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Ibn_Taymiya
Guest
Well, I see that this message went offtopic, but if you insist that I answer it, I have no problem, and if you’d like to start a conversation, I also have no problem, anyway, I am tired now, I will answer you later.
F
famdigy
Guest
salaam bro, lets not go off topic in this thread. We can address Verisimilitude’s questions in a new thread. Dear friend, please create a new thread and we’ll address all of your concerns about Islam.
Going back to the Trinity
Dear Vickie, I don’t believe God should be completely understandable. What I believe is IF God wants me to believe in something very important whatever it may be. It should make sense, it should be logical and it should be understandable. This lays the burden of proof on the human being, Once a reasonable and understandable argument has been presented to the mind and intellect. It is up to the person then to accept or reject that concept. That is because God is Just, He is fair. He doesn’t require us to believe in something without having presented a strong argument for it. If you can’t understand or explain the trinity and if it causes so much confusion then maybe that is because the trinity is not from God because God is not the author of confusion.
B
Booklover
Guest
If you think that believing in the Trinity causes us Christians confusion, you know nothing about us or what we really believe!
Since God is not the author of confusion he does not send untrustworthy messengers with contradictory teachings either.
Vickie
F
famdigy
Guest
I suppose that believing in the trinity (among other things) is how the Christians prove their faithfulness to God. Because “God has revealed it” in the bible, therefore we believe it and we don’t need to understand it, we do not require the church or anybody else dissect it for us. It is revealed, we believe it. You can’t understand it because God is beyond your human logic and thats the end of discussion.
^What I said Above only makes sense if you believe in the truth of the bible. But if someone does not believe in the truth of the bible then you need to explain the trinity to them outside of the scripture and I don’t know if that is even possible.
In the Islamic thought we believe that everything God reveals to us MUST make sense and should be understandable because God created our intelligence which is part of our nature. Therefore God should make his revelation understandable to our nature, He created our intellect and senses so that we can use them to navigate our world, and to distinguish between truth and falsehood. How do we know to differentiate between what is true and what is false if we can’t understand it to begin with?
therefore when the Christians ask the Muslims “how could the trinity not work?!” We say it does not work because it does not make sense.
^What I said Above only makes sense if you believe in the truth of the bible. But if someone does not believe in the truth of the bible then you need to explain the trinity to them outside of the scripture and I don’t know if that is even possible.
In the Islamic thought we believe that everything God reveals to us MUST make sense and should be understandable because God created our intelligence which is part of our nature. Therefore God should make his revelation understandable to our nature, He created our intellect and senses so that we can use them to navigate our world, and to distinguish between truth and falsehood. How do we know to differentiate between what is true and what is false if we can’t understand it to begin with?
therefore when the Christians ask the Muslims “how could the trinity not work?!” We say it does not work because it does not make sense.
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inJESUS
Guest
can i step in?
I agree with what you wrote IF:
we are talking about Laws :i understand why He said do not lie. I understand why He said do not rape. I understand why He said love others.Why? because these laws have to do with humans relationships and human nature. The “whys” are understood.
BUT,
If i understand the NATURE of God, it means we are on the same level. With our limited mind , we barely understand ourselves. So to say that you “must” understand God in order for any doctrine to be true, you are basically equaling God with yourself. If there is nothing like God, then there is nothing that compares to Him.
What you are basically talking about is the Onness of Allah in Islam. He is ONE, period; no further elaboration or understanding of the nature of Oness (tawhid)… In Christianity, He is One as well, BUT Christianity gives a deeper understanding of this Oness that Islam lacks. Tawhid comes from “wahhada”.Wahhada means to UNITE.
So how do you reconcile the Oness of Allah with the fact that the Quran is the eternal, uncreated, Word of Allah?
is Allah and his word 2 gods or one God?
if 2, then polytheism.
If One, then how can 2 “entities” be eternal and uncreated when only Allah is eternal? result : Allah AND his word are One Allah YET Allah is distinct from his word since the word comes from Allah but is not Allah. In other words, the Word of Allah = Allah in His nature, but is distinct from Allah who is the “source” of His Word.
F
famdigy
Guest
Dear inJESUS,
I’m not sure in where you read the “Quran is the eternal, uncreated, Word of Allah?” If this is a quote from an Islamic source, I’d like you to provide a reference so that we can understand the context and what the person meant by “uncreated”.
Nay, but it is a glorious Qur’an, On a guarded tablet (Quran 85:21-22)
The source of the Quran and all of the heavenly books is the “guarded tablet”. There are many interpretations of what it is.
Some traditions say it is a metaphor for an the soul, others say it is a book in which God’s words are preserved or protected from change or corruption. Never the less, all of the traditions affirm the tablet has been created.
Ibn Abbas reports that the Prophet said, God created the Tablet from a white pearl. It’s two surfaces are of green emerald, and its writing is of light. Source: Majlisi. Biharul Anwar Vol.54 Page 376
The Shi’ite imams also considered pillars of learning in early Islam according to sunnis as well as Shi’ites have said the tablet is created. The well known ascetic Sufyan al-Thawri asked the sixth Imam, Ja’far al-sadiq, about the verse “Nun. By the pen and that which they write (therewith)” (Quran 68:1) . Sufyan relates that imam Ja’far spoke concerning this verse as follows:
“Nun is a river in the Garden. God said to it, ‘Harden!’ So it hardened and became ink. Then God said to the pen, “write!” So the Pen wrote in the guarded tablet everything that is and will be until the day of resurrection…” Source: Ibid. Page 368
Early Muslim philosopher Ibn Al’arabi states that the Pen and tablet is a reference to the Intellect and the soul. The intellect being God’s first creation and the Soul his second.
The relationship between the Intellect and the soul is like the relationship between the pen and the tablet, where the tablet is subservient to the pen, it is passive and receives whatever the pen has to write.
Ibn al-Arabi writes:
Since God created this First intellect as a Pen, it sought through its own reality a place for its reflectivity to write, since its a pen. From this search arose the guarded tablet that is, the soul…The intellect cast to the soul everything within itself to the day of resurrection, inscribed and arranged…
Source: Ibn Al-arabi, Futuhat vol.2 428.8
The Quran therefore is a created thing and not ‘uncreated’ because it is derived from the guarded tablet. But more importantly the guarded tablet itself is a result of the pen’s writing or the intellects imposition. As such the intellect has a high status and is praised both in the Quran and the hadith literature. And if God is going to reveal a doctrine for me to follow, this doctrine must be understandable. This is contrary to what the idea of the trinity teaches.
The second point is that the created v.s. uncreated nature of the Quran is not a doctrine on which we base our faith in Islam. God did not say you can not be a Muslim if you don’t believe in this.
On the contrary this the case with Christianity. Can you be a catholic without believing in the trinity?
I’m not sure in where you read the “Quran is the eternal, uncreated, Word of Allah?” If this is a quote from an Islamic source, I’d like you to provide a reference so that we can understand the context and what the person meant by “uncreated”.
Nay, but it is a glorious Qur’an, On a guarded tablet (Quran 85:21-22)
The source of the Quran and all of the heavenly books is the “guarded tablet”. There are many interpretations of what it is.
Some traditions say it is a metaphor for an the soul, others say it is a book in which God’s words are preserved or protected from change or corruption. Never the less, all of the traditions affirm the tablet has been created.
Ibn Abbas reports that the Prophet said, God created the Tablet from a white pearl. It’s two surfaces are of green emerald, and its writing is of light. Source: Majlisi. Biharul Anwar Vol.54 Page 376
The Shi’ite imams also considered pillars of learning in early Islam according to sunnis as well as Shi’ites have said the tablet is created. The well known ascetic Sufyan al-Thawri asked the sixth Imam, Ja’far al-sadiq, about the verse “Nun. By the pen and that which they write (therewith)” (Quran 68:1) . Sufyan relates that imam Ja’far spoke concerning this verse as follows:
“Nun is a river in the Garden. God said to it, ‘Harden!’ So it hardened and became ink. Then God said to the pen, “write!” So the Pen wrote in the guarded tablet everything that is and will be until the day of resurrection…” Source: Ibid. Page 368
Early Muslim philosopher Ibn Al’arabi states that the Pen and tablet is a reference to the Intellect and the soul. The intellect being God’s first creation and the Soul his second.
The relationship between the Intellect and the soul is like the relationship between the pen and the tablet, where the tablet is subservient to the pen, it is passive and receives whatever the pen has to write.
Ibn al-Arabi writes:
Since God created this First intellect as a Pen, it sought through its own reality a place for its reflectivity to write, since its a pen. From this search arose the guarded tablet that is, the soul…The intellect cast to the soul everything within itself to the day of resurrection, inscribed and arranged…
Source: Ibn Al-arabi, Futuhat vol.2 428.8
The Quran therefore is a created thing and not ‘uncreated’ because it is derived from the guarded tablet. But more importantly the guarded tablet itself is a result of the pen’s writing or the intellects imposition. As such the intellect has a high status and is praised both in the Quran and the hadith literature. And if God is going to reveal a doctrine for me to follow, this doctrine must be understandable. This is contrary to what the idea of the trinity teaches.
The second point is that the created v.s. uncreated nature of the Quran is not a doctrine on which we base our faith in Islam. God did not say you can not be a Muslim if you don’t believe in this.
On the contrary this the case with Christianity. Can you be a catholic without believing in the trinity?
I
inJESUS
Guest
K
Khalfan
Guest
Didn’t we talk a lot on this? And didn’t I say, it is the message/content of Quran is eternal since the sorce is the wisdom of God? Didn’t I say it is not the arabic words, ink and paper which is eternal; and didn’t you agree on that? You were trying and still yet to prove that Wisdom and uttered words are the same. You said Jesus (pbuh) is the Word/Wisdom like both are same, but not proved.
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inJESUS
Guest
no i did not say that. I made a distinction between the eternal word of God and uttered words.The eternal Word God is present with God regardless of whether it is uttered or not because it is a quality of God that does NOT depend on creation to exist.
i’ll quote again the Islamic passage inserting the same of Jesus :
“And know that the phrase ‘Kalām Allah’ (Allah’s Word or Jesus) is applied to the beginningless unuttered speech (kalām nafsī qadīm), **which happens to be a quality (sifah) present with His being (dhat) **– High is He.
This posting sums up the doctrine of the massive majority of the Christians concerning the pre-existent, pre-eternal, beginningless, and uncreated nature of the Divine Speech Allah Most High has named Jesus.
If you burn the Quran, it does not mean you burnt the eternal Word of Allah which is INDEPENDANT from creatures because it exists eternally with Allah before any creation.
the Bible clearly says in the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the ord IS God. No polytheism, but pure monotheism.
K
Khalfan
Guest
Only Mohamed? Entire Christianity for last 2000 years couldn’t understand trinity. You are a Christian, right?
S
scapularkid8
Guest
Oh! So that’s why we defined the qualities, nature, definition, and philosophy of the Trinity at the Council of Nicea in 787…hmmmm we must be confused!
K
Khalfan
Guest
Seems you miss to understand what you are saying. Jesus (pbuh) and Father is supposed to be one. Jesus (pbuh) is the Wisdom of God which is God itself since they both are one eternal being. The concept ‘Father’ and the concept ‘Wisdom’ both are eternal, So both are of one God. You contradicted yourself two times here.
- You seperated Father and Wisdom by saying Jesus/Wisdom is not the Father. (If they both are eternal, then there are 2 eternal being/God which proves the islamic claim of Christian belief of three Gods, since the same applies to Spirit as well)
- Father and Wisdom is supposed to be of the same being. One cannot be the boss or God of the other. If it can, then one is more powerful than the other which ultimatly proves one powerless God and a powerful God.
How can Father be the head of his own Wisdom or his own Spirit? You are saying One is the slave/subordinate of the other which again says 2 powerless part of God to one powerful part of God.
There is point in asking who prayed to God. Because Jesus (pbuh) is the Wisdom of God which is God itself. Why is it depended on the father which is God too?
What is the function of father and why do they have to be seperate to fulfill the functions as God? Why do you limit the ability of God?
Is it the same for Wisdom too, that ‘wherever the Wisdom is, there is God’? If so, then why Jesus (pbuh) asked to be saved from cross since he knew the plan of God?
For that he was God while he was a man.
How can anyone pay for the sin of others? How can it be accepted by God, since the same God taght, ‘the soul that sin should die’ -Eze18:20?
It proves that, it was not Jesus (pbuh) on the cross.does the complaint of Jesus prove that he was not crucified?
Why he had to pray to be saved from cross since he himself is God and he can do whatever he want?
In what sense you said he was quoting psalms?
K
Khalfan
Guest
Check your catechism, what is mentioned in it about trinity.
S
scapularkid8
Guest
not the point…
K
Khalfan
Guest
My dear, do we Muslims separate his wisdom from him? Did we ever say that Wisdom alone came on earth in a book? No. You must understand. I know that it is your requirment to equalise Jesus and Quran But it is not. Quran is not the wisdom of God that came on earth, Quran is NOT THE UN-UTTERED WORDS OF GOD but the uttered words of God. But the message is eternal since the source is the Wisdom of God which is a quality of God present with God. Jesus (pbuh) was more than just a man. He was not the Wisdom of God as there were many things that he was unaware of. Wisdom of God is OMNIPOTENT. Please let it be known to you.
Quran is not the WHOLE WISDOM of GOD, but just a MICRO PORTION of it. The Message in the Quran do exist eternal IN the WISDOM of GOD. You cannot call Quran as Wisdom of God since it is not the WHOLE of it. You cannot call Jesus (pbuh) either as Wisdom of God since he too had limit in his knowledge.
That si just a claim. I can see what you believe.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
Khalfan makes good points, I must say.
Thanks
I have Quran, the pristine Word of God, the most secure and protected REVEALED book, it has no different versions, just one version in Arabic, all the world over. When Quran is there no need of any other Book, all spiritual needs of humanity are satisfied with Quran, full with Wisdom, rational, logical and reasonable arguments, a peace loving and peace promoting Book, indeed. If Quran makes a claim, then Quran supports it with reasons.Nothing of this sort with Bible, claims, claims, claims - - - - and claims ad infinitum.
S
Seeker
Guest
Hello All , here’s an article regarding the Holy Trinity. I was doing some research on this doctrine, and I came accorss this article, but unfortunately, I donot have the source for i
t. I like this article becuase it describes the concept of what the Holy Trinity is in layman terms, without watering down the true meaning of it, and it also talks about why this is one of Christianity’s most difficult doctrines. Here’s the article.
The Trinity is Christianity’s most difficult doctrine. It is also Christianity’s most defining doctrine, clearly setting apart orthodoxy from heresy (see part B). Herein is still another attempt to make plain what was meant to be a wonderful new way of understanding and relating to God and yet has become a stumbling-block for the ages. Note: The style below is conversational, not third person. My apologies to the academics.
Question: Can God talk to you? Do you believe that God is able to speak to you in a audible voice from Heaven? No, I am not asking does He talk to you. I am asking can He talk to you? Well, yes, of course He can. He talked to the prophets of old, and He can talk to anyone today, if He so chooses. It is a foolish question.
Question: Can God talk to me? Now I can read some of your minds… “No, God doesn’t talk to sinners.” Sure He does. He talked to Cain who was about to kill his brother. To Balaam who was about to curse . God talks to sinners today through Scripture, through the created order, through a smitten conscience… in many ways and at many times. But the question, again, is not does He, but can He? Of course He can. If He wants to.
Now for the really hard question: Can God talk to you and me at the same time?? Hmm? Well, duh, of course He can. He can talk to everyone on the planet at the same time, if He wants to. He can talk to everyone in the Universe at the same time, if He wants to. He can hear the prayers of a hundred million saints, all at the same time… if He wants to (and He wants to). That’s why He is God, and we are not. That’s why Job had to confess to his inadequacy and creatureliness (and shame and repentance for reproaching the Almighty) when God plied him with questions too wonderful for him to understand, let alone answer.
Now for the trick question: Can God be in heaven, ruling the Universe, knowing what is in every heart, AND, be incarnate in a Galilean carpenter 2000 years ago? No, I am not asking you did He, but can He. If you answered to preceding question, ‘yes’, then this question must also receive a, ‘yes’. That’s why this is a trick question.
Who is like God? Who can even begin to compare themselves to the Almighty, the Creator, the Infinite, the All-Powerful? Is anything too hard for God? Now you may answer that God never did ‘that’; that Jesus is not the only begotten (= “one of a kind”, “there-won’t-be-another-one”, “unique”) Son of God. You can reject His divinity, or His humanity, or His Messiahship, or even that He ever existed. This is your present permission to do so. But can God do this? Yes, of course He can. If He wants to. He can even indwell prophets of old (and believers today) with His Holy Spirit. If He wants to.
The concept of the Trinity is not so much how God can be three and one at the same time, but how God wants to relate to His creation (us) if we will let Him. As Almighty God, He deserves our worship, to be high above us, worthy of awe and fear, immortal, invisible, inconceivable. The True and Living God is just as everyone is afraid He will be: Righteous, Just, unstoppable in power, knowing every thought and motive… Holy. But, if we will accept Jesus as Savior and Lord, then God, in the Person of His Son, also can be our friend as well. Someone whom we can relate to: a human, with a face and a voice and a smile. Blasphemy? Could be. We’ll all find out in eternity, won’t we? And woe is us if we got it wrong, agreed?
t. I like this article becuase it describes the concept of what the Holy Trinity is in layman terms, without watering down the true meaning of it, and it also talks about why this is one of Christianity’s most difficult doctrines. Here’s the article.The Trinity is Christianity’s most difficult doctrine. It is also Christianity’s most defining doctrine, clearly setting apart orthodoxy from heresy (see part B). Herein is still another attempt to make plain what was meant to be a wonderful new way of understanding and relating to God and yet has become a stumbling-block for the ages. Note: The style below is conversational, not third person. My apologies to the academics.
Question: Can God talk to you? Do you believe that God is able to speak to you in a audible voice from Heaven? No, I am not asking does He talk to you. I am asking can He talk to you? Well, yes, of course He can. He talked to the prophets of old, and He can talk to anyone today, if He so chooses. It is a foolish question.
Question: Can God talk to me? Now I can read some of your minds… “No, God doesn’t talk to sinners.” Sure He does. He talked to Cain who was about to kill his brother. To Balaam who was about to curse . God talks to sinners today through Scripture, through the created order, through a smitten conscience… in many ways and at many times. But the question, again, is not does He, but can He? Of course He can. If He wants to.
Now for the really hard question: Can God talk to you and me at the same time?? Hmm? Well, duh, of course He can. He can talk to everyone on the planet at the same time, if He wants to. He can talk to everyone in the Universe at the same time, if He wants to. He can hear the prayers of a hundred million saints, all at the same time… if He wants to (and He wants to). That’s why He is God, and we are not. That’s why Job had to confess to his inadequacy and creatureliness (and shame and repentance for reproaching the Almighty) when God plied him with questions too wonderful for him to understand, let alone answer.
Now for the trick question: Can God be in heaven, ruling the Universe, knowing what is in every heart, AND, be incarnate in a Galilean carpenter 2000 years ago? No, I am not asking you did He, but can He. If you answered to preceding question, ‘yes’, then this question must also receive a, ‘yes’. That’s why this is a trick question.
Who is like God? Who can even begin to compare themselves to the Almighty, the Creator, the Infinite, the All-Powerful? Is anything too hard for God? Now you may answer that God never did ‘that’; that Jesus is not the only begotten (= “one of a kind”, “there-won’t-be-another-one”, “unique”) Son of God. You can reject His divinity, or His humanity, or His Messiahship, or even that He ever existed. This is your present permission to do so. But can God do this? Yes, of course He can. If He wants to. He can even indwell prophets of old (and believers today) with His Holy Spirit. If He wants to.
The concept of the Trinity is not so much how God can be three and one at the same time, but how God wants to relate to His creation (us) if we will let Him. As Almighty God, He deserves our worship, to be high above us, worthy of awe and fear, immortal, invisible, inconceivable. The True and Living God is just as everyone is afraid He will be: Righteous, Just, unstoppable in power, knowing every thought and motive… Holy. But, if we will accept Jesus as Savior and Lord, then God, in the Person of His Son, also can be our friend as well. Someone whom we can relate to: a human, with a face and a voice and a smile. Blasphemy? Could be. We’ll all find out in eternity, won’t we? And woe is us if we got it wrong, agreed?
S
Seeker
Guest
Continued…
But what about the third Person of the Trinity? Truly, God also wants to live IN us as well. He wants to change our lives, to help us overcome sin, to show Himself strong when we are weak, to get praise for His Namesake when we live for Him and love for Him and forgive for Him and die for Him. And that’s just some of the things the God’s Holy Spirit will do to us when we have Him living in us for having believed in God’s Son unto salvation. It is the definition of being ‘born again’ (= regeneration, becoming a new creature). And be mindful, the Holy Spirit also convicts sinners of sin, produces “fruits” in response to obedient living, equips the church by giving “gifts” to her members, and, preeminently, glorifies the Son.
This is the Trinity. It is orthodox Christianity. And, it is much more than all other religions have ever conceived. You can reject it. You can kill us, if you want to. (Though one wonders why, if we are going to get in so much trouble with God for promoting a lie, death in this life is supposed to be so fearful? Eternal Death is a lot more scary!) But this is what the implications of being a Christian are, whether we understand it or not. The Trinity is not a theological construct for portraying God in an obscure manner. It is God relating to His creation (us). God above us. God beside us. God within us. Interestingly, this exhausts the ways we can be related to as creatures. As creatures (conscious beings), we have only 3 ways that we can relate and respond and interact with other “beings” or things: 1) As concepts or ideals = above us], 2) Experientially, as being part of our interaction with things external to us = beside us], and 3) Internally, as being within our psyche and sense of self = within us]. A tract will follow to illustrate this.
How does God do this? We don’t know. How can He be three and one at the same time? Can’t even begin to guess. But we do have an everyday example that most everyone can understand: When we are a spouse, a parent, and a child (tho I prefer using ‘employee’ instead of child) all at the same time. We don’t talk (or relate) to our children in the same way we talk to our spouses or parents (or employers). We are, as it were, “different” people in such relationships. Nevertheless, we are still just one person. And here’s where the analogy breaks down. We can’t be a spouse and a child and a parent all to the same person. But God is so with us. That’s the Trinity.
But what about the third Person of the Trinity? Truly, God also wants to live IN us as well. He wants to change our lives, to help us overcome sin, to show Himself strong when we are weak, to get praise for His Namesake when we live for Him and love for Him and forgive for Him and die for Him. And that’s just some of the things the God’s Holy Spirit will do to us when we have Him living in us for having believed in God’s Son unto salvation. It is the definition of being ‘born again’ (= regeneration, becoming a new creature). And be mindful, the Holy Spirit also convicts sinners of sin, produces “fruits” in response to obedient living, equips the church by giving “gifts” to her members, and, preeminently, glorifies the Son.
This is the Trinity. It is orthodox Christianity. And, it is much more than all other religions have ever conceived. You can reject it. You can kill us, if you want to. (Though one wonders why, if we are going to get in so much trouble with God for promoting a lie, death in this life is supposed to be so fearful? Eternal Death is a lot more scary!) But this is what the implications of being a Christian are, whether we understand it or not. The Trinity is not a theological construct for portraying God in an obscure manner. It is God relating to His creation (us). God above us. God beside us. God within us. Interestingly, this exhausts the ways we can be related to as creatures. As creatures (conscious beings), we have only 3 ways that we can relate and respond and interact with other “beings” or things: 1) As concepts or ideals = above us], 2) Experientially, as being part of our interaction with things external to us = beside us], and 3) Internally, as being within our psyche and sense of self = within us]. A tract will follow to illustrate this.
How does God do this? We don’t know. How can He be three and one at the same time? Can’t even begin to guess. But we do have an everyday example that most everyone can understand: When we are a spouse, a parent, and a child (tho I prefer using ‘employee’ instead of child) all at the same time. We don’t talk (or relate) to our children in the same way we talk to our spouses or parents (or employers). We are, as it were, “different” people in such relationships. Nevertheless, we are still just one person. And here’s where the analogy breaks down. We can’t be a spouse and a child and a parent all to the same person. But God is so with us. That’s the Trinity.
S
Seeker
Guest
Continued…
The Conversation
One spring day Christian was sitting on a bench meditating. He looked out at the green grass and tall, full trees and thought, “How beautiful. How peaceful.” He looked up at the blue skies with its mighty clouds sailing by and thought, “How majestic. How grand.” The sun shown down and warmed his face and his body, while the cool breeze skipped over his legs and arms.
And God spoke to him and said, “Good morning, Christian! Admiring my handiwork?” “Oh, yes, God! How wonderfully You do all things! My heart is full to overflowing with songs of praise, tho these are but just echoes of the praises that Thy creation sings for having been robed so splendidly.”
And Christian worshipped God.
And as Christian sat there worshipping, he felt a nudge at his side. He turned and looked, and to his surprise, it was God! “God, where did You come from? I was worshipping You just now, even as You had just spoken to me from above.” “I’ve been here all the time, Christian. You just didn’t notice me.” “But aren’t You in heaven, from whence having just spoken to Thy servant to delight his heart?” “ I am still in heaven, Christian, and your worship is appropriate, for I am God. But I am also your companion, indeed, your true friend. A friend so true that I laid down my life for you. I am with you always, and there is no power in heaven or on earth that can separate you from my love.”
And Christian talked with his friend.
And as Christian was talking to God, he felt a warm glow in his heart. And he felt a tingling in his hands and limbs. And his mind became full and his eyes saw clearly. And he said, “God, You are within me! But I was just talking with You as You sat next to me.” “I am still beside you, Christian, just as I am still in heaven. But I have always been within you, too. You just never noticed me. I am your strength and wisdom. I am your holy living and your zeal for my Namesake. Feel my power and quench it not, for it is your promised gift to all eternity.”
And Christian wept for having so kind a God to call his own.
The Conversation
One spring day Christian was sitting on a bench meditating. He looked out at the green grass and tall, full trees and thought, “How beautiful. How peaceful.” He looked up at the blue skies with its mighty clouds sailing by and thought, “How majestic. How grand.” The sun shown down and warmed his face and his body, while the cool breeze skipped over his legs and arms.
And God spoke to him and said, “Good morning, Christian! Admiring my handiwork?” “Oh, yes, God! How wonderfully You do all things! My heart is full to overflowing with songs of praise, tho these are but just echoes of the praises that Thy creation sings for having been robed so splendidly.”
And Christian worshipped God.
And as Christian sat there worshipping, he felt a nudge at his side. He turned and looked, and to his surprise, it was God! “God, where did You come from? I was worshipping You just now, even as You had just spoken to me from above.” “I’ve been here all the time, Christian. You just didn’t notice me.” “But aren’t You in heaven, from whence having just spoken to Thy servant to delight his heart?” “ I am still in heaven, Christian, and your worship is appropriate, for I am God. But I am also your companion, indeed, your true friend. A friend so true that I laid down my life for you. I am with you always, and there is no power in heaven or on earth that can separate you from my love.”
And Christian talked with his friend.
And as Christian was talking to God, he felt a warm glow in his heart. And he felt a tingling in his hands and limbs. And his mind became full and his eyes saw clearly. And he said, “God, You are within me! But I was just talking with You as You sat next to me.” “I am still beside you, Christian, just as I am still in heaven. But I have always been within you, too. You just never noticed me. I am your strength and wisdom. I am your holy living and your zeal for my Namesake. Feel my power and quench it not, for it is your promised gift to all eternity.”
And Christian wept for having so kind a God to call his own.
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