the spirit descends down to earth or visits another place. God is not complete. If God is not complete, then he is a part. If he is a part then he is not truly one. In the Islamic thought when we say God is one being - it means externally he doesn’t have any partners i.e. there are no other gods. It also means internally he is indivisible. The One God is not made up of components or parts of parts.

When the Christian says God the Son or God in human form, in the muslim mind this completely negates the concept of Monotheism because he is no longer the One God. He becomes a God made up of components and is transformed for an independent God to a dependent one. This God depends on his various body parts to keep him alive - lungs and oxygen to breath, heart to pump blood, food for energy etc…etc. A dependent God is not an omnipotent God because he is at the mercy of his own organs and environment.

The question is directed to Muslims “how could the trinity not work?”

To a Muslim the trinity does not work because it doesn’t make sense and can not be logically understood. The Christians say that God is not limited by our logic and understanding and I agree but we are not the ones who made an incomprehensible concept such as trinity into our main doctrine.

Therefore we can not base our beliefs and practices on a doctrine we can not intellectually understand. Otherwise the belief becomes blind faith.

The human faculties of intellect, hearing and sight are all gifts from God that are meant to be used to find Him. The Quran constantly asks us to reflect, to think, to reason and to question. And that the true path to God is the one that is connected with the intellect and reason.

Excellent.