Muslims: let's reason

[inJESUS]

[quote="Catholic_Dude, post:20, topic:54317"]
The Bible explicitly teaches many prophets were killed...but does the Koran teach many prophets were killed before Jesus?

the Quran teaches that as well that many prophets were killed and that ALL prophets before Muhammad died. But since this thread is about the crucifixion, i’ll not adress Jesus’ death in islamic pt of view.

As for why another had to die, a simple possible answer is that man who did die was truly a criminal.

the person allegedly died INSTEAD of Jesus.

[/quote]

 

[Catholic_Dude]

the Quran teaches that as well that many prophets were killed and that ALL prophets before Muhammad died. But since this thread is about the crucifixion, i’ll not adress Jesus’ death in islamic pt of view.

the person allegedly died INSTEAD of Jesus.

AH! Now I see what your saying, Jesus should have been killed. The cross story sits alone and meaningless without Jesus. The idea that a criminal who should already get the death penalty was killed INSTEAD of Jesus leaves one wondering what the big deal of the cross is, its no big deal.

 

[inJESUS]

AH! Now I see what your saying, Jesus should have been killed. The cross story sits alone and meaningless without Jesus. The idea that a criminal who should already get the death penalty was killed INSTEAD of Jesus leaves one wondering what the big deal of the cross is, its no big deal.

well some Muslims say : Allah wanted to spare Jesus this kind of death so someone else died who is this someone else? not known,what’s important is that it was not Jesus…it’s this “someone else” logic that i don’t get…obviously many Muslims reject it as ridiculous, so they adopt the other choice : he was crucified but did not die. However, the majority believe in the substitution theory that i don’t get the logic behind.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

well some Muslims say : Allah wanted to spare Jesus this kind of death so someone else died who is this someone else? not known,what’s important is that it was not Jesus…it’s this “someone else” logic that i don’t get…obviously many Muslims reject it as ridiculous, so they adopt the other choice : he was crucified but did not die. However, the majority believe in the substitution theory that i don’t get the logic behind.

Some say he WAS crucified but didnt die? Then how did someone else die instead of Him?

What does the Koran itself say, thats the real question. Either He was crucified or someone else was on the cross. Do know where this is written about?

 

[inJESUS]

Some say he WAS crucified but didnt die? Then how did someone else die instead of Him?

there is no agreement on what happened to Jesus; some believe the substitution theory, others the swoon theory…some don’t even like to talk about it since they can’t find a reasonable answer…

What does the Koran itself say, thats the real question. Either He was crucified or someone else was on the cross. Do know where this is written about?

 

[Dale_M]

because Muhammad said so in his book. Mainstream muslims reject it; Ahmadiyya and some others interpret the Quranic verse as such : Jesus was crucified but did not die…

I don’t mean to be a pest, but could I bother you for a citation? Saying that Jesus was not crucified is a rather remarkable claim.

 

[inJESUS]

I don’t mean to be a pest, but could I bother you for a citation? Saying that Jesus was not crucified is a rather remarkable claim.

and their (Jews) saying : we killed Christ Jesus, son of Mary, The messenger of Allah - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so; and those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; For surely they killed him not; but Allah took him up unto Himself; and Allah is ever mighty, wise.”

 

[Dale_M]

Oh, okay… that would be 4:157-8. My reading of it, which granted is uneducated about Islam, is not that they are denying the actual crucifixion but whether Jesus died while crucified.

I get the sense that what the Quran is saying that his would-be killers did not have final victory over Jesus, but that Allah intervened to rescue him.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html

 

[inJESUS]

Oh, okay… that would be 4:157-8. My reading of it, which granted is uneducated about Islam, is not that they are denying the actual crucifixion but whether Jesus died while crucified.

so when you read it, you understood that Jesus was crucified indeed?

I get the sense that what the Quran is saying that his would-be killers did not have final victory over Jesus, but that Allah intervened to rescue him.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html

 

[rbarcia]

We all know that Muslims do not believe in Jesus’ crucifixion. Rather, they believe someone else was crucified.

question : why ?

My understanding of Muslim teaching is God replaced Jesus with Judas, and it was Judas who was crucified. Jesus was taken to heaven and Judas died on the cross. I do not know where in the Koran this is stated. But it shows they have no regard for the cross and salvation offered by God.

Repent towards God (Yahweh) and believe on Jesus Christ, the living Son of God, and you shall be saved.

**

Isaiah 53

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

**

 

[Sufi]

sorry but why are you quoting the corrupt Bible? am asking about Islamic point of view.

You believe that the Bible is corrupt?

 

[Sufi]

Oh i read the link you provided. You wrote:

Reply:

Jesus had only said that the likeness between him and Jonah would be in the period of time they were each to undergo an internment : Jonah in a fish, Jesus in the heart of the earth. You omitted this reference and claimed that Jesus must have been like Jonah in other ways as well, extending the likeness to include the living state of Jonah inside the fish. When Jesus’ statement is read as a whole, however, it is quite clear that the likeness is confined to the time factor : as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the stomach of the fish, so Jesus would be a similar period in the heart of the earth. One cannot stretch this further, as you did , to say that as Jonah was ALIVE in the fish, so Jesus would be alive in the tomb. Jesus did not say this and such an interpretation does not arise from his saying but is read into it. Furthermore, in speaking of his coming crucifixion, Jesus on another occasion used a similar saying which proves the point quite adequately and which backfires against you:
**
As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up". ** John 3:14

Here the likeness is clearly in being “lifted up”. As Moses LIFTED UP the serpent, so would the Son of man be LIFTED UP, the one for the healing of the Jews, the other for the healing of the nations. In this case the brass serpent Moses made was dead and if your logic is applied to this verse we must presume that it means that Jesus must have been dead before he was lifted up, dead on the cross, and dead when taken down from it.

I hope you got other things to discuss since you are the only Muslim who volunteered to participate.

I deleted what refference?
I don’t beleive that Jesus was crucified and your Bible as it is today says that to be put on the curse is to be accursed. Is Jesus the son of Mary accursed?

As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up". John 3:14

The son of man(David) was lifted up to heaven.

 

[inJESUS]

You believe that the Bible is corrupt?

no you do, aren’t you Muslim?

 

[Sufi]

My understanding of Muslim teaching is God replaced Jesus with Judas, and it was Judas who was crucified. Jesus was taken to heaven and Judas died on the cross. I do not know where in the Koran this is stated. But it shows they have no regard for the cross and salvation offered by God.

Repent towards God (Yahweh) and believe on Jesus Christ, the living Son of God, and you shall be saved.

**

Isaiah 53

3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

**

Hello sister, no where in the Qur’an it says anything about Judas. Some Muslims beleive that it was according to their understanding of historical events, but this is not directly pointed out in the Qur’an.

David is also the son of God according to psalm 2:7. Should I rely on him also and be saved?

 

[inJESUS]

I deleted what refference?

I don’t beleive that Jesus was crucified and your Bible as it is today says that to be put on the curse is to be accursed. Is Jesus the son of Mary accursed?

 

[Sufi]

no you do, aren’t you Muslim?

I am a Muslim, but when did you hear me say that the Bible is corrupted?

 

[inJESUS]

Hello sister, no where in the Qur’an it says anything about Judas. Some Muslims beleive that it was according to their understanding of historical events, but this is not directly pointed out in the Qur’an.

this is the point of the thread…to discuss this mainstream belief.

David is also the son of God according to psalm 2:7. Should I rely on him also and be saved?

 

[Sufi]

the Bible says he was crucified which is corrupt according to you right?

 

[Sufi]

this is the point of the thread…to discuss this mainstream belief.

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;1539619:

That’s not corruption. I beleive that people who translated and put Bible into pen and ink were good people, I just believe that they might of misunderstood some things which led to wrong translation, and because no measures were made to preserve the Bible, the real message of Islam was eventually lost/miusunderstood.

what kind of translation is it where people misunderstand to the point of making Jesus crucified? do not forget that the belief in crucifixion pre-dates the Bible canonization and translation,It is written in first century Biblical and non biblical scriptures.

Again please stick to the original post and open new threads for other questions.