Muslims: How could the Trinity NOT work?!

[Booklover]

To a Muslim the trinity does not work because it doesn’t make sense and can not be logically understood. The Christians say that God is not limited by our logic and understanding and I agree but we are not the ones who made an incomprehensible concept such as trinity into our main doctrine.

We did not invent it, it was revealed to us!

Therefore we can not base our beliefs and practices on a doctrine we can not intellectually understand. Otherwise the belief becomes blind faith.

First you made the bolded statement and then contradict yourself here. No matter how hard we may try to analyze God, we cannot understand everything about him! You want to keep believing what you do, because that’s what Muhammad claimed and of course you believe everything he said without any real proof! That is blind faith!

Vickie

 

[Ibn_Taymiya]

Ahlan wa sahlen,

If God/Allah is infinite in His Design, what stops Him from fulfilling His Will by manifestation of Three Most Holy Persons in One Essence? It defies human logic and our definition of “one”, but for God nothing is impossible OR illogical because He IS His own definitions, not ours.

Peace to all. I am not trying to start an argument, I’m merely curious about the Muslim perspective of the idea of the Sacred Trinity.

We don’t accept for you to say that you worship 3 persons who interact with each other, as we consider this as polytheism even if you said that they are one God, you agree with me that this is illogical because God’s nature couldn’t be understood, yes of course no one can understand God’s nature, but the case is that God didn’t say that so that we accept it, for us to accept it, it must be said by God through a right script.
And I actually have a question about this, I see lots of Christians say that God revealed himself when humanity became mature that they can understand Him, do you agree with this? If you agree, then you are supposed to have been understanding His nature now.

 

[Verisimilitude]

We don’t accept for you to say that you worship 3 persons who interact with each other…

It is not your place to accept for me or anyone else…anything.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Excellent.

Excellent dodge.

 

[Ibn_Taymiya]

It is not your place to accept for me or anyone else…anything.

You asked about our problem with Trinity, I simply answered it.

 

[Verisimilitude]

You asked about our problem with Trinity, I simply answered it.

Imposition of your will on others is not a valid response to the topic either on-line or in practice. Mohammedean’s rarely answer direct questions.

 

[Ibn_Taymiya]

Imposition of your will on others is not a valid response to the topic either on-line or in practice. Mohammedean’s rarely answer direct questions.

I didn’t mean so, may be I misexpressed my point, but I simpy meant that we don’t accept your view, this is what we believe. If you’d like to have a conversation whether Trinity is from God or not, I have no problem.

 

[Booklover]

I didn’t mean so, may be I misexpressed my point, but I simpy meant that we don’t accept your view, this is what we believe. If you’d like to have a conversation whether Trinity is from God or not, I have no problem.

Neither do we accept your view of the Bible, the Trinity, Jesus or anything! You’re still trying to impose your beliefs on us as stated by Verisimilitude!

Vickie

 

[Khalfan]

We did not invent it, it was revealed to us!

Through Paul but. Not Jesus (pbuh).

First you made the bolded statement and then contradict yourself here. No matter how hard we may try to analyze God, we cannot understand everything about him! You want to keep believing what you do, because that’s what Muhammad claimed and of course you believe everything he said without any real proof! That is blind faith!

Vickie

Jesus (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh) too believed in the same ONE God. Moses (pbuh) said ‘God is one and only’ (Not one in three or three in one). –Duet 6:4. Jesus (pbuh) said the same ‘God is one and only’ (Not one in three or three in one). –Mark 12:2. Mohamed (pbuh) been told to say the same in Quran ‘God is one and only’ (Not one in three or three in one). –112:1.

 

[Khalfan]

Excellent dodge.

Only men of understanding will heed -Quran.

 

[Khalfan]

Imposition of your will on others is not a valid response to the topic either on-line or in practice. Mohammedean’s rarely answer direct questions.

How many Mohamadeans you have seen yet?

 

[Verisimilitude]

I didn’t mean so, may be I misexpressed my point, but I simpy meant that we don’t accept your view, this is what we believe. If you’d like to have a conversation whether Trinity is from God or not, I have no problem.

If you would like to pick up and respond where famdigy left off, I have no objection. Post #72.

 

[Verisimilitude]

How many Mohamadeans you have seen yet?

Today I saw a woman in her hijab. It has been a few weeks since I spoke with my Syrian born, Iraqi schooled Muslim friend, Abdul.

How many Catholics did you see today?

Or what was your point?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Only men of **mis-**understanding will heed -Quran.

correction noted above.

 

[famdigy]

Dear Vicky,

He is not trying to impose his beliefs on you. He is only answering the original question that is directed to Muslims. “Muslims: How could the Trinity NOT work?!”.

About the trinity you said “We did not invent it, it was revealed to us!”
That is the same as saying “It must be true because the bible says so” and that’s fine IF you believe in the bible.

But we do not believe in the truth of the bible. At least not all of it and especially not in the trinity because we can not understand it. That is why the Christians say “its a complex concept” or “God is not limited by our logic”

This type of reasoning introduces another problem, we all believe God is Just and He doesn’t wrong anybody, not even an atom’s weight but what sort God gives me and you an inquiring mind and the faculties of reason logic and understanding, then demands we believe in something we can not understand, rationalize or comprehend. Where is the justice in this?

and I wonder how many Christians feel guilty for thinking the same, forcing themselves deeper into “faith” and thinking they are evil or possessed for entertaining these questions.

It seems that questioning the truth of the trinity is a touchy subject for Christians, maybe because it raises some insecurities and or disturbs their faith. After all, it is through questioning, discussing and considering different viewpoints that one’s beliefs are confirmed or corrected.

 

[Booklover]

Dear Vicky,

He is not trying to impose his beliefs on you. He is only answering the original question that is directed to Muslims. “Muslims: How could the Trinity NOT work?!”.

About the trinity you said “We did not invent it, it was revealed to us!”
That is the same as saying “It must be true because the bible says so” and that’s fine IF you believe in the bible.

But we do not believe in the truth of the bible. At least not all of it and especially not in the trinity because we can not understand it. That is why the Christians say “its a complex concept” or “God is not limited by our logic”

This type of reasoning introduces another problem, we all believe God is Just and He doesn’t wrong anybody, not even an atom’s weight but what sort God gives me and you an inquiring mind and the faculties of reason logic and understanding, then demands we believe in something we can not understand, rationalize or comprehend. Where is the justice in this?

and I wonder how many Christians feel guilty for thinking the same, forcing themselves deeper into “faith” and thinking they are evil or possessed for entertaining these questions.

It seems that questioning the truth of the trinity is a touchy subject for Christians, maybe because it raises some insecurities and or disturbs their faith. After all, it is through questioning, discussing and considering different viewpoints that one’s beliefs are confirmed or corrected.

Your statement makes no sense because you seem to believe that God should be completely understandable by human standards. If we knew all about God, he wouldn’t be God! Though the word Trinity is not in the Bible, the concept is!

Vickie

 

[Khalfan]

Khalfan are we going to argue about the obvious?" in a Trinity" is an english ADDITION.

THALATHA = THREE. Trinity= THALUTH. The number 3 is in the Quran but the word Trinity is not.

i never said the number 3 is not in the Quran. I said the word Trinity is not.

Hope you will understand. As you have said, the arabic word THALUTH for trinity, was it existing in 600 AD? Was the English word TRINITY existing in 600 AD or before it? What was it called then and what you call it now is not the point. But the concept doesn’t change with time. THALATHA then (in that verse) and THALUTH now is reffering the same 3 in 1 God. You believe Jesus (pbuh) said “I am God” which we don’t find in the entire Bible and you always have to quote other verses (like Jn 10:30) and interpret the meaning and claim “See… Jesus (pbuh) clearly said, he is God”.

Continued.

 

[Khalfan]

so you understand now that it is not necessary tosay “i am Allah” for you to understand that the man is claiming divinity. As to illogical, you are still making the same mistake, that Jesus is only God and not a man which was a heresy refuted by the church long time ago. Jesus is not the Father and Jesus was ALSO a man.

Jesus (pbuh) was not also but was a man and he said,

“I ascend unto MY FATHER, and YOUR FATHER; and to MY GOD, and YOUR GOD” -John 20:17

In what sense he said, MY GOD?

he is consistent. It is you who either think he is only God, or that He is the Father. Both are incorrect. Jesus was a human and was divine (not the Father but Wisdom incarnate =ontological equality). Do not mix everything together as if you are not reading what am writing.

yes i did cuz you were mixing His divinity with His humanity with Him being the Father.

Again:

God has Wisdom and Holy Spirit.

Jesus is Wisdom in person. He is not the Father. When Jesus/Wisdom talks about the Father, He is not talking to himself because He is NOT the Father. When the Word of Allah praises Allah, it is not praising itself because the Word is not Allah yet it is equal with Allah.

When the Wisdom was on earth in the form of man, was the father wisdomless? Were they both having the same Wisdom or seperate individual wisdoms?

when was He God? ALWAYS. He is God BEFORE His incarnation, during His incarnation ( +a human body) and after His incarnation. The Word of God is always God even if it takes a human/material form. The second nature of the Word (human) does not nullify the divinity of the Word. It only adds another nature.

Yet not proved, he acted like God, while he was man.

as a human, he felt the pain of all the torture He received. He felt emotional and physical pain. He completed His mission as a true human. He knew about His resurrection,but does this negate the fact that he suffered terribly? no. He knew about his crucifixion but does it mean he did not suffer ? no. He talked about his suffering and lived it.

OK. So the suffering is the point. Suffering was the sacrifice.

Ther was two other thieves that got crucified beside Jesus (pbuh) (as supposed). Do you think they paid atleast for their own sins? Did their SUFFERINGS have any value in Christianity?

Some Gnostics taught that since the Messiah should not suffer, then surely it was not him who suffered on the cross but his “likeness”, that is, that the Spirit of the Messiah left Jesus on the cross and the crucified was his body, his “appearance”. That’s what we find in the Quran, a gnostic interpretation of Jesus’ death

Not only some gnostics, but also the Bible. Have you forgot the complaint of Jesus?

“My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” Who said this, God or Man?

see? because He is NOT the Father. Do you remember all the Wisdom passages i quoted where Wisdom is personified and speaks about God? Wisdom says She is with God since the beginning and God rejoiced in Her ecc? does it mean Wisdom is talking to Herself? no , Wisdom of the Father is talking about the Father. Jesus does the same.

WHY-DO-HE-HAVE-TO-PRAY? read my question before you answer.

everything the Father does, the Son does as well.

He haven’t had to pray then. But he did, why?

who “they”?

Father and SON.

 

[inJESUS]

Christians say there is only one God and I understand that. The trinity from what I understand is the union of the father, the son, and the holy spirit in one Godhead. But what happens when the holy spirit visits earth while father and son are in heaven?

God is omnipresent. He is not sitting in one place. Wherever there is the Spirit of God, there is God. The Trinity is 3 unseperable yet distinct.

When Allah in the Quran says he sends his spirit to strenghthen believers, it surely does not mean he became spiritless.

In the Islamic thought when we say God is one being - it means externally he doesn’t have any partners i.e. there are no other gods. It also means internally he is indivisible. The One God is not made up of components or parts of parts.

 

[inJESUS]

Through Paul but. Not Jesus (pbuh).

did Paul write the OT? why do yu repeat a baseless claim when I PERSONALLY wrote TO you that Jesus identified Himself with the Wisdom of God in MATTHEW, not Paul? and what about other Trinitarian passages outside Paul? if you are not reading what am writing, please tell me so that i refrain from answering you.

Jesus (pbuh) and Moses (pbuh) too believed in the same ONE God.