Muslims please... Gabriel

[Vile_Servant]

Jesus was not any prince of Peace. He did not see any Peace and did not give any Peace to any one. He himself had said that he had not come to bring Peace in the world. He said that he had come to bring sword… It is all in the bibleNT.

I thought it was customary for Muslims to venerate Jesus (along with all Messengers of Allah) with a “Peace be unto him” (pbuh) ? Do you believe that Jesus was the Messiah (al Masih) and Messenger from Allah?

 

[SonofAdam]

I thought it was customary for Muslims to venerate Jesus (along with all Messengers of Allah) with a “Peace be unto him” (pbuh) ? Do you believe that Jesus was the Messiah (al Masih) and Messenger from Allah?

yes

 

[planten]

I thought it was customary for Muslims to venerate Jesus (along with all Messengers of Allah) with a “Peace be unto him” (pbuh) ? Do you believe that Jesus was the Messiah (al Masih) and Messenger from Allah?

Yes, I do. Jesus is the Promised Messiah of the Jews. We believe that and we also believe Jesus is the messenger of God to the Jews.

 

[spn82756]

Yes, I do. Jesus is the Promised Messiah of the Jews. We believe that and we also believe Jesus is the messenger of God to the Jews.

Not a messenger to mankind? Not only a messenger to mankind…but a Divine Messenger. The Son of God. The only way to eternal life with God.

 

[planten]

Rv Cain Spencer, you had asked me about how to know the right claimant from the false one. You specially asked me about Joseph Smith. You believe that Joseph claimed that he received Wahi (Revelation) from God.He published (made public) the actual words of the Wahi.

You know about that. I do not know about what was the claim of Joseph Smith. I have nothing against him. He tried to be a messenger from God. Not my messenger. If he was a false persona nd he was not a real true messenger of God then God will deal with him.It is not my duty to pick up an axe to kill him.

God will always kill the false messenger.It is written in Quran and also in bibleOT (Deut 18:18). There is no need to worry about it. WE need not worry about such persons. But we must try to listen to those who claim to have a message from God.

 

[planten]

** Originally Posted by hamba2han
Wouldn’t it be much better and accurate then to say “the only breathed son **of God”?

I liked the good suggestion of hamba. The Catholics should take the advice and change over to “Breathed son” instead of “begotten son.”. What a good idea from hamba !!

 

[Vile_Servant]

God will always kill the false messenger.It is written in Quran and also in bibleOT (Deut 18:18). There is no need to worry about it. WE need not worry about such persons. But we must try to listen to those who claim to have a message from God.

Do you believe that there was a prophet after the prophet Muhammed? And if so, was he a “false messenger”?

 

[Vile_Servant]

I liked the good suggestion of hamba. The Catholics should take the advice and change over to “Breathed son” instead of “begotten son.”. What a good idea from hamba !!

planten, I’m sorry to have to tell you that hamba, SonofAdam and the vast majority of other Muslims on CAF hardly consider you to be a Muslim. But you will always have our love.

 

[GerrardLerux]

Angel Jibreel(i.e.Gabriel) is the Angel of Revelation -peace be upon him.

The Qur’aan says [from what can be translated]:

19:19 He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

There is no mention of Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him) being described as the ‘Son of God’ nor the ‘Incarnate God’.

In fact, Prophet Jesus(peace be upon him) says about himself when he was born and spoke to the people who was slandering his mother;

“Qala innee 'Abdul lah,”

19:30 He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah,”

In Islam it is kufr/blasphemy to say anything created is comparable to Allaah, or to say that Allaah became creation or to say that Allaah had a child.

19:93 Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to ((Allah)) Most Gracious as a servant.

**Here is the flaw in the Islamic response. Jesus is being called the ‘word of Allah’ and since Islamic apologists attribute an everlasting quality to the ‘word of Allah’ it becomes an inescapable fact that Islamic theology sets Jesus aside as an ‘eternal servant’ that co-exists with Allah. Christians can explain this with a Trinitarian formula, but Unitarianist presupposition leaves too much unanswered. Depending on which Quran translation is being used, the basic fact is that Allah bestowed upon Mary the Spirit that would then be born as Jesus. Jesus was then ‘fortified’ by the Holy Spirit during his lifelong ministry. Its as if Muslims want to ignore the obvious message that springs out of these particular verses by adding ‘say not trinity’ [4.171] You see, Allah is ‘holy and beyond having a son’ [4.171] yet has a Spirit that is seperate from Allah and strengthened Jesus [2.253]. Like it or not, Allah may be one is being, but he is plural in persons. There is way more Trinitarian dogma in the Quran that there is in the Bible. **

 

[SonofAdam]

**Here is the flaw in the Islamic response. Jesus is being called the ‘word of Allah’ and since Islamic apologists attribute an everlasting quality to the ‘word of Allah’ it becomes an inescapable fact that Islamic theology sets Jesus aside as an ‘eternal servant’ that co-exists with Allah. Christians can explain this with a Trinitarian formula, but Unitarianist presupposition leaves too much unanswered. Depending on which Quran translation is being used, the basic fact is that Allah bestowed upon Mary the Spirit that would then be born as Jesus. Jesus was then ‘fortified’ by the Holy Spirit during his lifelong ministry. Its as if Muslims want to ignore the obvious message that springs out of these particular verses by adding ‘say not trinity’ [4.171] You see, Allah is ‘holy and beyond having a son’ [4.171] yet has a Spirit that is seperate from Allah and strengthened Jesus [2.253]. Like it or not, Allah may be one is being, but he is plural in persons. There is way more Trinitarian dogma in the Quran that there is in the Bible. **

Not quite…

Imam Ibn Kathir brings the explanation of Ruh ul Allah (Spirt of Allaah) and ‘Word’:

The Meaning of "His Word and a spirit from Him

Abdur-Razzaq narrated that Mamar said that Qatadah said that the Ayah,

وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَـهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ]

(And His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by ] Him means, He said,

كُنَّ]

(Be) and he was. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ahmad bin Sinan Al-Wasiti said that he heard Shadh bin Yahya saying about Allah’s statement,

وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَـهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ]

(and His Word, which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit from [created by ] Him "Isa was not the word. Rather, Isa came to existence because of the word.’’ Al-Bukhari recorded that `Ubadah bin As-Samit said that the Prophet said,

«مَنْ شَهِدَ أَنْ لَا إِلهَ إِلَّا اللهُ، وَحْدَهُ لَا شَرِيكَ لَهُ، وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا عَبْدُهُ وَرَسُولُهُ، وَأَنَّ عِيسَى عَبْدُاللهِ وَرَسُولُهُ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِنْهُ، وَأَنَّ الْجَنَّةَ حَقٌّ، وَالنَّارَ حَقٌّ، أَدْخَلَهُ اللهُ الْجَنَّةَ عَلَى مَا كَانَ مِنَ الْعَمَل»

(If anyone testifies that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah Alone Who has no partners, and that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger, and that `Isa is Allah’s servant and Messenger and His Word which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit created by Him, and that Paradise is true and Hell is true, then Allah will admit him into Paradise with the deeds which he performed.) In another narration, the Prophet said,

«مِنْ أَبْوَابِ الْجَنَّةِ الثَّمَانِيَّةِ يَدْخُلُ مِنْ أَيِّهَا شَاء»

(…through any of the eight doors of Paradise he wishes.) Muslim also recorded it. Therefore, `Ruh from Allah’, in the Ayah and the Hadith is similar to Allah’s statement,

وَسَخَّرَ لَكُمْ مَّا فِى السَّمَـوَتِ وَمَا فِى الاٌّرْضِ جَمِيعاً مِّنْهُ]

(And has subjected to you all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth; it is all from Him.) meaning, from His creation. `from Him’ does not mean that it is a part of Him, as the Christians claim,"

He also says…

Saying that something is from Allah, such as the spirit of Allah, the she-camel of Allah or the House of Allah, is meant to honor such items. Allah said,

هَـذِهِ نَاقَةُ اللَّهِ]

(This is the she-camel of Allah.…) and,

وَطَهِّرْ بَيْتِىَ لِلطَّآئِفِينَ]

(and sanctify My House for those who circumambulate it.) An authentic Hadith states,

«فَأَدْخُلُ عَلَى رَبِّي فِي دَارِه»

(I will enter on my Lord in His Home) All these examples are meant to honor such items when they are attributed to Allah in this manner. {Tafsir Ibn Kathir}

 

[GerrardLerux]

Muslims do not accept the validity of the New Testament; C. S. Lewis’ trilemma does not work with us.

And Christians should place the authority of the Quran right down there with the Book of Mormon.

 

[GerrardLerux]

Not quite…

Imam Ibn Kathir brings the explanation of Ruh ul Allah (Spirt of Allaah) and ‘Word’:

He also says…

I’ll get to a few of these remarks, but least we forget, Ibn Kathir was born in the 14th century, so that is about 600 years after the death of the prophet of Islam. He could hardly be considered an early authentic authority. You are using late sources, rather than letting Arabic speak for itself. But, supposing Muslim commentaries are correct, let’s review a few choice references. Jesus is called ‘the word’ by Muslim [1.378] and **not ** merely created by the word, as is found in Ibn Kathir. Bukhari calls Jesus ‘Allah’s word AND a Spirit’ [6.60.3; 9.93.907]. Islamic commentaries are all over the place when it comes to these topics. Bottom line, on the subject in this thread, your sources are considerably confused.

 

[Vile_Servant]

**Here is the flaw in the Islamic response. Jesus is being called the ‘word of Allah’ and since Islamic apologists attribute an everlasting quality to the ‘word of Allah’ it becomes an inescapable fact that Islamic theology sets Jesus aside as an ‘eternal servant’ that co-exists with Allah. Christians can explain this with a Trinitarian formula, but Unitarianist presupposition leaves too much unanswered. Depending on which Quran translation is being used, the basic fact is that Allah bestowed upon Mary the Spirit that would then be born as Jesus. Jesus was then ‘fortified’ by the Holy Spirit during his lifelong ministry. Its as if Muslims want to ignore the obvious message that springs out of these particular verses by adding ‘say not trinity’ [4.171] You see, Allah is ‘holy and beyond having a son’ [4.171] yet has a Spirit that is seperate from Allah and strengthened Jesus [2.253]. Like it or not, Allah may be one is being, but he is plural in persons. There is way more Trinitarian dogma in the Quran that there is in the Bible. **

well said.

 

[MartinJordan]

I’ll get to a few of these remarks, but least we forget, Ibn Kathir was born in the 14th century, so that is about 600 years after the death of the prophet of Islam. He could hardly be considered an early authentic authority. You are using late sources, rather than letting Arabic speak for itself. But, supposing Muslim commentaries are correct, let’s review a few choice references. Jesus is called ‘the word’ by Muslim [1.378] and **not ** merely created by the word, as is found in Ibn Kathir. Bukhari calls Jesus ‘Allah’s word AND a Spirit’ [6.60.3; 9.93.907]. Islamic commentaries are all over the place when it comes to these topics. Bottom line, on the subject in this thread, your sources are considerably confused.

I have question. Does the above mean that Mohammad actually did understand Jesus is also God?

MJ

 

[GerrardLerux]

I have question. Does the above mean that Mohammad actually did understand Jesus is also God?

MJ

In the poetry of the Muslim prophet, the divinity of Jesus is both *apparent *andbrutally suppressed. That explains why later commentaries had such a hard time making concrete declarations on so many subjects and had to rely on ‘isnad’ and ‘abbrogation’ to settle disputes. Isnad is no more than manufactured hearsay leading back to one of the companions of the prophet, and abbrogation is just a clever way to gloss over the contradictions found throughout the surahs.

Muhammad even considered himself divine. Ask a Muslims what ‘Muhammad’ means and you’ll find it means ‘praised one’. Then go read Surah 1.2; 6.1; 28.70, etc. You will see that ‘all praise is due to Allah’ and Muhammad himself appears to have broken the rules and practiced shirk.

 

[MartinJordan]

In the poetry of the Muslim prophet, the divinity of Jesus is both *apparent *and

brutally suppressed. That explains why later commentaries had such a hard time making concrete declarations on so many subjects and had to rely on ‘isnad’ and ‘abbrogation’ to settle disputes. Isnad is no more than manufactured hearsay leading back to one of the companions of the prophet, and abbrogation is just a clever way to gloss over the contradictions found throughout the surahs.

Muhammad even considered himself divine. Ask a Muslims what ‘Muhammad’ means and you’ll find it means ‘praised one’. Then go read Surah 1.2; 6.1; 28.70, etc. You will see that ‘all praise is due to Allah’ and Muhammad himself appears to have broken the rules and practiced shirk.

I see. Muhammad seems very confused then. Hmmm.

 

[Mosacked]

Okay…I really am not looking for repeated verses from the Koran or debating. My question is…

"The Angel Gabriel told Mary that she would have the Son of God. Not just a man…but the Incarnation of God. The GREAT I AM! The Word made Flesh. God…not a metaphor…but True God.

So…what do you say about the Angel Gabriel that Mohammad claims spoke to him on God’s behalf and denied Jesus is God? Again…no debating. No empty words…PLEASE just answer the question.

To you, that’s what Gabriel said, but to them, Gabriel said a different thing.

Isn’t this the reason why the Bible declares so clearly for us the Anti-Christ in 1 John 2:22 even before the onset of islam? God FORSAW the establishment of the evil cult and cautioned His people way before it even happened.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

 

[planten]

In the poetry of the Muslim prophet, the divinity of Jesus is both *apparent *and

brutally suppressed. That explains why later commentaries had such a hard time making concrete declarations on so many subjects and had to rely on ‘isnad’ and ‘abbrogation’ to settle disputes. Isnad is no more than manufactured hearsay leading back to one of the companions of the prophet, and abbrogation is just a clever way to gloss over the contradictions found throughout the surahs.

Muhammad even considered himself divine. Ask a Muslims what ‘Muhammad’ means and you’ll find it means ‘praised one’. Then go read Surah 1.2; 6.1; 28.70, etc. You will see that ‘all praise is due to Allah’ and Muhammad himself appears to have broken the rules and practiced shirk.

Muhammad never considered himself divine. He was praised by Allah. He did not claim to be God. If he was praised, he was praised by Allah. There was no Shirk. He said that Allah praises him, not the men on earth. The praise of men (or their curse) means nothing. It is the praise by Allah that exalts a person to higher grades. It is also the curse from Allah that kills a person, not the curse of men of this world. Jesus was aware of that. That is why he prayed in the garden, to his God, to avoid the cup (of curse by death on the cross).

More about Muhammad and Ahmad is here… for your enlightenment… please.

Ahmad is the like of Jesus a.s.

Muhammad is the like of Moses a.s. See below:

Our prophet had two names, Muhammad and Ahmad.
Muhammad is the one whom Allah praises more than any one else. That is the one praised by Allah.
Ahmad is the person who praises Allah most of all.
Ahmad is a Jamali name full of peace and love and beauty and gentleness. (Like Jesus)
Muhammad is a Jalali name full of power and dignity and authority. (Like Moses).
Our prophet was the like of Moses and Jesus. Moses was told about the coming of a prophet the like of him from their bretheren. Please note the word “Their brethren”, not the words “his brethren.”
This was told to Moses and it is written in Deut 18:18. A prophet the like of Moses for the Jews from their brethren… So please think who are the brethren of the children of Jacob a.s. i.e. brethren of the children of Issac. They are the Arabs who hail from Ishmael a.s. They cannot be their own brethren !!!

The Jews knew all about it. They knew THAT PROPHET (of Deut 18:18) was going to appear in Arabia. That is why they got settled in Arabia near Madinah. Otherwise they had no right to enter Arab territory. Sara, the mother of the Jews had said that his son (Issac) will not share inheritance with Ishmael. So Abraham a.s. settled his son Ishmael far away from Palestine in the wilderness in Faran.

The Jews should not have come into Arabia. But they were given news through their prophets and came to understand that “That prophet” was going to appear in Arabia. That is why they settled themselves near Madinah so that they could welcome “That Prophet”.

Muhammad is the one whom Allah praises maximum.
Ahmad is the one who praises Allah maximum.

More to follow, Insha Allah…

 

[planten]

To you, that’s what Gabriel said, but to them, Gabriel said a different thing.

Isn’t this the reason why the Bible declares so clearly for us the Anti-Christ in 1 John 2:22 even before the onset of islam? God FORSAW the establishment of the evil cult and cautioned His people way before it even happened.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com

.

Sorry, Mosacked, the anti-christ was already there very soon after Jesus disappeared. He came in the name of Jesus. He was a wolf in the sheep clothing. He derailed the whole teachings of Jesus from the right track. That anti-christ was already there before Muhammad came on the scene. But the anti-christ was not so powerful at that time.

Please think over. Muhammad never came in the name of Jesus. He came in the name of God (Allah). Muhammad never presented himself as a sheep (christian). So you should look for some one who came in the name of Jesus and he presented himself as a sheep i.e. christian.
Muhammad told that the anti-christ (Dajjal) will gather momentum. He (Meaning they) will spread all over the world with their items of trade and their bibles and they will mislead the whole world… They will spread anti-Jesus teachings in the world.

I hope you will recognise the anti-christ now.

 

[Mosacked]

Sorry, Mosacked, the anti-christ was already there very soon after Jesus disappeared. He came in the name of Jesus. He was a wolf in the sheep clothing. He derailed the whole teachings of Jesus from the right track. That anti-christ was already there before Muhammad came on the scene. But the anti-christ was not so powerful at that time.

Please think over. Muhammad never came in the name of Jesus. He came in the name of God (Allah). Muhammad never presented himself as a sheep (christian). So you should look for some one who came in the name of Jesus and he presented himself as a sheep i.e. christian.
Muhammad told that the anti-christ (Dajjal) will gather momentum. He (Meaning they) will spread all over the world with their items of trade and their bibles and they will mislead the whole world… They will spread anti-Jesus teachings in the world.

I hope you will recognise the anti-christ now.

The Bible declares this: 1 John 2:22 Who is the Liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Messiah. Such a man is the Antichrist—he denies the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus). Luke 16:16 The Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist.

There is no greater man known in the history of mankind than Jesus. If this person has impersonated Jesus, you can be sure that he will firstly be found out, secondly his works would be far inferior to Jesus whose works are fully recorded. Finally, the above directs the glory back to Jesus (not to the impersonator whom you claim without reason to have existed) and classifies islam as the anti-christ.

muslimsopenyoureyes.blogspot.com
.