Muslims: let's reason

[Sufi]

Sufi;1539630:

what kind of translation is it where people misunderstand to the point of making Jesus crucified? do not forget that the belief in crucifixion pre-dates the Bible canonization and translation,It is written in first century Biblical and non biblical scriptures.

Again please stick to the original post and open new threads for other questions.

The first Christians were not worshippers of Jesus. Yet the later are.This brings me to the conclusion that some where down the line, the message was misunderstood.

I was just informed that the oldest new testament accounts can be dated back to the 2nd. century. You are stating now the 1at century. Can you provide proof of your statement?

 

[inJESUS]

the Quran has got only one verse regarding crucifixion; the ahadith are often contradictory that’s why Muslims do not agree on one interpretation but mainstream say someone else was crucified based on the Quranic verse.

You believe he was crucified. Why?

How is David different from being the son of Allah than Jesus? The Bible according to how it is today says that they are both begotten sons of God. I haven’t studied where it emphasiszed difference.

kindly open a thread for this question.

 

[Sufi]

We all know that Muslims do not believe in Jesus’ crucifixion. Rather, they believe someone else was crucified.

question : why ?

1. Someone was crucified
2. It wasn’t Jesus
3. Since it wasn’t Jesus it has to be someone else.

This is the Islamic belief.

 

[inJESUS]

new thread for this one as well please. Of course first Christians worshipped Jesus.

I was just informed that the oldest new testament accounts can be dated back to the 2nd. century. You are stating now the 1at century. Can you provide proof of your statement?

the Church Fathers who included disciples of disciples quoted the whole NT in their scriptures and teachings. You read about Jesus’ crucifixion in the writings of first century Church Fathers. But this is irrelevant topic and can be discussed in a new thread.

Back to original post please.

 

[inJESUS]

1. Someone was crucified
2. It wasn’t Jesus
3. Since it wasn’t Jesus it has to be someone else.

This is the Islamic belief.

exactly thank you…it is this logic am asking about…why did someone else die?

but didnt you say first that Jesus was crucified??? or did you change your mind?

 

[inJESUS]

some Jews wanted to kill jesus right? they took him to crucify him… Allah intervened and someone else died. Why did Allah have to make someone else die ?

 

[rbarcia]

Hello sister,

I am Male.

no where in the Qur’an it says anything about Judas. Some Muslims beleive that it was according to their understanding of historical events, but this is not directly pointed out in the Qur’an.

Ok, but Muslims believe this based on the fact that there was an appeared crucifiction…

Surah 4, Verses 157 & 158:

“and their saying : we killed Christ Jesus, son of Mary, The messenger of Allah - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so; and those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; For surely they killed him not; but Allah took him up unto Himself; and Allah is ever mighty, wise.”

David is also the son of God according to psalm 2:7. Should I rely on him also and be saved?

We can all become sons of God if we repent of our sins and trust in Jesus. We trust in His death and resurrection, that His blood (because He lived a sinless life, withou blemish) paid for our debt for breaking God’s law. God is just and Holy, He demands payment we cannot provide. Christ died on the cross to pay your and my debt. If you repent towards God and recieve Jesus as your Savior, you pass from Death (infinite burning in hell) to Life (Eternity with God). Plus He will sent you His Holy Spirit to live you enabling you to live according to God’s will.

He loves you that much, that God has made a way for you to be forgiven.

Have you kept the laws God gave through the prophet Moses? Have you ever lied? Stolen? Used God’s name in vain? Looked with Lust (God considers this adulerty Mat 5).

How does a Muslim abtain forgiveness of sins? or are muslims perfect? Or is professing allah all you have to do for eternity?

 

[thistle]

I’m smiling at the thread title. Muslims: let’s reason.
Isn’t that actually a contradiction in terms??

 

[inJESUS]

I’m smiling at the thread title. Muslims: let’s reason.
Isn’t that actually a contradiction in terms??

well so far it seems a contradiction.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

and their saying : we killed Christ Jesus, son of Mary, The messenger of Allah - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so; and those who disagree concerning it are full of doubts; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; For surely they killed him not; but Allah took him up unto Himself; and Allah is ever mighty, wise.”

go figure…Allah wanted to refute the crucifixion…what do u think of his refutation?

Let us reason with the points in black…

-They [Jews?] did NOT crucify Jesus…so Jesus was never on a cross according to them nor was he killed. Was he even among them physically during their attempted murder or was even their attempted murder of Him a myth?

-It was made to appear so…what does this mean? Either they saw a phantom or some one else on the cross? What exactly is this “appear so”, what did they see? This is an important question which cant be brushed off.

-Allah took him up to Himself…was Jesus assumed into Heaven? The way this is put Im not sure of the timing, but it appears Jesus was taken to Heaven during the attempt to murder Him.

Concerning the “full of doubts”, if anything this passage creates only doubts about the situation.

 

[Dale_M]

Dale:

Oh, okay… that would be 4:157-8. My reading of it, which granted is uneducated about Islam, is not that they are denying the actual crucifixion but whether Jesus died while crucified.

so when you read it, you understood that Jesus was crucified indeed?

Yes, that was my reading of it, but of course there are differences in the three translations in my link. And, as I said before, I have no education regarding Islam.

And I see from the wikipedia article that my interpretation is not in the mainstream of Islam.

inJESUS:

Dale:

I get the sense that what the Quran is saying that his would-be killers did not have final victory over Jesus, but that Allah intervened to rescue him.
usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html

how?

Oh, I think that is one of those theological mysteries which we are just supposed to accept. But I suppose it could be reasoned that Jesus passed out/went comatose and that God revived him later.

 

[Giovanni]

inJESUS;1539637:

The first Christians were not worshippers of Jesus. Yet the later are.This brings me to the conclusion that some where down the line, the message was misunderstood.

I was just informed that the oldest new testament accounts can be dated back to the 2nd. century. You are stating now the 1at century. Can you provide proof of your statement?

I will try to understand where you are coming from, but I don’t get all the misunderstanding and belief in bad translation of the gospel.
Bu in response to your comment, Peter acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God, man possessed by demons acknowledged Him as the Most High, and let’s not forget Thomas who after touching His wounds said “My Lord and my God”. So who do the first Christians think He was, and if He wasn’t who He said He was, and who many said He was, why did many early Christians accept martyrdom in His name, who were they worshipping.