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Superstar905
Guest
this was posted on CARM forums, with no answer. I’m just curious, as I don’t know too much about Islam at all, except that terrorists profess Islam as their reason for terror. (not my view, just my observation)
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Thorondir
Guest
Their answers will be lies. The Koran makes it a “virtue” to lie to the infidel to weaken him and also to lie to one’s wife and children to smooth things out if caught in indiscretion. It’s called Taqqiya.
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Superstar905
Guest
Really? Where can this teaching be found in the Koran (who I am admittedly ignorant of).Their answers will be lies. The Koran makes it a “virtue” to lie to the infidel to weaken him and also to lie to one’s wife and children to smooth things out if caught in indiscretion. It’s called Taqqiya.
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Rolltide
Guest
I would take Thorondir’s answers with a grain of salt, as he takes a very extremist position toward Islam.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Taqiyya is mainly a Shia concept but Sunnis also believe in it.Really? Where can this teaching be found in the Koran (who I am admittedly ignorant of).
“Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith, but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.” Sura 16:106
The hadiths and biographies also show Muhammad lying or permitting his followers to lie in order to achieve his aims of killing his opponents.
Here is an Islamist’s theological explanation of taqiyya:
al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/1.html
Assallamu `Alaykum,
Today, I would like to present the concept of “al-Taqiyya” in the following exposition. This topic is as thorny as previous ones have been, and many people have experienced great difficulty in trying to understand it. I pray to Allah (SWT) that this discussion will help loosen some of the intellectual rust that has accumulated over the years in many peoples’ minds. The interminable negative propaganda that people are bombarded with on a daily basis serves to nurture feelings of animosity and disbelief towards the Shia; additionally, it may promote the explicit denial of proven facts and truths. Nonetheless, you owe it to yourself to search for the truth; and, indeed, Allah (SWT) has commanded that you do. As such, it is your prerogative to believe or reject everything that the Shia claim; but my plea is that the next time you hear a discussion about the Shia in your Mosque, or any place else, please remember my posts, and question the person who is discussing the topic. Only then, will you see my point, In Sha’ Allah (SWT).
I intend to demonstrate and prove that the concept of “al-Taqiyya” is an integral part of Islam, and that it is NOT a Shi’ite concoction.
As usual, the two perspectives, the Sunnis and the Shia, will be presented to maintain a level of fairness and integrity in the reporting of this topic.
============ Introduction ============ The word “al-Taqiyya” literally means: “Concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of eminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury.” A one-word translation would be “Dissimulation.”
The above definition must be elaborated upon before any undertaking of this topic is to ensue. Although correct, the definition suffers from an apparent generalization, and lacks some fundamental details that should be construed:
First, the CONCEALMENT of one’s beliefs does NOT necessitate an ABANDONMENT of these beliefs. The distinction between “concealment” and “abandonment” MUST be noted here.
Second, there are numerous exceptions to the above definition, and they MUST be judged according to the situation that one is placed in. As such, one should NOT make a narrow-minded generalization that encompasses all situations, thereby failing to fully absorb the spirit of the definition.
Third, the word “beliefs” and/or “convictions” does NOT necessarily mean “religious” beliefs and/or convictions.
With the above in mind, it becomes evident that a better, and more accurate definition of “al-Taqiyya” is “diplomacy.” The true spirit of “al- Taqiyya” is better embodied in the single word “diplomacy” because it encompasses a comprehensive spectrum of behaviors that serve to further the vested interests of all parties involved. Sunni Sources in Support of al-Taqiyya ====================================== The following exposition will Insha Allah demonstrate the existence of al-Taqiyya in the Quran, Hadith, the Prophet’s (PBUH&HF) custom, and the companions’ custom. As usual, Sunni books will be used to further the argument. This is in keeping with the commitment to reveal the truth by showing that the Sunnis reject the Shia’s arguments, while THEIR OWN books are replete (full) with the SAME ideologies that the Shia uphold! Although some Wahhabis staunchly argue their aforementioned statements, and aggressively defame the Shia and refute their doctrines, they have failed to explain the validity of their argument vis-a-vis the existence of these SAME doctrines in their own books, as has been demonstrated in ALL the past posts about the Shia. Those who think that they are the true protectors of the custom of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) and the only guardians of the Islamic Faith, how can they explain their own rejection of that which they are supposed to protect? Rejecting al-Taqiyya is rejecting the Quran, as will be shown shortly.
cont.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Let’s Begin…
Reference 1: ----------- Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti in his book, “al-Durr al-Manthoor Fi al-Tafsir al- Ma’athoor,” narrates Ibn Abbas’, the MOST renowned and trusted narrator of tradition in the sight of the Sunnis, opinion regarding al-Taqiyya in the Quranic verse: “Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, (they) shall have no relation left with Allah except by way of precaution (“tat-taqooh”), that ye may guard yourselves (“tooqatan”) from them…[3:28]” that Ibn Abbas said:
“al-Taqiyya is with the tongue only; he who has been COERCED into saying that which angers Allah (SWT), and his heart is comfortable (i.e., his TRUE faith has NOT been shaken.), then (saying that which he has been coerced to say) will NOT harm him (at all); (because) al- Taqiyya is with the tongue only, (NOT the heart).”
NOTE: The two words “tat-taqooh” and “tooqatan,” as mentioned in the Arabic Quran, are BOTH from the same root of “al-Taqiyya.”
NOTE ALSO: The “heart” as referred to above and in later occurrences refers to the center of faith in an individual’s existence. It is mentioned many times in the Quran.
Reference 2: ----------- Ibn Abbas also commented on the above verse, as narrated in Sunan al- Bayhaqi and Mustadrak al-Hakim, by saying:
“al-Taqiyya is the uttering of the tongue, while the heart is comfortable with faith.”
NOTE: The meaning is that the tongue is permitted to utter anything in a time of need, as long as the heart is not affected; and one is still comfortable with faith.
Hadiths also show Muhammad lying or permitting lies in order to assasinate his enemies:
Sahih Bukhari 5:369
Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf [a poet] who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” …
Islam’s #1 theologian allowed lying in the interests of islam
Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali said: “Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible.” (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, “The Reliance of the Traveller”)
“On the battlefield” (dealing with non-muslims) outwittings are necessary.
Hadrat Ali said that in the battlefield one could not observe the highest standard of truth as a muslim has been exhorted to do in matters of religion. For example in the battlefield one has to hide facts and outwit the enemy." (Hadith Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, ft. #1446)
Reference 1: ----------- Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti in his book, “al-Durr al-Manthoor Fi al-Tafsir al- Ma’athoor,” narrates Ibn Abbas’, the MOST renowned and trusted narrator of tradition in the sight of the Sunnis, opinion regarding al-Taqiyya in the Quranic verse: “Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, (they) shall have no relation left with Allah except by way of precaution (“tat-taqooh”), that ye may guard yourselves (“tooqatan”) from them…[3:28]” that Ibn Abbas said:
“al-Taqiyya is with the tongue only; he who has been COERCED into saying that which angers Allah (SWT), and his heart is comfortable (i.e., his TRUE faith has NOT been shaken.), then (saying that which he has been coerced to say) will NOT harm him (at all); (because) al- Taqiyya is with the tongue only, (NOT the heart).”
NOTE: The two words “tat-taqooh” and “tooqatan,” as mentioned in the Arabic Quran, are BOTH from the same root of “al-Taqiyya.”
NOTE ALSO: The “heart” as referred to above and in later occurrences refers to the center of faith in an individual’s existence. It is mentioned many times in the Quran.
Reference 2: ----------- Ibn Abbas also commented on the above verse, as narrated in Sunan al- Bayhaqi and Mustadrak al-Hakim, by saying:
“al-Taqiyya is the uttering of the tongue, while the heart is comfortable with faith.”
NOTE: The meaning is that the tongue is permitted to utter anything in a time of need, as long as the heart is not affected; and one is still comfortable with faith.
Hadiths also show Muhammad lying or permitting lies in order to assasinate his enemies:
Sahih Bukhari 5:369
Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf [a poet] who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” …
Islam’s #1 theologian allowed lying in the interests of islam
Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali said: “Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible.” (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, “The Reliance of the Traveller”)
“On the battlefield” (dealing with non-muslims) outwittings are necessary.
Hadrat Ali said that in the battlefield one could not observe the highest standard of truth as a muslim has been exhorted to do in matters of religion. For example in the battlefield one has to hide facts and outwit the enemy." (Hadith Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, ft. #1446)
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meedo
Guest
Hello,
All the above is not contradictory with islam. Its actually not contradictory with any faith.
If at war, you make maneuvers to decieve your enemy.
If you are bieng tortured to denounce your faith, God gave you the permission to lie in order to save your life and the lives of the one you care for .
Whats wrong with that ?
I dont like people pointing fingers at Muslims with somthing that they have no problem doing it themselves. Just because Islam makes a rule out of it and you dont doesnt mean that you dont regard it as moral. What an idiot would be a military commander in the US army why in order not to commit the sin of lying he had to tell which way he is going to lead his troops. And what an idiot would be someone who thinks that God forces him to torture even though he can simply escape it by just atturing some stupid words for some stupid people to hear.
I am not talking here about mandatory behavious. You have the right to die a martyr for what you believe in . But God didnt order this as a commandement. He ordered one to have faith in his heart. If you wanna burn your enemy with anger and frustration thats a different option. I Call this mercy not lying!!!
This is a clear case of people twisting what Islam says to suit their demonisation of it.
Lying is not permissible in Islam Except in 3 cases.
1- War
2- To Please one wife or husband ( Like to say to your wife , you are beautiful as the full moon ) . Well , maybe she sint that beautiful but she will be happy to hear it.
3- To mend relations between two disputed parties . ( Like to mention to someone that his friend talks good about him and wishes to have him as a friend again and that they should be more understanding to each other and then go and say the same thing to the other friend) .
There were people whom the prophet ordered killed even if they hang by the kaba curtains. God has clearly given him the authorization to do so . In one of these cases it was kaab ibn al ashraf.
The Quran has examples of sins that God forgiave because the people whom they done it were doing even more horrible sins.
Like The Pagans accused the Muslims of fighting during the Forbidden months. While they themselves had just prevented muslims from enetring mecca for just pilgrimage in defiance to the pact that they signed between each other.
Islam doesnt condone lying . But whomevere wants to find faults in the roses will call them Bloody colored flowers!!!
salam
All the above is not contradictory with islam. Its actually not contradictory with any faith.
If at war, you make maneuvers to decieve your enemy.
If you are bieng tortured to denounce your faith, God gave you the permission to lie in order to save your life and the lives of the one you care for .
Whats wrong with that ?
I dont like people pointing fingers at Muslims with somthing that they have no problem doing it themselves. Just because Islam makes a rule out of it and you dont doesnt mean that you dont regard it as moral. What an idiot would be a military commander in the US army why in order not to commit the sin of lying he had to tell which way he is going to lead his troops. And what an idiot would be someone who thinks that God forces him to torture even though he can simply escape it by just atturing some stupid words for some stupid people to hear.
I am not talking here about mandatory behavious. You have the right to die a martyr for what you believe in . But God didnt order this as a commandement. He ordered one to have faith in his heart. If you wanna burn your enemy with anger and frustration thats a different option. I Call this mercy not lying!!!
This is a clear case of people twisting what Islam says to suit their demonisation of it.
Lying is not permissible in Islam Except in 3 cases.
1- War
2- To Please one wife or husband ( Like to say to your wife , you are beautiful as the full moon ) . Well , maybe she sint that beautiful but she will be happy to hear it.
3- To mend relations between two disputed parties . ( Like to mention to someone that his friend talks good about him and wishes to have him as a friend again and that they should be more understanding to each other and then go and say the same thing to the other friend) .
There were people whom the prophet ordered killed even if they hang by the kaba curtains. God has clearly given him the authorization to do so . In one of these cases it was kaab ibn al ashraf.
The Quran has examples of sins that God forgiave because the people whom they done it were doing even more horrible sins.
Like The Pagans accused the Muslims of fighting during the Forbidden months. While they themselves had just prevented muslims from enetring mecca for just pilgrimage in defiance to the pact that they signed between each other.
Islam doesnt condone lying . But whomevere wants to find faults in the roses will call them Bloody colored flowers!!!
salam
S
Superstar905
Guest
Can anyone answer my original post? Thanks.
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Eden
Guest
You can start here:Really? Where can this teaching be found in the Koran (who I am admittedly ignorant of).
islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml
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Eden
Guest
We’re getting off track here but being allowed to use lying in times of “war” means “always” when dealing with the West since nonbelievers are said to be living the theater of war - always, we are the enemy - always. In other words, lying to non-Muslims is permissible always.Lying is not permissible in Islam Except in 3 cases.
1- War
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Superstar905
Guest
ACtually, that is something I was picking up on. They consider themselves to be at holy war, which will not end until the world converts to Islam. Therefore, how can anyone believe what a muslim has to say, since they have permission in the Koran to lie to people? They are at war, so it’s ok for the to Lie.We’re getting off track here but being allowed to use lying in times of “war” means “always” when dealing with the West since nonbelievers are said to be living the theater of war - always, we are the enemy - always. In other words, lying to non-Muslims is permissible always.
This is off track though. Please, someone answer my original question.
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Eden
Guest
Christ did not teach us to deceive. He preached only truth so we have nothing to lie about. A true Christian also will not deny their Lord even when the punishment is death. That is what a Christian martyr is. Not someone who kills themself and tries to kill as many people as they can with them, but some who is killed by someone *else *because they are Christian. Sr. Leonella who was killed by cowards in Somalia who shot (A WOMAN - IN THE BACK) for being Christian is a martyr and most assuredly, a saint.Whats wrong with that ?
Sorry, I am again taking this way off track. Carry on…
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Superstar905
Guest
No, thats ok, how true. Please God, bring some peace to this world.Christ did not teach us to deceive. He preached only truth so we have nothing to lie about. A true Christian also will not deny their Lord even when the punishment is death. That is what a Christian martyr is. Not someone who kills themself and tries to kill as many people as they can with them, but some who is killed by someone *else *because they are Christian. Sr. Leonella who was killed by cowards in Somalia who shot (A WOMAN - IN THE BACK) for being Christian is a martyr and most assuredly, a saint.
Sorry, I am again taking this way off track. Carry on…
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
It’s not just in war that Muslims permit lying. For one, what is the definition of war? Is the West engaged in a war with Islam at the moment? Many Muslims think so.
Secondly, many Muslims believe taqiyya is permitted as long as the end progress Islam. In other words, the means justify the ends.
Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali said: “Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible.” (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, “The Reliance of the Traveller”)
Secondly, many Muslims believe taqiyya is permitted as long as the end progress Islam. In other words, the means justify the ends.
Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali said: “Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible.” (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, “The Reliance of the Traveller”)
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meedo
Guest
No Prophet taught any body to decieve. And as i said above, you have the choice to die a martyr. But its the choice!! Not threatning that fi you dont die a martyr then you wont be a true christian!!! You do whats best for you and your faith. Every situation is different!! Abraham lied when he said to the King of Egypt that Sarah was his sister. and Guess what !!! God blessed him and he had all the prophets from his decendants.Christ did not teach us to deceive. He preached only truth so we have nothing to lie about. A true Christian also will not deny their Lord even when the punishment is death. That is what a Christian martyr is. Not someone who kills themself and tries to kill as many people as they can with them, but some who is killed by someone *else *because they are Christian. Sr. Leonella who was killed by cowards in Somalia who shot (A WOMAN - IN THE BACK) for being Christian is a martyr and most assuredly, a saint.
Sorry, I am again taking this way off track. Carry on…
What Abraham did was that in his heart he meant that she was his sister in Faith . He lied to a stupid king on surface but his heart was full of faith.
whats wrong with that ?!!
Who do you think would disagree that killing of a Nun is cowardness?
I personally believe it is and also its in full contrast of islam .
Hope you get my message
salam
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Muslim
Guest
read the “medina charter” just to show one thingthis was posted on CARM forums, with no answer. I’m just curious, as I don’t know too much about Islam at all, except that terrorists profess Islam as their reason for terror. (not my view, just my observation)
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cestusdei
Guest
The Muslim that killed that nun was obeying the orders of his imam. It isn’t just uneducated Muslims doing this. Your leaders are encouraging the violence to continue and calling for the death of the Pope.
Deception is part of Islam. For example Muslims don’t mention the abrogation of verses in the Quran that call for tolerance. As soon as Muhammed started to become powerful then his tolerance disappeared and the deceptions became more exposed.
Deception is part of Islam. For example Muslims don’t mention the abrogation of verses in the Quran that call for tolerance. As soon as Muhammed started to become powerful then his tolerance disappeared and the deceptions became more exposed.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
The Medinah Charter is highly suspect as it is not mentioned in any hadiths - sahih or non-sahih. Thousands of hadiths and not a single mention of the Medinah Charter. None of Muhammad’s Companions and wives ever mentioned its existence. It is only mentioned in the sira of Ibn Ishaq which Muslims don’t consider to be authoritative, particularly if not backed up by the hadiths - which it isn’t.
In fact, the sira shows that Muhammad broke article 25 of the Medinah Charter (assuming it existed).
(article 25) The Jews of the B. ‘Auf are one community with the believers (the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs), their freedmen and their persons except those who behave unjustly and sinfully, for they hurt but themselves and their families.
So how come Muhammad threatened the Jews with war unless they converted to Islam?
The apostle assembled them in their market and addressed them as follows: “O Jews, beware lest God bring upon you the vengeance that He brought upon Quraysh and become Muslims. You know that I am a prophet who has been sent - you will find that in your scriptures and God’s covenant with you.” They replied, “O Muhammad, you seem to think that we are your people. Do not deceive yourself because you encountered a people with no knowledge of war and got the better of them; for by God if we fight you, you will find that we are real men!” (Ibn Ishaq, 545)
There is also evidence that the Jews never had any agreement with Muhammad (from the same source).
[T]hey spoke disparagingly of the apostle, saying, `Who is the apostle of God? We have no agreement or undertaking with Muhammad.’ [Sirat, p. 453]
Muslims are nothing if not inconsistent.
In fact, the sira shows that Muhammad broke article 25 of the Medinah Charter (assuming it existed).
(article 25) The Jews of the B. ‘Auf are one community with the believers (the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs), their freedmen and their persons except those who behave unjustly and sinfully, for they hurt but themselves and their families.
So how come Muhammad threatened the Jews with war unless they converted to Islam?
The apostle assembled them in their market and addressed them as follows: “O Jews, beware lest God bring upon you the vengeance that He brought upon Quraysh and become Muslims. You know that I am a prophet who has been sent - you will find that in your scriptures and God’s covenant with you.” They replied, “O Muhammad, you seem to think that we are your people. Do not deceive yourself because you encountered a people with no knowledge of war and got the better of them; for by God if we fight you, you will find that we are real men!” (Ibn Ishaq, 545)
There is also evidence that the Jews never had any agreement with Muhammad (from the same source).
[T]hey spoke disparagingly of the apostle, saying, `Who is the apostle of God? We have no agreement or undertaking with Muhammad.’ [Sirat, p. 453]
Muslims are nothing if not inconsistent.
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Image_of_God
Guest
Have you read meedo’s post. At least acknowledge from an actual Muslim before continuing to make observations.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Image of God,
Who and what are you referring to?
Who and what are you referring to?
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