Muslims, Jesus, and Alcohol

[ralphinal]

Lucky you didn’t die from alcohol poisoning or kill someone drunk driving. It’s a foolish test and thing to try to get a handle on when you can just avoid it all together.

Now you are judging my situation. I never drove drunk, I was never close to alcohol poisoning. I was young and immature.

You still haven’t answered about free will and also why God would totally ban something that has benefits.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Now you are judging my situation. I never drove drunk, I was never close to alcohol poisoning. I was young and immature.

You still haven’t answered about free will and also why God would totally ban something that has benefits.

I don’t believe in free will but God’s will, that’s my ideal.

I don’t believe it is banned for people who can say 100% they will never use it to get drunk. Both you and I already admit that we can’t say that, we already have. So it’s already caused problems for us, a drunken mind at the least.

Alcohol as a problem at some point is the norm according to everything I have seen from people who use it. So then it isn’t for most people.

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t believe in free will but God’s will, that’s my ideal.

I don’t believe it is banned for people who can say 100% they will never use it to get drunk. Both you and I already admit that we can’t say that, we already have. So it’s already caused problems for us, a drunken mind at the least.

Alcohol as a problem at some point is the norm according to everything I have seen from people who use it. So then it isn’t for most people.

But God gave us free will. He wants us to choose to love Him and have Him as a part of our lives. He wants us to want it not because of fear of hell or punishment, but because we want to.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

But God gave us free will. He wants us to choose to love Him and have Him as a part of our lives. He wants us to want it not because of fear of hell or punishment, but because we want to.

Why can’t you just not want to drink to avoid getting drunk and doing ungodly things or having ungodly thoughts?

 

[ralphinal]

Why can’t you just not want to drink to avoid getting drunk and doing ungodly things or having ungodly thoughts?

And why can’t you have a drink and not get drunk and not do unGodly things or have unGodly thoughts?

It seems like God doesn’t trust us to be adults.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

And why can’t you have a drink and not get drunk and not do unGodly things or have unGodly thoughts?

It seems like God doesn’t trust us to be adults.

You take a chance that you will get drunk, it’s like Russian roulette. If you don’t really need to drink it’s better not to chance it. Can you say for sure you will never get drunk again if you continue to drink?

 

[ralphinal]

You take a chance that you will get drunk, it’s like Russian roulette. If you don’t really need to drink it’s better not to chance it. Can you say for sure you will never get drunk again if you continue to drink?

I feel confident in it. I did not ever have a drinking problem.

I know this. Jesus drank. Science shows that there are numerous health benefits to moderate drinking. St. Paul encouraged a little wine for teh stomache.

You know, the free wil thing would make a good thread if I thought someone would respond

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I feel confident in it. I did not ever have a drinking problem.

I know this. Jesus drank. Science shows that there are numerous health benefits to moderate drinking. St. Paul encouraged a little wine for teh stomache.

You know, the free wil thing would make a good thread if I thought someone would respond

I just explained in the i am an atheist thread how there is no such thing as free will.

 

[ralphinal]

I just explained in the i am an atheist thread how there is no such thing as free will.

Ok, the link from that thread is not exactly germain, but I will address it. If you reduce human behavior to stimulus response or geneticly coded instinct, you remove the things that make us human, such as the ability to contemplate the eternal. To say that I do not have free will as all of my actions are the result of neuron interaction is an over simplification. How is the final decision made? How are the various stimuli introduced? How are paradigms formed or changed? Besides, if you take that approach, why not take the next step: it is not the cells that matter but the release of the neurotransmitters. So we are the result of chemical interactions. In that case, we are the result of the interaction of charged particles. Therefore, we are simply responding to field theory. You shoud be able to predict, with a high level of certainty, all human behavior, as you can an atom or a molecule or a cell or an animal.

Now, let us reintroduce God into the equation. We should all choose to do God’s will. Christians understand that God wants us to choose to follow him. It seems like Muslims, due to the slave/master understanding, do not see it as a choice at all. If that correct? Does a Muslim not have the ability to choose his own path in the world, even if that means not believing in God at all? I am not saying that these choices do not have reprocussions, I am saying that we can make them on our own.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Ok, the link from that thread is not exactly germain, but I will address it. If you reduce human behavior to stimulus response or geneticly coded instinct, you remove the things that make us human, such as the ability to contemplate the eternal. To say that I do not have free will as all of my actions are the result of neuron interaction is an over simplification. How is the final decision made? How are the various stimuli introduced? How are paradigms formed or changed? Besides, if you take that approach, why not take the next step: it is not the cells that matter but the release of the neurotransmitters. So we are the result of chemical interactions. In that case, we are the result of the interaction of charged particles. Therefore, we are simply responding to field theory. You shoud be able to predict, with a high level of certainty, all human behavior, as you can an atom or a molecule or a cell or an animal.

What else is there but what your brain is made up of? You are just data that starts with what your ancestors give you then grows with each thing you experience.

Now, let us reintroduce God into the equation. We should all choose to do God’s will. Christians understand that God wants us to choose to follow him. It seems like Muslims, due to the slave/master understanding, do not see it as a choice at all. If that correct? Does a Muslim not have the ability to choose his own path in the world, even if that means not believing in God at all? I am not saying that these choices do not have reprocussions, I am saying that we can make them on our own.

When sin/Satan is defeated and God is there in New Jerusalem, there will be no more choice. That’s what Heaven is, you just do God’s Will. But does that make you a slave to God? Maybe, but is that bad?

If God already has your life planned out and already knows where you are going for eternity, do you really have a choice? God gives us the illusion of choice so we can experience what He experiences, since we are made in His likeness, but really, nothing happens unless God allows it.

You can get mushy about altruism and all that but it’s just an illusion, it makes you feel important like you’ve really done something all by yourself, when in reality God gets all the credit for any good we do and you’ve done nothing. Since as Jesus said, only God is good.

So when you get down to it, you must do the right thing because God says so. Of course with it you may have feelings of love and things like that, but they are incidental and also a gift from God, not generated because we are just so good and loving and wonderful all on our own because of some kind of choice or free will we have heroically made.

 

[Reuben_J]

Ok, the link from that thread is not exactly germain, but I will address it. If you reduce human behavior to stimulus response or geneticly coded instinct, you remove the things that make us human, such as the ability to contemplate the eternal. To say that I do not have free will as all of my actions are the result of neuron interaction is an over simplification. How is the final decision made? How are the various stimuli introduced? How are paradigms formed or changed? Besides, if you take that approach, why not take the next step: it is not the cells that matter but the release of the neurotransmitters. So we are the result of chemical interactions. In that case, we are the result of the interaction of charged particles. Therefore, we are simply responding to field theory. You shoud be able to predict, with a high level of certainty, all human behavior, as you can an atom or a molecule or a cell or an animal.

This is some of the very informative post I’ve read here, though I really need to crack my head to understand what’s said there.

Now, let us reintroduce God into the equation. We should all choose to do God’s will. Christians understand that God wants us to choose to follow him. It seems like Muslims, due to the slave/master understanding, do not see it as a choice at all. If that correct? Does a Muslim not have the ability to choose his own path in the world, even if that means not believing in God at all? I am not saying that these choices do not have reprocussions, I am saying that we can make them on our own.

Free will is the ultimate love of God. He is omnipotent, he can do anything at all, yet he gives man free will to choose his destiny. God does not want that is not from our hearts. He wants our hearts where we make our own choice.

What is the satisfaction if human obeys God because he is forced to do so, where God dictates everything in his life? In my opinion we don’t need a God to do that. Any do’s and don’ts book would be good enough to guide us in our eating habit and relationship. In fact humans could have stayed in the Garden of Eden if they were not given free will and the availability of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But we want free will, an element that makes us humans and differentiate us from non-living things.

Funny though, it is the Devil that enslaves and prohibits us from exercising our free will. Once entered into his bondage he will not let us get out. Once we sell our souls to him, he will be coming for payback time. Ah, the contrast between God and Satan.

 

[Booklover]

I just explained in the i am an atheist thread how there is no such thing as free will.

What a tyrant you make God out to be! He is a rational being with free will who created mankind supposedly in “his image”, gave us a brain to think with and to reason with, and then refused to let us even think or make any choices on our own! If that is what he wanted, he should have created mindless robots!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

I have a philosophical question that may need its own thread, but I’ll put it here.

Science is showing that moderate consuption of alcohol is good for you, say 2 glasses of wine a night. A new study just shows that exercise when coupled with such consumption of alcohol has greater benefits than exercise alone. If this is true, why did Allah prohibit completely something that is good for you? Why not limit it? Why did he not say that a little wine is good for you?

Muhammad advocated drinking camel urine.

Vickie

 

[ralphinal]

Muhammad advocated drinking camel urine.

Vickie

ewwwww…but it was non-fermented, right?

 

[ralphinal]

What else is there but what your brain is made up of? You are just data that starts with what your ancestors give you then grows with each thing you experience.

There is truth in this, but it does not take into account the wide range of thought processes that each human has unique to them. One quick example from the animal kingdom. Say you have a lab mouse. You cause an external stimulus to scare him. First, he freezes, then he looks around, then he grooms himself, then he looks around, then he grooms himself, and then he returns to previous programming. This is a universal response. Unless forced to do soemthing else, like run, this is what they all do. Do the same thing to any number of Humans. You will not get the same response from any of them. You may be able to clump similar responses into groups, but everyone will be different.

When sin/Satan is defeated and God is there in New Jerusalem, there will be no more choice. That’s what Heaven is, you just do God’s Will. But does that make you a slave to God? Maybe, but is that bad?

True, in heaven our will is fixed on God alone. IT is not a slave type thing. Without temptaions or sin to distract us, we will only want to serve God. It is the final choice, one that we make as we live in this world. We choose to serve God for all eternity by our actions in this world.

If God already has your life planned out and already knows where you are going for eternity, do you really have a choice? God gives us the illusion of choice so we can experience what He experiences, since we are made in His likeness, but really, nothing happens unless God allows it.

Ok, now you are getting into predestination. God knows what we will choose, but He lets us choose it. Is it an illusion? No, because we have the choice in real time where God sees it outside of time. True, God allows all things, but the choices we make determines which road we take.

You can get mushy about altruism and all that but it’s just an illusion, it makes you feel important like you’ve really done something all by yourself, when in reality God gets all the credit for any good we do and you’ve done nothing. Since as Jesus said, only God is good.

God gets the credit that we allow. We can deflect the credit to ourselves. That is a choice as well. Many people do good so that others say “Look at the good they do.” That is not the Christian attitude. We should give all credit to God, and mean it.

So when you get down to it, you must do the right thing because God says so. Of course with it you may have feelings of love and things like that, but they are incidental and also a gift from God, not generated because we are just so good and loving and wonderful all on our own because of some kind of choice or free will we have heroically made.

SO you are saying that people do not choose to sin or that they do not choose to follow God at all?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

What a tyrant you make God out to be! He is a rational being with free will who created mankind supposedly in “his image”, gave us a brain to think with and to reason with, and then refused to let us even think or make any choices on our own! If that is what he wanted, he should have created mindless robots!

Vickie

In Heaven you won’t have any choice as such to sin, since sin won’t exist anymore. Is that bad?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

There is truth in this, but it does not take into account the wide range of thought processes that each human has unique to them. One quick example from the animal kingdom. Say you have a lab mouse. You cause an external stimulus to scare him. First, he freezes, then he looks around, then he grooms himself, then he looks around, then he grooms himself, and then he returns to previous programming. This is a universal response. Unless forced to do soemthing else, like run, this is what they all do. Do the same thing to any number of Humans. You will not get the same response from any of them. You may be able to clump similar responses into groups, but everyone will be different.

You are preprogrammed with certain behaviors, and then you learn others by experience, your actions are influenced by both. But it all boils down to the forces of nature causing you to do what you do, which is God that controls you.

True, in heaven our will is fixed on God alone. IT is not a slave type thing. Without temptaions or sin to distract us, we will only want to serve God. It is the final choice, one that we make as we live in this world. We choose to serve God for all eternity by our actions in this world.

Ok, now you are getting into predestination. God knows what we will choose, but He lets us choose it. Is it an illusion? No, because we have the choice in real time where God sees it outside of time. True, God allows all things, but the choices we make determines which road we take.

How do you really choose in the ultimate sense if the elect are already predestined for Heaven?

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God gets the credit that we allow. We can deflect the credit to ourselves. That is a choice as well. Many people do good so that others say “Look at the good they do.” That is not the Christian attitude. We should give all credit to God, and mean it.

So then is it a choice that you do good, or a gift that God gives you to make you do good?

SO you are saying that people do not choose to sin or that they do not choose to follow God at all?

We have the illusion of it, but God has already decided who will follow Him and who will not. Do you really have free will if God decides you are going to follow Him, are you able to resist that with your will? Of course not, you are going to end up following Him one way or another, even if God causes you to be thrown into the sea and be swallowed up by a fish or something like that.

God provides the power for your mind so of course He knows how tweak that power to make it do what He wants. The result appears to be your own decision but it really isn’t, it’s God’s.

When you realize all this, that’s when you really start to know all you are and know is a gift from God.

 

[ralphinal]

You are preprogrammed with certain behaviors, and then you learn others by experience, your actions are influenced by both. But it all boils down to the forces of nature causing you to do what you do, which is God that controls you.

How do you really choose in the ultimate sense if the elect are already predestined for Heaven?

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So then is it a choice that you do good, or a gift that God gives you to make you do good?

We have the illusion of it, but God has already decided who will follow Him and who will not. Do you really have free will if God decides you are going to follow Him, are you able to resist that with your will? Of course not, you are going to end up following Him one way or another, even if God causes you to be thrown into the sea and be swallowed up by a fish or something like that.

God provides the power for your mind so of course He knows how tweak that power to make it do what He wants. The result appears to be your own decision but it really isn’t, it’s God’s.

When you realize all this, that’s when you really start to know all you are and know is a gift from God.

So why even try? Why even make an effort? If I am going one way or the other no matter what I do, why not run buck wild all over the place? If God intends on having me with him, I will be saved in the end. If not, why sacrifice? I might as well enjoy the ride if it doesn’t make any difference in the end.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

So why even try? Why even make an effort? If I am going one way or the other no matter what I do, why not run buck wild all over the place? If God intends on having me with him, I will be saved in the end. If not, why sacrifice? I might as well enjoy the ride if it doesn’t make any difference in the end.

You will do what God wants you to do. If you are meant to lose your mind and go sin freely then you will. If you are meant to stay on the path you’re on then you will.

Do you think you should go sin now, would you be happier? If not then why does it matter, isn’t it enough to enjoy the experience God has created for you?

 

[ralphinal]

You will do what God wants you to do. If you are meant to lose your mind and go sin freely then you will. If you are meant to stay on the path you’re on then you will.

Do you think you should go sin now, would you be happier? If not then why does it matter, isn’t it enough to enjoy the experience God has created for you?

Because we are to first deny ourselves, then take up our cross and follow Jesus. The hole in your logic is that there is no reason to do that if you will end up where God ordained you to be no matter what. We are not robots controlled by God. We can even choose to deny his existance.