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surritter
Guest
You claimed that war has been removed from the “Holy Books,” and now I se that your perception of “Holy Books” is the writings that YOU perceive to be holy. That’s quite different from the usual use of that phrase.
But thanks for clarifying.
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otterman
Guest
Those Christians who have used the Bible to justify violence in Gods name, have no authority from their scriptures to do so, unlike Muslims who can find such justification from their teachings.
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
General Notice
Stay with NCR rules in regard to this topic.
Stay with NCR rules in regard to this topic.
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otterman
Guest
You are trying desperately to “sugar coat” reality.
The prophet of Islam was a military leader who used military strength to bring people into submission to Allah’s rules and regulations. The ahadiths give clear evidence of this, and the Quran brings justification.
“A person belonging to the category of “protected people” (ahl ad-Dhimmah) in the Islamic state. Only those from the “people of the Book” (Jews and Christians) can become Dhimmis and then have certain rights, like privately worshipping according to their religion, as long as they pay the “protection money” (jizya) but are not considered citizens of the country. Their status has to be one of humiliation (Surah 9:29).”
But this begs the question, who or what are they protected from, and why do they need any "protection"in the first place.
The “protected people” have to pay extortion money, named as the Jizya,to “protect”(prevent) them from having weapons, only Muslims have that responsibility.
answering-islam.org/Index/index.html
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tonyfish58
Guest
Not sugar coated, just the way it was supposed to be, here is more - ptwf.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=209:muslims-are-commanded-by-muhammad-to-protect-christians-and-their-churches-until-the-end-of-days&catid=86&Itemid=526
We can not change what has been but we can change what will be, may God grant us all the will to change for the Love of God.
God Bless and Regards Tony
God Bless and Regards Tony
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tonyfish58
Guest
There is a lot of good to be found with this subject, here is another good story
Egyptian Muslims form ‘human shields’ to protect Christians
10 January 2011 at 02:33
It is reported that Egyptian Muslims offered themselves as ‘human shields’ to protect Coptic Christians during their celebrations of Christmas on January 7th a week after a suicide bomber killed 21 Christians and injured over 80 in Alexandria.
‘Egypt’s Ahramonline quotes Mohamed El-Sawy, a Muslim arts tycoon credited with first floating the “human shield” idea, as saying, “We either live together, or we die together.”
“This is not about us and them,” Dalia Mustafa, a student who attended mass at Virgin Mary Church on Maraashly, told Ahramonline. ”We are one. This was an attack on Egypt as a whole, and I am standing with the Copts because the only way things will change in this country is if we come together.”
The Daily News Egypt reported that the front pew at a church in the Cairo district of Omraneya was filled with prominent Muslims from the neighbourhood. In his sermon, Father Hanna thanked the Muslims for attending, ”This is the way our Egypt climbs new heights and become prosperous.”
At the Cleopatra Church in Heliopolis Khaled, a Muslim attendee, said, “It’s an honor to be among you today and [to] celebrate [Coptic] Christmas with you.”
On Thursday, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak’s two sons Alaa and Gamal attended a Christmas Eve mass at Saint Mark’s Cathedral in Cairo, where the head of the Coptic Church, Pope Shenuda III, conducted the service.
On Friday, about 100 opposition group members in Cairo gathered in a demonstration of solidarity with the Copts. ”One people, one blood,” they chanted.
Protect the Pope comment: It is very moving to report the bravery of these Egyptian Muslims who risked their own lives to protect and support to the Coptic Christians singled out by Al Qaeda for persecution and death. In the past Muslim terrorists have murdered fellow Muslims who have defied their persecution of Christians. Those Muslims who offered themselves as ‘human shields’ or joined the Copts at Mass showed great courage in the face of real danger, as did the Christians who attended Mass under the threat of further terrorist attacks.
This courageous act of solidarity between Muslims and Christians in Egypt is an example to us all and is a great sign of hope for 2011. Pope Benedict has called on people of all religions to reject violence as totally incompatible with belief in God. The Holy Father is convening a meeting in Assisi later in the year between the world’s major religions to express their rejection and defiance of violence committed in the name of religion. Let us pray in thanksgiving for the Muslims and Christians of Egypt and for the success of the Assisi meeting.
nationalpost.com/news/world/Muslims+protect+churches/4078614/story.html#ixzz1AYkJ5kbw
facebook.com/notes/benedict-xvi-benedetto-xvi/egyptian-muslims-form-human-shields-to-protect-christians/10150373945000521
May we all work towards peace and unity and for the Love of God - Regards Tony
Egyptian Muslims form ‘human shields’ to protect Christians
10 January 2011 at 02:33
It is reported that Egyptian Muslims offered themselves as ‘human shields’ to protect Coptic Christians during their celebrations of Christmas on January 7th a week after a suicide bomber killed 21 Christians and injured over 80 in Alexandria.
‘Egypt’s Ahramonline quotes Mohamed El-Sawy, a Muslim arts tycoon credited with first floating the “human shield” idea, as saying, “We either live together, or we die together.”
“This is not about us and them,” Dalia Mustafa, a student who attended mass at Virgin Mary Church on Maraashly, told Ahramonline. ”We are one. This was an attack on Egypt as a whole, and I am standing with the Copts because the only way things will change in this country is if we come together.”
The Daily News Egypt reported that the front pew at a church in the Cairo district of Omraneya was filled with prominent Muslims from the neighbourhood. In his sermon, Father Hanna thanked the Muslims for attending, ”This is the way our Egypt climbs new heights and become prosperous.”
At the Cleopatra Church in Heliopolis Khaled, a Muslim attendee, said, “It’s an honor to be among you today and [to] celebrate [Coptic] Christmas with you.”
On Thursday, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak’s two sons Alaa and Gamal attended a Christmas Eve mass at Saint Mark’s Cathedral in Cairo, where the head of the Coptic Church, Pope Shenuda III, conducted the service.
On Friday, about 100 opposition group members in Cairo gathered in a demonstration of solidarity with the Copts. ”One people, one blood,” they chanted.
Protect the Pope comment: It is very moving to report the bravery of these Egyptian Muslims who risked their own lives to protect and support to the Coptic Christians singled out by Al Qaeda for persecution and death. In the past Muslim terrorists have murdered fellow Muslims who have defied their persecution of Christians. Those Muslims who offered themselves as ‘human shields’ or joined the Copts at Mass showed great courage in the face of real danger, as did the Christians who attended Mass under the threat of further terrorist attacks.
This courageous act of solidarity between Muslims and Christians in Egypt is an example to us all and is a great sign of hope for 2011. Pope Benedict has called on people of all religions to reject violence as totally incompatible with belief in God. The Holy Father is convening a meeting in Assisi later in the year between the world’s major religions to express their rejection and defiance of violence committed in the name of religion. Let us pray in thanksgiving for the Muslims and Christians of Egypt and for the success of the Assisi meeting.
nationalpost.com/news/world/Muslims+protect+churches/4078614/story.html#ixzz1AYkJ5kbw
facebook.com/notes/benedict-xvi-benedetto-xvi/egyptian-muslims-form-human-shields-to-protect-christians/10150373945000521
May we all work towards peace and unity and for the Love of God - Regards Tony
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John_Lazarus
Guest
I can think of at least two, just in the past couple days.
One was an imam I believe in the US, and he was warning against radicalized homegrown terrorists going over to fight for ISIS.
The second was the leader of the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, who is doing a 48-hr fast/hunger strike to show his opposition to ISIS.
But as has been mentioned elsewhere, Muslim leaders condemning extremism does not necessarily make good TV.
Again, the news is replete with stories of ISIS killing other Muslims, attacking the Yazidis, etc. And a whole whack of coverage over the murder of a journalist. Not a whole lot of mention over the slaughter of Christians, it seems.
Doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
I remember when I lived in Toronto, I knew average everyday Muslims who condemned violence in the name of Islam, and held contempt for its perpetrators.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Just my two-fifths of a nickel.
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John_Lazarus
Guest
And how does this differ from Christians, Jews, etc?
Christians believe that the constraints of the Old Law – keeping kosher, circumcision, etc – were lifted by the New Covenant. The Muslims believe the OT and NT were corrupted and supplanted by the Qu’ran. The Baha’i believe the writings of Baha’ullah supersede all of the above. And the Jews think we’re all nertz.
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otterman
Guest
Sorry Tony, you cannot change the contents in the Quran they are immutable, and the Quran commands extortion money is to be paid “with willing submission” by Non Muslims living under Islamic rule, who have to" feel themselves subdued"
This means that the Islamic rulers must have in place regulations which ensure the Dhimmis feel themselves subdued, which would have to be severe enough to be fit for purpose,which they are.
As Ibn Kathir recorded:
Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace
islamictreasure.com/qurantafseer/ibnkathir/ibnkathir_web/9.20986.html
qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2566&Itemid=64
This begs the question. What happens if the Non Muslims refuse to pay this extortion money?
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jlhargus
Guest
Yes the Jews of Yathrib were overwhelmed with joy when Muhammad had to flee from Mecca and was invited to settle in Yathrib (Madina) because they thought Muhammad was a prophet or the Messiah. When they realized he was not, and no longer supported him, some Jews left Yathrib. Those who didn’t were killed. After this Muhammad changed prayer from facing Jerusalem to facing Mecca. I agree you’re not going to know about this if you don’t dig deeper. Most books I have read say this period was a marked change of Muhammads peaceful teachings of his Meccan period.
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surritter
Guest
Did you read the rest of my post??? I wrote that “That’s quite different from the usual use of that phrase.” Surely you know that the writings of Baha’ullah wouldn’t come to mind when the average visitor to these forums hears that phrase.And how does this differ from Christians, Jews, etc?
Christians believe that the constraints of the Old Law – keeping kosher, circumcision, etc – were lifted by the New Covenant. The Muslims believe the OT and NT were corrupted and supplanted by the Qu’ran. The Baha’i believe the writings of Baha’ullah supersede all of the above. And the Jews think we’re all nertz.
But to the original point about Islam, if Muslims believe that the Qu’ran supplanted all other books, then they obviously have to acknowledge the violence within that book. Again, that’s contrary to the perceived statement that all violence has been eliminated from the holy books.
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peace_at_last
Guest
The subject of Jizya has already been addressed here:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12198112&postcount=27
People who don’t pay taxes are subdued and forced into paying tax everywhere in the world. In the US failure to pay taxes will result in:
Place a levy on your bank account
Place a lien on your home
Seize your car, boat, or any other personal or real property of value
Imprisonment.
and if you are a foreigner you’ll probably be deported. If you resist physical force will be used.
See any resemblance with the Islamic law?
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EvangelCatholic
Guest
What troubles me greatly is that I have not heard condemnations of this unspeakable barbarity from the Muslim community. Religious leaders among the Muslim people should strongly speak out against the atrocities of fanatics who commit murder in the name of Allah.
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surritter
Guest
Sorry, but that’s a terrible analogy. Taxes in the US are not based on failure to belong to the proper religion!
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peace_at_last
Guest
There are differences in rules everywhere for those who are citizens and those who are not citizens. In an Islamic state it is the religion of the person that draws the border, in the US nationality. You have a problem with having different laws on the basis of religion but it is fair if people are treated differently on the Basis of nationality and not being US citizens? And if you didn’t already know, the Muslims have to pay Zakat and Khums taxes. Non-Muslims do not pay those taxes because they are not Muslim. They pay the other tax called Jizya. If you had read the link I provided you would have seen the differences are not many.
No one batted an eye when the Shias were being killed in Syria protecting Christian villages from the ISIS and al-nusra front, no one even cared for the Christians, and now we have people here complaining that why don’t the Muslims protest. The Muslims that are protesting and getting killed on the Ground are from countries that the US hates, thus zero media coverage. The Sunni Muslim countries that are supporting the terrorists are Sunni Arab US allies and no one protest to them. Have you ever asked yourselves why the US supports these monarchs? Why didn’t the US do nothing when 1700 Christians and Shias that were massacred in Mosul with many videos showing them being beheaded? Why is it that a single beheaded American reporter is given so much attention? I’ll tell you: because the US only cares about it’s own citizens and it’s own interests.
The terrorists in Iraq and Syria had full US support and received money and logistics when they were killing Shias and Alawis in Syria and Iraq. US didn’t give a rat’s bottom side because they were killing Syrians (an enemy of Israel) and now that a single American reporter, A SINGLE AMERICAN REPORTER, is killed look at the outrage and condemnation: that is called discrimination, that is called seeing the world as second hand citizens, that is called prejudice.
No one batted an eye when the Shias were being killed in Syria protecting Christian villages from the ISIS and al-nusra front, no one even cared for the Christians, and now we have people here complaining that why don’t the Muslims protest. The Muslims that are protesting and getting killed on the Ground are from countries that the US hates, thus zero media coverage. The Sunni Muslim countries that are supporting the terrorists are Sunni Arab US allies and no one protest to them. Have you ever asked yourselves why the US supports these monarchs? Why didn’t the US do nothing when 1700 Christians and Shias that were massacred in Mosul with many videos showing them being beheaded? Why is it that a single beheaded American reporter is given so much attention? I’ll tell you: because the US only cares about it’s own citizens and it’s own interests.
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peace_at_last
Guest
It is not a matter based on purely religious grounds. According to the Quran, Muslims have to pay two Islamic taxes: Khums, Zakat. Non-Muslims don’t pay ISLAMIC TAXES, but still have to pay some tax? No? That is called Jaziya. Or maybe you would have been satisfied if non-Muslims didn’t pay any tax at all?
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peace_at_last
Guest
the ghetto is your misconception. 
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LtTony
Guest
Please substantiate that claim.
I have no doubt this happened, but provide details from a legitimate source.
Again, please provide details from a credible news source.
Finally, I find your characterization of U.S. indifference a little off the mark. I agree with you to some extent; the feeling in the U.S. is only natural (i.e. Iraq (the entire region really) and its religious troubles is not something we are anxious to re-visit.) You codemn this country for not caring about muslims, then in the same breath admit the indifference carries equally to Christians.
We are walking a tightrope, where there is no acceptable solution. Example, if we fight the terrorists in one location we are the “good guys,” in another location we would be seen as assisting a ruthless dictator.
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LtTony
Guest
And if you don’t think publically chopping the head off a person isn’t going to get the emotions going, you’re a poor judge of human nature. A lot of the hype can be attibuted the the news media itself – the victim wass one of their own, after all. (Maybe quit watching TV and talk to real people.) I don’t sense the ruthless, uncaring attitude that you do; you must think American’s (heck, all of the West and the Far East, for that matter, with Idonesia and the like conveniently ignored) are pretty rotten people.
The outrage has been building. The horrific “execution” of a hostage was only a final straw. At best.
The outrage has been building. The horrific “execution” of a hostage was only a final straw. At best.
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