Muslims: Marvelous Protectors of Christianity! (?)

[Starrsmother]

Hi Drac,

Many on here will tell you how much i am not a fan of islam, and im sorry for that, but my best friends family was killed by muslims in the lebanon war in the 80’s, they saw family members killed in front of them, and other things in recent history.
But i must admit, there have been many muslims on here, but for some reason, you and famidy are actual peaceful muslims. I commend you on that.
You follow what i call ‘moderate islam’ and i wish all muslims would be the same.
God bless you

I wish that “peaceful moderate muslims”, if there really are any, would grow a pair and stand up and publicly condemn the vicious, murdering acts that most of us all have come to associate with the word “muslim” in general. I don’t know how many interviews I’ve watched on TV where a muslim swears that he is moderate and blamed falsely for the deeds of others–which works right up until he is asked if he condemns these acts of jihad that radical muslims do regularly and that is when he starts side stepping and flatly refuses to do so! Does anyone else see a bit of hypocrisy here?

 

[surritter]

Yes if one actually reads the Koran they will ALSO find Gods Love in Abundance.

Have you read some of the Bible stories, they are also quite violent!..

But let’s analyze this – Yes, some stories in the Bible are quite violent, but simply telling a story doesn’t necessarily mean that the followers of the Bible are urged to do the same violent things, right?

And, those violent things in the Bible which seem to be commanded by God Himself are simply expressing man’s knowledge about God at that time (Old Testament).
Here’s the key difference between violence in the Bible and that in the Koran: As Christians we believe that the God of the Old Testament was further revealed in the New Testament. Thus, the new divine revelation clarified our understanding of God and His commandments. God didn’t change from being violent to being loving; but His fullness was revealed in Jesus to be both just and merciful. Jesus specifically says that love trumps hatred of enemies.

Does the Koran say this?

When the Koran urges violence upon infidels, we must see that as the current revelation, because they don’t have a “new testament” to clarify the violent passages. (I think a Muslim would be insulted if we say that their holy book is not complete and they need a messiah to come along and clarify the violent passages.)

 

[tonyfish58]

But let’s analyze this – Yes, some stories in the Bible are quite violent, but simply telling a story doesn’t necessarily mean that the followers of the Bible are urged to do the same violent things, right?

And, those violent things in the Bible which seem to be commanded by God Himself are simply expressing man’s knowledge about God at that time (Old Testament).
Here’s the key difference between violence in the Bible and that in the Koran: As Christians we believe that the God of the Old Testament was further revealed in the New Testament. Thus, the new divine revelation clarified our understanding of God and His commandments. God didn’t change from being violent to being loving; but His fullness was revealed in Jesus to be both just and merciful. Jesus specifically says that love trumps hatred of enemies.

Does the Koran say this?

When the Koran urges violence upon infidels, we must see that as the current revelation, because they don’t have a “new testament” to clarify the violent passages. (I think a Muslim would be insulted if we say that their holy book is not complete and they need a messiah to come along and clarify the violent passages.)

surritter - Thank you for the reponse dear friend in God - Just Like the Bible you must balance the Passages in Light of the Other Guidance that is written and to where and why the Passage was revealed in the first place.

If you isolate a single passage to suit your cause, this does not mean you have attained an understanding of that passage.

Many radical non Biblical thoughts have arisen because of single passage interpretation, this is the same as with the Koran.

War has now been removed for all time from the Holy Books.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Seraphim73]

Forexample Ottoman Empire:Ottoman Muslims conquered many place in Europe but they did not force Christians to be Muslim and they did not demolish churchs. Sultan Fatih Mehmet published a “ferman” to protect churchs. When Saladin captured Kudüs(Jerusalem) he did not slaghtured any Christian like Christians did. Ottamans protected and saved Jews when they were slaghtured in Europe. Allah says in Quran: İf some kill other without any reason it is as if he had killed all people. Ofcourse there should be some individual cases but Allah will punish them.

Really?



Fall of Constantinople

And a little more recent.

Armenian Genocide

 

[surritter]

surritter - Thank you for the reponse dear friend in God - Just Like the Bible you must balance the Passages in Light of the Other Guidance that is written and to where and why the Passage was revealed in the first place.

If you isolate a single passage to suit your cause, this does not mean you have attained an understanding of that passage.

Many radical non Biblical thoughts have arisen because of single passage interpretation, this is the same as with the Koran.

War has now been removed for all time from the Holy Books.

God Bless and Regards Tony

If it’s true that advocating of war against infidels has been removed from the Koran for all time, then I apologize and retract my comments.
However, I wonder if Muslims would agree with you that the Koran has been altered since its origin!

 

[DeFuret]

Really?

http://buildingfailures.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/hagia-sophia.jpg

Fall of Constantinople

And a little more recent.

Armenian Genocide

I am no fan of Islam, but to be fair, the Armenian Genocide had more to do with the secular Turkish nationalism of the Young Turks.

 

[tonyfish58]

I am no fan of Islam, but to be fair, the Armenian Genocide had more to do with the secular Turkish nationalism of the Young Turks.

Interestingly it was the rise of the Young Turks that enabled the Release of Abd’u’lbaha from the Prison City of Akka which in turn enabled the Faith to be spread rapidly into the West.

There are prophesies in the Baha’i Writings re the fall of the Ottaman Empire.

All of course another story for another time.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[eddie_too]

who speaks for islam? is there any teacher of islam that all muslims regard as the final word on what constitutes a faithful muslim and that reconciles differing intepretations of the Koran and other sacred Islamic texts?

if there is no one who does this, can we really praise or criticize “islam” since islam remains undefined.

 

[youkokun]

Recently I’ve been reading the Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews, and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain, by Maria Rosa Menocal. If someone already mentioned this book, I apologize for repeating. Evidently it’s a widely published book since I’ve seen a few copies in Powell’s and Goodwill (same amount as Father Joe), and now that I’m 55 pages in I realize it’s because although the author pays lipservice to all three with bias pro-Muslim, she’s very secular with her language (“progressive”, “tolerant”).

Anyway, from what I’ve read it is true that during the late eighth century the lone survivor of the Umayyad caliphate, Abd al-Rahman, travelled to Cordoba and established a following. Eventually the Muslims took over Spain from the Visigoths, who weren’t doing such a great job of running it anyway because of the various tribal conflicts. While they were in power, the Umayyads molded the chaos into THE center for culture, trade and learning in Europe for a few good centuries. The Christians and the Jews were not only tolerated, they were encouraged to participate in this often contradictory exchange of ideas. Some Jews even served in the government, which never happened (so far as I’ve read! I’d be happy to be corrected on this point!) while Christians ran Spain. The entire region was called al-Andalus. Later, other Muslim factions destroyed this city’s soft policies, but this era of peace happened first and I think it’s unfair to dismiss it.

I think it’s always been the intent of Islam to gently coerce those it believes to be infidels into the folds of what it believes to be the one true faith, and failing that, use force, not unlike medieval Catholics under Pope Innocent III.

 

[peace_at_last]

who speaks for islam? is there any teacher of islam that all muslims regard as the final word on what constitutes a faithful muslim and that reconciles differing intepretations of the Koran and other sacred Islamic texts?

if there is no one who does this, can we really praise or criticize “islam” since islam remains undefined.

It depends which sect you ask those questions from. If I were to ask those questions from a Christian I would get a different response from followers of different churches too. What you are doing here is attributing the actions of violent retarded Islamic sects to Islam as a whole. I could apply that to Christianity too, but it isn’t fair because different Churches hold different beliefs.

The Shia response:

The Quran was revealed with a teacher to teach it, Prophet Muhammad. After him, it was unto the Twelve infallible Shia Imam’s to teach and interpret the Quran as God had intended. Non-Shia sects do not believe in this form of interpretation and go about interpreting the Quran as they wish. Some do it moderately and conservatively others interpret it violently.

According to the Shia belief the Quran tells us itself that it’s words are to be explained by God through the Prophet and his successors:

In 75:18-19 the Quran says God will clarify it for Muhammad:
"So when We have recited it [through Gabriel], then follow its recitation. Then upon Us is its clarification [to you]."

In 16:44 its speaks of a message which is used to make clear what was sent for the people:
**“And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.”
**
Again in 75:18 it speaks about the verses being clear for a group who have been given knowledge about them:
**“But it is clear revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge”
**

The interpretation of the Quran as provided in Shia narrations and the 12 Imams differs greatly with that provided by non-Shia groups. Thus, you don’t see Shia militants running around killing all non-Shias in sight like what the ISIS is doing. To be fair most Sunnis don’t have this violent behavior either, except for followers of the retarded Wahhabi/Takfiri doctrine which is unfortunately gaining momentum thanks to the Petrodollars of the Arab monarchs of the Persian Gulf (aka US allies in the middle east).

 

[otterman]

Yes if one actually reads the Koran they will ALSO find Gods Love in Abundance.

Have you read some of the Bible stories, they are also quite violent!

The actions of a few do not stain the True Faith.

We must Love all and only share goodwill

God Bless and Regards Tony

Any “love” found in the Quran is found with the Islamic god Allah, not the Bible God YHWH.
The Bible God’s love extends to both believers and unbelievers, unlike the Islamic god Allah whose “love” is for believers only. Quran 3.32

Any violent stories held within the O.T.are not to be read as eternally binding upon humanity, unlike the Quran which is, meaning the violence found within both the Quran and Sunnah are legally binding upon Muslims for all time.

Whilst I would agree that we must "love all and only share goodwill "Muslims can only do this towards their co religionists, Quran 5:55-56 as Non Muslims (unbelievers) are the “worst of creatures” 98.6

Muslims cannot have “love” or even friendship with Non Muslims, especially Jews and Christians as Allah forbids it. 5.51

It can be deduced from these contradictions, that the god of Islam cannot be the God of the Bible.

 

[dolphinlove]

Interestingly it was the rise of the Young Turks that enabled the Release of Abd’u’lbaha from the Prison City of Akka which in turn enabled the Faith to be spread rapidly into the West.

There are prophesies in the Baha’i Writings re the fall of the Ottaman Empire.

All of course another story for another time.

God Bless and Regards Tony

You have been breaking the rules of these forums for too long now, no trying to profitlizing? sorry 2am in the morning. Its time you started answering catholic questions instead of spreading your religion here. You seem to avoid direct questions, answer them and stop repeating the same thing about looking at your religion

 

[otterman]

QUOTE=tonyfish58;12259676]surritter - Thank you for the reponse dear friend in God - Just Like the Bible you must balance the Passages in Light of the Other Guidance that is written and to where and why the Passage was revealed in the first place.

If you isolate a single passage to suit your cause, this does not mean you have attained an understanding of that passage.

Many radical non Biblical thoughts have arisen because of single passage interpretation, this is the same as with the Koran.

War has now been removed for all time from the Holy Books.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Neither the Jews nor Christians can find authority from the Bible to use violence towards those who do not believe as they do, unlike Muslims who can.

 

[surritter]

Neither the Jews nor Christians can find authority from the Bible to use violence towards those who do not believe as they do, unlike Muslims who can.

Right. And I still have no clue what Tonyfish meant by saying “War has now been removed for all time from the Holy Books.”

 

[msammiem]

If you actually read the Q’uran, I think that in itself, this will prove to you that Islam is not a religion for the faint of heart. It doesn’t promote peace, love of neighbor or tolerance. I’ve heard people say that there seems to be a difference in the God of the OT and of the NT. Frankly, Islam is the OT on steroids.

Moreover, it doesn’t really matter WHAT muslims say they believe when their actions speak the exact opposite. Also, if you notice, even American Imams who are happy to go on TV and talk about how their’s is a gentle religion of love and how they feel persecuted by many Americans who judge them by the atrocities of the middle east, will back away from condemning the beheadings and torture of radical muslims in other countries. To my mind, this is hypocricy in its highest form.

This is absolutely right. Even the “peaceful” muslims I know absolutely will not condemn the violent activities of their brothers in the middle east. I believe they would behead all Christians and others who refuse to convert to to their religion.

 

[tonyfish58]

Right. And I still have no clue what Tonyfish meant by saying “War has now been removed for all time from the Holy Books.”

Surritter - I will answer your question as it is relevant to the Thread. I will keep it short thus there will be a lot left that needs to be said to balance this point of view.

The Faith of Muhummad due to circumstances of the time was given by God the option of defense of ones Faith. A person must look for themselves why this was so.

It is obvious today that this aspect of the Faith of Muhummad was and also now has been overtaken by Radical Thinkers who use it as an excuse to Murder, rape and pillage in the name of Religion.

Baha’u’llah has revealed a Book of Laws in which God now forbids Holy War. Holy War has been removed for all time. Thus no religion can now go to war under the pretext that it is ordained by God. This has been the case since the mid to late 1800’s (around 1873).

If all Muslims had remained Faithful to the Intent of the Word of God as recorded in the Koran and other Traditions, then the Protection of Christianity would have been assured.

Just remember that there are also Christians that would have to answer to God for undertaking Holy War that was not ordained by God according to scripture.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[peace_at_last]

This is absolutely right. Even the “peaceful” muslims I know absolutely will not condemn the violent activities of their brothers in the middle east. I believe they would behead all Christians and others who refuse to convert to to their religion.

Wrong. Islam has many sects like Christianity. The violent sects are born out of Sunni Islam. Your friends were probably Sunni and refrained from condemning their brethren. I and a lot of other Muslims (including Sunnis) have condemned the violent actions of the terrorists in the middle east on this forum. Why you turn a blind eye to this, I do not understand.

Shia Islam is actively engaged in fighting against the ISIS, Taliban, and Takfiris and always condemns their actions. This is a established fact, although western media chooses to show a different picture.

 

[tonyfish58]

You have been breaking the rules of these forums for too long now, no trying to profitlizing? sorry 2am in the morning. Its time you started answering catholic questions instead of spreading your religion here. You seem to avoid direct questions, answer them and stop repeating the same thing about looking at your religion

Dear dolphinlove - You must have been tired when you posted this I hope your sleep lightened your heart to open dialogue between Faiths to which this thread was posted for answers.

The word you were after was Proselytising and this is forbidden in the Baha’i Faith. Thus I offer to you the following;

This is the Non Catholic Religion Section to which we are invited to participate. We acknowledge and thank the Forum Host for allowing this participation.

The Baha’i Writings has much guidance on these subjects. I post short replies applicable to the subject or that is a direct at a point of interest mentioned in the subject.

A person is free to look at the answer and study it further if they wish to, as dear friend in God, there are a lot more answers available if one wishes to look. A person is free not to look at the answer, it is not forced upon one to do so.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[msammiem]

Wrong. Islam has many sects like Christianity. The violent sects are born out of Sunni Islam. Your friends were probably Sunni and refrained from condemning their brethren. I and a lot of other Muslims (including Sunnis) have condemned the violent actions of the terrorists in the middle east on this forum. Why you turn a blind eye to this, I do not understand.

Shia Islam is actively engaged in fighting against the ISIS, Taliban, and Takfiris and always condemns their actions. This is a established fact, although western media chooses to show a different picture.

I’m not turning a blind eye to this. I have honestly have seen absolutely no proof of muslims condemning other muslims for their violent actions. I would like to see evidence of what you speak. Show me the protests, reports and official statements from muslims against these terrible people.

 

[tonyfish58]

This document is a worthy reply to this thread

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.
No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.
No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.
No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.
Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”
English translation from ‘Muslim History: 570 – 1950 C.E.’ by Dr. A. Zahoor and Dr. Z. Haq, ZMD Corporation. P.O. Box 8231 – Gaithersburg, MD 20898-8231 – Copyright Akram Zahoor 2000. P. 167 (The original letter is now in the Topkapi Museum in Instanbul)

God Bless and Regards Tony