Muslims please... Gabriel

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Just as Planten stated earlier in this post below: Where was it stated in the bible?
"The Angel Gabriel told Mary that she would have the Son of God. Not just a man…but the Incarnation of God. The GREAT I AM! The Word made Flesh. God…not a metaphor…but True God

Where did this statement appear in the above quote from Luke? The GREAT I AM.

As spn82756 said, that’s a misunderstanding of the dialogue between himself and planten.

Second Which disciple was Luke?? I forget which one of the 12 he was.
Was Luke written by Luke?

Luke was one of the 70+ apostles of Christ. Remember that Christ didn’t only have 12 disciples, only 12 that were His top people (John 6 details many of his disciples leaving Him). In regards to the gospel, yes, Luke was written by Luke.

If I were Muslim I would answer:

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.

Christians would agree on that, except for the begotten part, mainly because Islam has no concept of what “begotten” means in Christian theology regarding the Father and the Son. They say it like Christ was the literal son of God like I’m a son to my father, when the term “begotten” in Trinitarian dogma refers to the procession of the Son from the Father.

 

[hamba2han]

I remember seeing a talk given by the late Ahmed Deedat in which he says that he has asked so many Christians over the years on what the word “begotten” really means in the Bible… but only one dared to give him the answer.

The answer given to him by the Christian was not pleasant to the ears because it conjured up a gross picture of the Lord in one’s mind.

And so, I am asking the Christians on these boards whether they would have a pleasant but yet precise definition of what the word “begotten” means as it relates to the story of Mary and Jesus (peace be upon them) in the Bible?

 

[Rv_Cain_Spencer]

Angel Jibreel(i.e.Gabriel) is the Angel of Revelation -peace be upon him.

The Qur’aan says [from what can be translated]:

19:19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

There is no mention of Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him) being described as the ‘Son of God’ nor the ‘Incarnate God’.

In fact, Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him) says about himself when he was born and spoke to the people who was slandering his mother;

“Qala innee 'Abdul lah,”

19:30 He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah,”

In Islam it is kufr/blasphemy to say anything created is comparable to Allaah, or to say that Allaah became creation or to say that Allaah had a child.

19:93 Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to ((Allah)) Most Gracious as a servant.

I would very quietly like to just mention that Mohummad said pretty much the same things Joseph Smith said…

If you don’t know who Joseph Smith is then maybe this will explain it quickly; he claims to have recieved a message from God telling him what was lies in the church and what was truth. He then claims that God filled in all the gaps that were not mentioned in the sacred pages… Joseph Smith wrote fiction and fantasy. Then he called it truth while claiming that what was already taught in the churches were corrupt lies… See how that is the same with Mohummad?

The problem is this, how do you decide wether or not someone has honestly recieved revelation from God? The truth is this; you can’t. So to believe either Mohummad or Joseph Smith is to gamble with your soul.

 

[planten]

I would very quietly like to just mention that Mohummad said pretty much the same things Joseph Smith said…

If you don’t know who Joseph Smith is then maybe this will explain it quickly; he claims to have recieved a message from God telling him what was lies in the church and what was truth. He then claims that God filled in all the gaps that were not mentioned in the sacred pages… Joseph Smith wrote fiction and fantasy. Then he called it truth while claiming that what was already taught in the churches were corrupt lies… See how that is the same with Mohummad?

The problem is this, how do you decide wether or not someone has honestly recieved revelation from God? The truth is this; you can’t. So to believe either Mohummad or Joseph Smith is to gamble with your soul.

Rev Cain Spencer, I ask you about the claim of Joseph Smith. What did he claim for himself??

1. Did he say that he was God?
2. Did he say that he was son of God?
3. Did he say that he was a prophet or messenger of God?

Please tell exactly about the above correctly, if you know definitely. Then there will be further easy correspondence with you soon. You have asked a good question. The reply is not difficult. Welcome.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I remember seeing a talk given by the late Ahmed Deedat…

That was your first mistake. Watching Ahmed Deedat for Christian theology would be like me watching Dave Hunt for Islamic theology. Deedat was so wrong on so many levels and has been refuted by serious Christian scholars so many times even after his death that I’m amazed when Muslims still cite him as a source. Really, he did Islamic apologetics a disservice by introducing a lot of self-destructive arguments that only come across as edifying if you’re doing nothing but preaching to the choir. I would highly suggest throwing out Deedat and just going to Christian apologetics to understand it from the other point of view.

And so, I am asking the Christians on these boards whether they would have a pleasant but yet precise definition of what the word “begotten” means as it relates to the story of Mary and Jesus (peace be upon them) in the Bible?

Christ is referred to as the “only begotten” in reference to His role in the Trinity, so really it has nothing to do with the Incarnation or the Virgin Mary directly. He is not literally born as if before creation God found a woman and procreated with her, but He is sent from the Father (John 5:37-38) somewhat in the same manner that the Holy Spirit is sent from the Father (John 15:26). This is known as the royal procession within the Trinity. It also refers to His role with mankind, for those who believe in Him are all brothers and sisters in Christ (Matt 12:47-49) and through Him we become God’s sons and daughters (Rom 8:14; 2 Cor 6:18; John 1:12).

 

[Vile_Servant]

I remember seeing a talk given by the late Ahmed Deedat in which he says that he has asked so many Christians over the years on what the word “begotten” really means in the Bible… but only one dared to give him the answer.

The answer given to him by the Christian was not pleasant to the ears because it conjured up a gross picture of the Lord in one’s mind.

And so, I am asking the Christians on these boards whether they would have a pleasant but yet precise definition of what the word “begotten” means as it relates to the story of Mary and Jesus (peace be upon them) in the Bible?

“begotten” as it relates to the story of Mary and Jesus means;
Jesus Christ was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.

Both the Bible and the Quran affirm this.

Luke 1:34-35
Mary said to the angel, ‘How can this be, since I am a virgin?’
The angel said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be holy; he will be called Son of God.

Matthew 1:20
But just when he had resolved to do this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, ‘Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Quran 21.91
And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our spirit and made her and her son a sign for the peoples.

Quran 19.22
So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

 

[hamba2han]

This is the definition of the word ‘beget’ that I got from an online dictionary.

beget : To father; sire.

“The only begotten son of God” would then mean “the only son sired by ____” (I cannot bring myself to put the word ‘God’ into this phrase).

Am I wrong in my definition of the word ‘begotten’?

 

[hamba2han]

Ahmed Deedat did not produce this online dictionary.

 

[Vile_Servant]

This is the definition of the word ‘beget’ that I got from an online dictionary.

beget : To father; sire.

“The only begotten son of God” would then mean “the only son sired by ____” (I cannot bring myself to put the word ‘God’ into this phrase).

Am I wrong in my definition of the word ‘begotten’?

According to Collins Concise Dictionary,

“beget” (verb) : 1. to father 2. to cause or create
“father” (verb) : to procreate or generate (offspring)

The only begotten Son of God would then mean “the only Son fathered (procreated or generated) by God.”

No problems there.

 

[hamba2han]

According to Collins Concise Dictionary,

“beget” (verb) : 1. to father 2. to cause or create
“father” (verb) : to procreate or generate (offspring)

The only begotten Son of God would then mean “the only Son fathered (procreated or generated) by God.”

No problems there.

‘Beget’ is a verb… and that means it denotes an action.

It is this particular action which is the problem when trying to visualize what Almighty God is supposed to have done in the story of Mary according to the Bible.

 

[Vile_Servant]

‘Beget’ is a verb… and that means it denotes an action.

It is this particular action which is the problem when trying to visualize what Almighty God is supposed to have done in the story of Mary according to the Bible.

No problem, the actions are all there;

Almighty God breathed his Word into the immaculate womb of Mary, and by the power of the Holy Spirit proceeding from God, the Word was made flesh, and Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb.

What a wonderful act of fathering (procreation or generation) !

 

[hamba2han]

No problem, the actions are all there;

Almighty God breathed his Word into the immaculate womb of Mary, and by the power of the Holy Spirit proceeding from God, the Word was made flesh, and Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb.

What a wonderful act of fathering (procreation or generation) !

Wouldn’t it be much better and accurate then to say “the only breathed son of God”?

Why even use the word “begotten” since, according to your description, it is not necessary at all to use this word?

 

[spn82756]

Wouldn’t it be much better and accurate then to say “the only breathed son of God”?

Why even use the word “begotten” since, according to your description, it is not necessary at all to use this word?

Now that is just getting silly!

 

[Vile_Servant]

Wouldn’t it be much better and accurate then to say “the only breathed son of God”?

Why even use the word “begotten” since, according to your description, it is not necessary at all to use this word?

The word “begotten” is necessary here, because Jesus was born of a woman.

Adam, on the other hand, was “made” because he was formed from clay and God “breathed” life into him. Adam was not born of a woman.

All this happened according to fulfil the prophecy of Isaiah, and to manifest the Sign from Almighty God, that the Virgin shall conceive shall bear a Son, and he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (i.e. the Son of God and the Messiah).

 

[Rv_Cain_Spencer]

Rev Cain Spencer, I ask you about the claim of Joseph Smith.

What did he claim for himself??

He claimed to have a message directly from God; that we were all in heresy, had strayed too far from the truth, and that Christ original message had been so badly corrupted that it had to be restated all over again by Joseph Smith himself.

1. Did he say that he was God?

No, he did not claim to be God.

1. Did he say that he was son of God?

No, he didn’t.

1. Did he say that he was a prophet or messenger of God?

Yes, he did.

Please tell exactly about the above correctly, if you know definitely.

Okay, I hope that wrapped it up well enough for you.

Then there will be further easy correspondence with you soon.

Okay, fire away.

You have asked a good question. The reply is not difficult. Welcome.

Can you please allow me to go even further? Mohummad, was alive 600 years after Jesus lived, right? Islam says that the apostles must have been lying about Jesus becuase if the letters were wrote 60 years after Jesus died then surely those apostles were dead by now? The apostle Paul is a good example, Islam says that he never walked or talked with Christ. Therefore everything he wrote was not Jesus’s words? But even Mohummad was not alive when Jesus was, and yet Mohummad claimed to know the truth about Jesus.

The problem is this; anyone can say that they have a message from God, or a new way that we should live and worship. But how can we trust anyone who makes such a claim?

 

[schaick]

Can you please allow me to go even further? Mohummad, was alive 600 years after Jesus lived, right? Islam says that the apostles must have been lying about Jesus becuase if the letters were wrote 60 years after Jesus died then surely those apostles were dead by now? The apostle Paul is a good example, Islam says that he never walked or talked with Christ. Therefore everything he wrote was not Jesus’s words? But even Mohummad was not alive when Jesus was, and yet Mohummad claimed to know the truth about Jesus.

The problem is this; anyone can say that they have a message from God, or a new way that we should live and worship. But how can we trust anyone who makes such a claim?

BUT how could the disciples lie when there were witnesses?

Paul completely changed his whole life after seeing Jesus on his was to Damascus.

In Paul’s case we see that there were eyewitnesses to the event and then an outside witness in Ananias who Jesus went to and told about Paul.

In Islam it is simply Mohammad’s word he could say anything and no one would be the wiser.

In Christianity we have dozens of people that were at the different events in Jesus life. Either a whole lot of people were involved in a lie or it is the truth.

 

[planten]

The word “begotten” is necessary here, because Jesus was born of a woman.

Vile Servant, thank you for telling us about the word “begotten” that it was necessary. We know that necessity is the mother of all inverntions. We believe that you are right in inventing the word “begotten”.

Adam, on the other hand, was “made” because he was formed from clay and God “breathed” life into him. Adam was not born of a woman.

Not true. The case of Adam and Jesus was the same. Adam was not made from clay. That is the Islamic teaching from the Quran. Adam was not the first man on earth. The earth is not 6000 years old. All those are christian beliefs.

All this happened according to fulfil the prophecy of Isaiah, and to manifest the Sign from Almighty God, that the Virgin shall conceive shall bear a Son, and he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (i.e. the Son of God and the Messiah).

I am sorry. I have to disagree with you about Jesus being a counsellor,about Jesus being a Mighty God, about Jesus being everlasting Father, How could Jesus be the everlasting Father?? Can you explain??

Jesus was not any prince of Peace. He did not see any Peace and did not give any Peace to any one. He himself had said that he had not come to bring Peace in the world. He said that he had come to bring sword… It is all in the bibleNT.

You have made Jesus the son of God and the Messiah and also the everlasting Father. all at the same time. Can you please stop at anything??

 

[spn82756]

Vile Servant, thank you for telling us about the word “begotten” that it was necessary. We know that necessity is the mothe rof inverntion. We believe that you are right in inventing the word “begotten”.

Not true. The case of Adam and Jesus was the same. Adam was not made from clay. That is the Islamic teaching from the Quran. Adam was not the first man on earth. The earth is not 6000 years old. All those are christian beliefs.

I am sorry. I have to disagree with you about Jesus being a counsellor,a bout Jesus being a Mighty God, about Jesus being everlasting Father, How could Jesus be the everlasting Father?? Can you explain??

Jesus was not any prince of Peace. He did not see any Peace and did not give any Peace to any one. He himself had said that he had not come to bring Peace in the world. He said that he had come to bring sword… It is all in the bibleNT.

You have made jesus the son of God and the Messiah and also the everlasting Father. Can you please stop at anything??

I cannot speak for vile servant…but I cannot stop preaching the Gospel to disbelievers. It is a matter of eternal death for those who don’t believe…such as yourself.

 

[Vile_Servant]

I cannot speak for vile servant…but I cannot stop preaching the Gospel to disbelievers. It is a matter of eternal death for those who don’t believe…such as yourself.

Neither can I, spn82756

 

[spn82756]

Neither can I, spn82756