Muslims: Marvelous Protectors of Christianity! (?)

[manualman]

the ghetto is your misconception.

I’m please that you’ve managed to construct a vision in which the jizya required for Jews and Christians living under Sharia is something better than the reality of the subjugation that actually occurred in history wherever it was applied. But your attempt to rewrite history to reflect your admittedly just explanation is simply not accurate.

The reality of Christian existence in lands conquered by Islam is no different than it sounds. The Islamic leadership forced the Jews and Christians to pay protection money. Protection from whom? The Islamic leaders, of course! It’s an atrocious inaccuracy to claim that theirs was merely a “separate but equal” tax structure under the government. Americans were once susceptible to that kind of self-delusion, but we’ve come a long way towards recognizing it as rationalizing evil.

History shows very clearly that when muslims establish political power over people of other religions, they use it to dominate them. That said, I honestly do wish you well in your attempts to reform what Islam is into something that is more in line with the principles necessary for a just and healthy society. I’m just not convinced that there are enough of you out there yet to pull it off.

 

[peace_at_last]

Please substantiate that claim.

edition.cnn.com/2013/09/12/politics/syria-arming-rebels/
washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/06/27/obama-wants-500-million-to-train-syrian-rebels-now-what/
nytimes.com/2012/06/21/world/middleeast/cia-said-to-aid-in-steering-arms-to-syrian-rebels.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/09/07/Syrians-Rebels-Kerry-Called-Moderate-Post-Videos-Of-Their-Attack-On-Christian-Town
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

I have no doubt this happened, but provide details from a legitimate source.

mcclatchydc.com/2014/04/15/224530/syrian-regime-retakes-christian.html
patdollard.com/2014/04/assad-makes-easter-visit-to-christian-town-his-army-liberated-from-al-qaeda/
religiousfreedomcoalition.org/2014/06/15/christian-town-of-kasab-liberated-from-jihadists/
liveleak.com/browse?q=Maaloula&sort_by=shared

Again, please provide details from a credible news source.

Just google ISIS war crimes

Finally, I find your characterization of U.S. indifference a little off the mark. I agree with you to some extent; the feeling in the U.S. is only natural (i.e. Iraq (the entire region really) and its religious troubles is not something we are anxious to re-visit.) You codemn this country for not caring about muslims, then in the same breath admit the indifference carries equally to Christians.
We are walking a tightrope, where there is no acceptable solution. Example, if we fight the terrorists in one location we are the “good guys,” in another location we would be seen as assisting a ruthless dictator.

We don’t need the US to fight them. It suffices if the US stops supporting them and stops supporting the Gulf Arab allies who are supporting them.

And if you don’t think publically chopping the head off a person isn’t going to get the emotions going, you’re a poor judge of human nature. A lot of the hype can be attibuted the the news media itself – the victim wass one of their own, after all. (Maybe quit watching TV and talk to real people.) I don’t sense the ruthless, uncaring attitude that you do; you must think American’s (heck, all of the West and the Far East, for that matter, with Idonesia and the like conveniently ignored) are pretty rotten people.
The outrage has been building. The horrific “execution” of a hostage was only a final straw. At best.

My point was US government only showed a strong reaction when an American was beheaded. Take a look at the syria section on liveleak.com. Videos of public beheadings are posted daily. Many of the beheadings are done by groups that received US support (see links I provided above). The US government didn’t really care until a US citizen was beheaded. The Chrisitians were being killed by the same groups the US was supporting but since they were rebelling against the Syrian government, the US didn’t do much. As long as the rebels were rebelling against an enemy of Israel it seems, tough luck for those being beheaded, but as soon as an American is beheaded: Oh no! We have to do something about this crime against humanity.

One dead US reporter is valued more than thousands of dead Christians/Shias/Yazidis/Alawis/Kurds. I find that immoral and unacceptable.

 

[peace_at_last]

I’m please that you’ve managed to construct a vision in which the jizya required for Jews and Christians living under Sharia is something better than the reality of the subjugation that actually occurred in history wherever it was applied. But your attempt to rewrite history to reflect your admittedly just explanation is simply not accurate.

The reality of Christian existence in lands conquered by Islam is no different than it sounds. The Islamic leadership forced the Jews and Christians to pay protection money. Protection from whom? The Islamic leaders, of course! It’s an atrocious inaccuracy to claim that theirs was merely a “separate but equal” tax structure under the government. Americans were once susceptible to that kind of self-delusion, but we’ve come a long way towards recognizing it as rationalizing evil.

History shows very clearly that when muslims establish political power over people of other religions, they use it to dominate them. That said, I honestly do wish you well in your attempts to reform what Islam is into something that is more in line with the principles necessary for a just and healthy society. I’m just not convinced that there are enough of you out there yet to pull it off.

Iran/Syria/Iraq 3 countries with Islamic governments and Christian minorities. Not a single Christian paid Jizya and they paid taxes like all Muslims. As I showed in the link in my previous post, the jaziya law can be completely disregarded for any reason the government deems appropriate.

The fake non-Muslim ISIS terrorists came along and everything changed.

 

[LtTony]

edition.cnn.com/2013/09/12/politics/syria-arming-rebels/
washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/06/27/obama-wants-500-million-to-train-syrian-rebels-now-what/
nytimes.com/2012/06/21/world/middleeast/cia-said-to-aid-in-steering-arms-to-syrian-rebels.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/09/07/Syrians-Rebels-Kerry-Called-Moderate-Post-Videos-Of-Their-Attack-On-Christian-Town
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

These links don’t exactly substantiate what you are claiming – “The terrorists in Iraq and Syria had full US support and received money and logistics when they were killing Shias and Alawis in Syria and Iraq.”

Instead, they demonstarte the dilema the Free World finds itself with this religious in-fighting mixed with political rebellions. The U.S. supported, at one time, moderate elements opposed to the Syrian regime. Do you support Assad?

cnn.com/2013/09/06/world/meast/syria-rebels/

I will read the other links later.

 

[peace_at_last]

These links don’t exactly substantiate what you are claiming – “The terrorists in Iraq and Syria had full US support and received money and logistics when they were killing Shias and Alawis in Syria and Iraq.”

Instead, they demonstarte the dilema the Free World finds itself with this religious in-fighting mixed with political rebellions. The U.S. supported, at one time, moderate elements opposed to the Syrian regime. Do you support Assad?

cnn.com/2013/09/06/world/meast/syria-rebels/

I will read the other links later.

There are no moderates among the Syrian rebels. Assad might not have been an angel, and neither are the leaders of other countries, but under his rule the country was fairly stable. How many Christians did he kill/behead/displace? Who should we thank for the chaos and death of the thousands now?

Assad compared to the so called moderate rebels is an angel. Between Assad and the rebels, the civilized world should have chosen Assad. Instead they chose the rebels.

 

[LtTony]

Would you say the U.S. supports ISIS?

Add: I think there is a lot of truth to what you say about Assad. That was the U.S. position for him and other leaders in the region for some time. We were criticized for that, too. I say let Syria decide Syria. They don’t need us. But many Muslims were calling for us to become involved and support the rebels.

 

[manualman]

Iran/Syria/Iraq 3 countries with Islamic governments and Christian minorities. Not a single Christian paid Jizya and they paid taxes like all Muslims. As I showed in the link in my previous post, the jaziya law can be completely disregarded for any reason the government deems appropriate.

The fake non-Muslim ISIS terrorists came along and everything changed.

Two of those three countries had nominally muslim dictators who allowed imams to have zero influence on their governmental policies. Iran keeps a sort of Jewish zoo community that they use to show the world that they aren’t Jew-haters (little known fact: there is a subset of orthodox Judaism that believes human attempts to re-establish the nation of Israel rather than waiting for Messiah to do it is blasphemous. These are the sorts of ‘useful Jews’ that Iran keeps in their zoo for display to the world.) Iran also fairly regularly imprisons Christians found guilty of the terrible crime of telling others of their faith in Jesus Christ.

I’ll certainly grant you may have a point on the strange relationship between the USA and the Saudi royal family. You’re probably right that that is a cynical relationship based on money rather than on mutual respect. I wonder how long it can go on before the Wahabi lid blows off.

But really? You’re going to claim ISIS is non-muslim?

 

[LtTony]

As long as the rebels were rebelling against an enemy of Israel it seems…

I wondered how long it would take for Israel to come up.

 

[LtTony]

There are no moderates among the Syrian rebels. Assad might not have been an angel, and neither are the leaders of other countries, but under his rule the country was fairly stable. How many Christians did he kill/behead/displace? Who should we thank for the chaos and death of the thousands now?

Assad compared to the so called moderate rebels is an angel. Between Assad and the rebels, the civilized world should have chosen Assad. Instead they chose the rebels.

As I said earler, there is definitely some truth in the stability Assad offered. But it seems you view most of the groups opposed to him as “terrorist.” I’m sure some are, as we have seen. But I am uncertain if the demonstrators a year ago were terrorists. I think they were terrorized.

 

[peace_at_last]

Would you say the U.S. supports ISIS?

Add: I think there is a lot of truth to what you say about Assad. That was the U.S. position for him and other leaders in the region for some time. We were criticized for that, too. I say let Syria decide Syria. They don’t need us. But many Muslims were calling for us to become involved and support the rebels.

I believe the same Muslims that were calling you to support the rebels, are the same groups that are supporting the terrorists now and not protesting their actions?
The US knew what the rebels were capable of doing, but it was in US interest to weaken the Assad government for reasons I find unjustifiable. Saudi Arabia and Bahrain are much much worse than the Assad government but no one cares as long as they are allies.

In the current situation, the US is not directly supporting the ISIS, but it isn’t doing much about it either. The US only recently (one week ago) started to engage ISIS on a very small scale. Ironically, US action only started when ISIS started attacking US interests in Kurdistan Iraq. The mass executions of civilians didn’t prompt a reaction from the US and apparently, the current humanitarian crisis isn’t of concern either.

What really disturbs me is that the supporters of ISIS are US allies. Yet, they are not called terrorists by the US and no red light is given to them, but the governments fighting the ISIS on the ground are all portrayed as terrorist supporting groups: Iran/Hezbollah/Iraqi Shia Militias/Syrians.

Unfortunately, no one cares for human lives, all that matters are oil and geopolitical interests.

 

[peace_at_last]

[No message]

 

[tonyfish58]

And how does this differ from Christians, Jews, etc?

Christians believe that the constraints of the Old Law – keeping kosher, circumcision, etc – were lifted by the New Covenant. The Muslims believe the OT and NT were corrupted and supplanted by the Qu’ran. The Baha’i believe the writings of Baha’ullah supersede all of the above. And the Jews think we’re all nertz.

John - Thank you for the Just outlook and reply on that quoted statement

Can I please note there are two aspects to this issue as follows;

You are correct that we believe the new Revealed Word that contains New Laws does supersede and replace all previous law and is applicable for all mankind, as to the remainder

We do not think of the previous scriptures as being Superseded but as the latest revealed Word being the Fulfillment of previous Scriptures.

Thus mankind is able to use all these scriptures to know and Love God, if one uses the latest scriptures then the others can be better understood.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[peace_at_last]

Two of those three countries had nominally muslim dictators who allowed imams to have zero influence on their governmental policies. Iran keeps a sort of Jewish zoo community that they use to show the world that they aren’t Jew-haters (little known fact: there is a subset of orthodox Judaism that believes human attempts to re-establish the nation of Israel rather than waiting for Messiah to do it is blasphemous. These are the sorts of ‘useful Jews’ that Iran keeps in their zoo for display to the world.) Iran also fairly regularly imprisons Christians found guilty of the terrible crime of telling others of their faith in Jesus Christ.

I’ll certainly grant you may have a point on the strange relationship between the USA and the Saudi royal family. You’re probably right that that is a cynical relationship based on money rather than on mutual respect. I wonder how long it can go on before the Wahabi lid blows off.

But really? You’re going to claim ISIS is non-muslim?

Islam has a definition and a set of laws. Someone claiming to be a Muslim but ignoring the most basic laws and beliefs of Islam, is not a Muslim. even if identified as a Muslim, that person is a disgrace to Islam for not adhering to its teachings and displaying acts of hatred and prejudice in the name of Islam.

You are very misinformed about the situation in Iran.

 

[manualman]

In the current situation, the US is not directly supporting the ISIS, but it isn’t doing much about it either. The US only recently (one week ago) started to engage ISIS on a very small scale. Ironically, US action only started when ISIS started attacking US interests in Kurdistan Iraq. The mass executions of civilians didn’t prompt a reaction from the US and apparently, the current humanitarian crisis isn’t of concern either.
…
Unfortunately, no one cares for human lives, all that matters are oil and geopolitical interests.

If you’re not familiar with USA internal politics I can enlighten you a bit on this end. It’s as bad as you think, but not WHAT you think. The current president’s administration did nothing about ISIS for a while because they were terrified of appearing to send US military to defend Christians in an Islamic country. They were scared that they would then be labeled as “crusaders” by muslim critics. Plus, the administration doesn’t actually care much about the welfare of Christians globally. The plight of the Yazidi people gave them the excuse to respond militarily without appearing to be sending troops to the ‘dar al Islam’ to fight on behalf of Christians.

It wasn’t about one beheaded journalist or about Yazidis, really. You’re right that it’s about oil and geopolitical interests, but much of that geopolitics revolves around the peculiarities of Islamic sensitivities and weird jihadi ideology. You really can’t blame the USA for that.

 

[peace_at_last]

As I said earler, there is definitely some truth in the stability Assad offered. But it seems you view most of the groups opposed to him as “terrorist.” I’m sure some are, as we have seen. But I am uncertain if the demonstrators a year ago were terrorists. I think they were terrorized.

I said there are no moderates amongst the rebels. By rebels I mean those who started armed resistance. The political opponents are on the sidelines.

 

[LtTony]

If you’re not familiar with USA internal politics I can enlighten you a bit on this end. It’s as bad as you think, but not WHAT you think. The current president’s administration did nothing about ISIS for a while because they were terrified of appearing to send US military to defend Christians in an Islamic country. They were scared that they would then be labeled as “crusaders” by muslim critics. Plus, the administration doesn’t actually care much about the welfare of Christians globally. The plight of the Yazidi people gave them the excuse to respond militarily without appearing to be sending troops to the ‘dar al Islam’ to fight on behalf of Christians.

It wasn’t about one beheaded journalist or about Yazidis, really. You’re right that it’s about oil and geopolitical interests, but much of that geopolitics revolves around the peculiarities of Islamic sensitivities and weird jihadi ideology. You really can’t blame the USA for that.

That’s exactly the tightrope I was talking about. Peace at last seems oblivious to it. There is nothing the U.S. can do that will satisfy all muslims, even those who sincerely seek justice, and there are many of those.

 

[peace_at_last]

Jizya for a westerner in simple terms: Non-Us citizen wants to become citizen of US. The US asks for tax. They refuse to give it. US asks them to leave country. They refuse. US forcefully deports them or forces them to pay up.

Non-Muslim citizen wants to become citizen of Muslim country. The Muslim government asks for tax. They refuse to give it. Muslim country asks them to leave country. They refuse. Muslim country forcefully deports them or forces them to pay up.

It’s not even practiced in Islamic countries today because Sharia allows it to not be implemented, yet we still have people complaining about it.

Do you express opposition to what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians too: The ghetto in Gaza or do you just complain about a Jaziya tax that does not exist in today’s society?

 

[manualman]

You are very misinformed about the situation in Iran.

I have a geotechnical engineer coworker who is an Iranian-American whose family moved here when the Shah was desposed. I’ll be sure to tell him that what he’s told me of Iran is all wrong. Sorry about that.

Great guy, by the way and Persian culture sounds to be fascinating. How the ayatollahs there keep such a people under their boots I can’t understand.

 

[peace_at_last]

That’s exactly the tightrope I was talking about. Peace at last seems oblivious to it. There is nothing the U.S. can do that will satisfy all muslims, even those who sincerely seek justice, and there are many of those.

We don’t want the US to do anything about it. We don’t want the US to satisfy us. Just tell Uncle Sam to stop meddling in the middle East and leave us in peace. But Uncle Sam has way too many geo-political interests in the region and it will not stop meddling.

 

[manualman]

Do you express opposition to what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians too: The ghetto in Gaza or do you just complain about a Jaziya tax that does not exist in today’s society?

It would be a sidetrack to start arguing about Israel vs the Palestinians, so I won’t. For purposes of this discussion, suffice it to say that absolutely nothing in the religious teachings of Judaism instructs them to oppress Palestinians. If, for the sake of discussion, they are doing so, it’s their own human failings.

The oppression of Jewish and Christian populations by muslims, on the contrary, is directed ordered by Muhammed and by implication Allah in the Koran. Is it not?

You don’t see a difference in basis of concern?