Muslims please... Gabriel

[Vile_Servant]

Again, your understanding is way out of context. When ‘Word of Allaah’ is applied to Jesus the son of Maryam, it does not mean that He is Allaah or that he is eternal. You have also missed the whole point as to why She-Camel of Allaah (Naqatullaah) and House of Allaah(Baitullaah) was brought up. It belongs to Allaah, yes like all things are owned by Him, but specific things are highlighted to show their importance. So whatever the rule applies to then it is applied to all that fall under it, not because it fits your whim.

As Hamba already stated, chapter 112 in Qur’aan is very important to understand.

You are missing the point. No Messenger of Allah has ever been described as a She-Camel. In fact, they are two distinct entities.

Quran 91.13. But the Messenger of Allah said to them: “It is a She-camel of Allah. And (bar her not from) having her drink!”

Jesus on the other hand, is called the Word of Allah, which mean they are the same entity.

Secondly, the Word of Allah comes from WITHIN Allah, while any created thing (e.g. She-Camel, house etc) does not come from within Allah. Nothing is more intimate to Allah than His Word.

The Word of God is eternal, only the human nature taken on by God is not eternal. God’s eternal nature does not change when He appears to man in the form of a temporal nature.
An example of this is when Allah appeared and spoke to Moses, in the form of Fire.

Quran 20.11-14
But when he came to the fire, a voice was heard: "O Moses!
"Verily I am thy Lord! therefore (in My presence) put off thy shoes: thou art in the sacred valley Tuwa.
"I have chosen thee: listen, then, to the inspiration (sent to thee).
"Verily, I am Allah. There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise.

peace.

 

[planten]

You are missing the point. No Messenger of Allah has ever been described as a She-Camel. In fact, they are two distinct entities.

Quran 91.13. But the Messenger of Allah said to them: “It is a She-camel of Allah. And (bar her not from) having her drink!”

Jesus on the other hand, is called the Word of Allah, which mean they are the same entity.

Secondly, the Word of Allah comes from WITHIN Allah, while any created thing (e.g. She-Camel, house etc) does not come from within Allah. Nothing is more intimate to Allah than His Word.

The Word of God is eternal, only the human nature taken on by God is not eternal. God’s eternal nature does not change when He appears to man in the form of a temporal nature.
An example of this is when Allah appeared and spoke to Moses, in the form of Fire.

Quran 20.11-14
But when he came to the fire, a voice was heard: "O Moses!
"Verily I am thy Lord! therefore (in My presence) put off thy shoes: thou art in the sacred valley Tuwa.
"I have chosen thee: listen, then, to the inspiration (sent to thee).
"Verily, I am Allah. There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise.

peace.

Vile Servant, the She Camel was a symbol only from God. She was a sign from Allah. The She Camel of Allah or the Houe of Allah are symbolic. They have to be duly honored and respected. You seem to have some one as son of God. What about that?? If God can have a son then why He cannot have a camel. Everything belongs to Allah. But sometimes Allah gives special status to something. We should not try to make a joke of that.

You talk too much about the Word of God. I tell you that the words of God (Kalimaatullah) are innumerable. They cannot be counted. Jesus is just one of them. It is written in Quran that "If all the seas (oceans) became ink and all the trees of the world became pens and some one wanted to write down all the WORDS of God, the oceans ink will be exhausted (finished) before all the words were written down, even if more oceans were poured in as ink.

So what do you say about the Word of God or Words of God?. Jesus was just one of those many words.
The Jews had a temple. It had its due respect of being something sacred. Perhaps you have some sacred book. Or, you do not care about anything sacred?? Please tell us then we will get on to your few items of religious importance.

 

[spn82756]

Vile Servant, the She Camel was a symbol only from God. She was a sign from Allah. The She Camel of Allah or the Houe of Allah are symbolic. They have to be duly honored and respected. You seem to have some one as son of God. What about that?? If God can have a son then why He cannot have a camel. Everything belongs to Allah. But sometimes Allah gives special status to something. We should not try to make a joke of that.

You talk too much about the Word of God.

That’s because vile servant and all Christians have the Word of God. You don’t.

planten:

So what do you say about the Word of God or Words of God?. Jesus was just one of those many words.

Wrong again…Jesus is THE WORD MADE FLESH. muslims have no such thing. You are all deceived! I’ll say it over and over and over again.

 

[Vile_Servant]

If God can have a son then why He cannot have a camel.

No one is saying that Allah cannot have a camel. I did not say so, neither does the Quran. I merely pointed out that the Messenger of Allah and the She-camel were two distinct entities.

I tell you that the words of God (Kalimaatullah) are innumerable. They cannot be counted. It is written in Quran that "If all the seas (oceans) became ink and all the trees of the world became pens and some one wanted to write down all the WORDS of God, the oceans ink will be exhausted (finished) before all the words were written down, even if more oceans were poured in as ink.

Exactly, the Word of God is infinite. So now that we know that the Word of God is not only eternal, but also infinite, doesn’t that describe the Divine nature of Allah Himself? By describing Jesus as the Word of God, which is eternal and infinite, there is no clearer proof that Jesus is God.

blessings.

 

[planten]

No one is saying that Allah cannot have a camel. I did not say so, neither does the Quran. I merely pointed out that the Messenger of Allah and the She-camel were two distinct entities.

Yes, She Camel was different to the prophet of that Time (Saaleh a.s.). She camel was sent to a misbehaving people as a sign to test their obedience. They failed in that test. So they were destroyed.

A similar case happened with the people of Lot. Two messengers (angels) were sent to those people. Abraham (a.s.) argued with those messengers to save the people of Lot. (That is mentioned in bibleOT). Since the people of LOt disobeyed and transgressed, they were destroyed by some method similar to te one which is happening in some South American cities. It is all punsihment due to the crimes of men on earth.

God does not punish any one until He has sent a warner.

Exactly, the Word of God is infinite. So now that we know that the Word of God is not only eternal, but also infinite, doesn’t that describe the Divine nature of Allah Himself? By describing Jesus as the Word of God, which is eternal and infinite, there is no clearer proof that Jesus is God.

blessings.

Please note that I had written “The words of God are innumearble…”. Not the word of God. It is the words of God (in plural). Jesus is not the only word of God. There was a word of God for Adam too. A word of God for everything that happened.
You have one point that Jesus was the word made flesh. The other words were not made flesh.

I will not discuss that matter because it is quite complicated science.

 

[Vile_Servant]

Please note that I had written “The words of God are innumearble…”. Not the word of God. It is the words of God (in plural).

When we say the Quran is the Word of Allah, we do not mean that there is only one word in the Quran. Likewise, the Word of Allah, or His Word, encompasses all the infinite Words of Allah, and not just a single word.

Jesus is not the only word of God. There was a word of God for Adam too. A word of God for everything that happened.

Not even Adam, who was created by the Word of God, was called the Word of God. Likewise, no one and nothing else in the Quran is ever called the Word of God, except for Jesus. Therefore Jesus actually IS Allah’s Word, eternal and infinite.

You have one point that Jesus was the word made flesh. The other words were not made flesh.

This is exactly what the Bible teaches.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth” (John 1:1,14).

There is no clearer proof of Jesus’ Divinity.

blessings.

 

[planten]

That’s because vile servant and all Christians have the Word of God. You don’t.

Wrong again…Jesus is THE WORD MADE FLESH. muslims have no such thing. You are all deceived! I’ll say it over and over and over again.

Okay, Okay, spn, no need to shout. Thank you for explaining that word made flesh. Quite an unusual one time (singular) experiance. !!!

You had a word made into a man with flesh. Of course there must have been some spirit too. Only flesh did not make a man walk about. Okay, The word was made flesh without bones and without soul.

So what happened when the flesh went away forever. Did he transform back into a word again or he remained in the form of a flesh??. He is now supposed to be sitting there next to God the Father, as a word now or as a word made flesh??

Is it Jesus or is it the son or is it the word or it is the flesh now sitting next to the father??? spn only need reply.

 

[bilalamjad3]

jeasous not god.
he is prophet of god.

 

[seraphime2008]

A similar case happened with the people of Lot. Two messengers (angels) were sent to those people. Abraham (a.s.) argued with those messengers to save the people of Lot. (That is mentioned in bibleOT). Since the people of LOt disobeyed and transgressed, they were destroyed by some method similar to te one which is happening in some South American cities. It is all punsihment due to the crimes of men on earth.

God does not punish any one until He has sent a warner.

.

Oops, are u accusing that those people live in Chile were sinners deserve calamity? Did they not listen to a warner of their sins? Really…? How come that u dare to put urself as their judge?

If u remember the tsunami that hit the northern coastal of Sumatra in Indonesia, which is the part of the most militant fanatical muslim of Indonesia that took more than 200.000 lives. Do u dare to say that they did not hear a warner of their crimes or sins u so eloquently accused ? Seems that being fanatical and militant of Islam didn’t help much either… I’m not accusing them of any crimes of sin, but ur judgmental attitude has to be applied to them, no?

 

[hamba2han]

With all due respect, before this Surah was recorded we had from Blessed John these challenging words:

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. (1Jn 2:23)

We, as Christians, know the Father through His Son whom He gave all things…

The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. (Joh 3:35)

This authority will be exercised on that Dreaded Day of Judgment when we all will stand before Him (the Son)…

For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (Joh 5:22-23)

I understand that you, representing your faith in Islam, must hold to your own beliefs in this but you must recognize that such statements are not compatible with our Revelations. As Christians, those who place their faith in Christ and preservere to the end in that faith, will stand before the Judgment Seat as you will. Truly, we will all answer for our works, be they good or bad. Let us, at least, hope that He Who Is is most Merciful and Compassionate. Amen.

Peace Salaam.

For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. … (John 5:22-23)

It really does not make sense at all that an Omniscient Deity should delegate the power and responsibility of judgment of His creations to someone who is NOT omniscient because it is just not possible to deliver a just judgment about someone’s entire life if that judge does not know everything there is to know about the person being judged.

Or are Christians saying that Jesus (pbuh) was indeed omniscient about everything there is to know, whether good or bad, concerning the lives of the rest of the Lord’s creations?

 

[Vile_Servant]

It is just not possible to deliver a just judgment about someone’s entire life if that judge does not know everything there is to know about the person being judged.

Or are Christians saying that Jesus (pbuh) was indeed omniscient about everything there is to know, whether good or bad, concerning the lives of the rest of the Lord’s creations?

On Judgement Day, Jesus the Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Judge of the living and the dead knows everything there is to know about the person being judged because every deed of every person has been recorded in the Books of Deeds. Both the Bible and Quran agree on this.

(Rev 20:11-12)
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Quran 54.52-53
**All that they do is noted in (their) Books (of Deeds): **
Every matter, small and great, is on record.

Quran 78:29-31
And all things have We preserved on record.
“So taste ye (the fruits of your deeds); for no increase shall We grant you, except in Punishment.”
Verily for the Righteous there will be a fulfilment of (the heart’s) desires;

 

[chrisb]

For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. … (John 5:22-23)

It really does not make sense at all that an Omniscient Deity should delegate the power and responsibility of judgment of His creations to someone who is NOT omniscient because it is just not possible to deliver a just judgment about someone’s entire life if that judge does not know everything there is to know about the person being judged.

Exactly. The Father wouldn’t had over the power and responsibility of judgment of His creation IF that person wasn’t ‘also’ omniscient OR was not the union of Heaven and Earth, God and Man, the Christ.

Or are Christians saying that Jesus (pbuh) was indeed omniscient about everything there is to know, whether good or bad, concerning the lives of the rest of the Lord’s creations?

Within Our Lord’s Divine Nature, He ‘shares’ with each person of the Holy Trinity the very attributes of the Godhead and when ‘we’ enter into Union with God, we too share, as much as we are humanly able, those same Divine Attributes. Amen.

This is the whole purpose of Theosis and the Spiritual Life… Union with God. What Jesus had by nature we gain through adoption. Amen.

 

[spn82756]

For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. … (John 5:22-23)

It really does not make sense at all that an Omniscient Deity should delegate the power and responsibility of judgment of His creations to someone who is NOT omniscient because it is just not possible to deliver a just judgment about someone’s entire life if that judge does not know everything there is to know about the person being judged.

Or are Christians saying that Jesus (pbuh) was indeed omniscient about everything there is to know, whether good or bad, concerning the lives of the rest of the Lord’s creations?

Jesus is all powerful and all God! Your understanding of Jesus is defective as is the understanding of all muslims.

 

[hamba2han]

John 12:47-49
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

Like I have mentioned before in other threads, wherever the Bible contradicts the Qur’an, then you are sure to find verses where the Bible would contradict itself.

The above verses of the Bible show that Jesus (pbuh) himself has said that it is not he who will do the judging but it is God Almighty Himself who will judge His creations on the Day of Judgment.

 

[spn82756]

John 12:47-49
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

Like I have mentioned before in other threads, wherever the Bible contradicts the Qur’an, then you are sure to find verses where the Bible would contradict itself.

The above verses of the Bible show that Jesus (pbuh) himself has said that it is not he who will do the judging but it is God Almighty Himself who will judge His creations on the Day of Judgment.

Hamba…you have your faith and Christians have our faith. Your faith is based on calling people…enemies…dogs…pigs…etc etc. My faith handed down by God teaches love. I’ve gotta tell ya…I have a hard time loving muslims as followers of Satan.

 

[GerrardLerux]

John 12:47-49
47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each man’s work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

Like I have mentioned before in other threads, wherever the Bible contradicts the Qur’an, then you are sure to find verses where the Bible would contradict itself.

The above verses of the Bible show that Jesus (pbuh) himself has said that it is not he who will do the judging but it is God Almighty Himself who will judge His creations on the Day of Judgment.

Actually, the thread here was on the topic of Gabriel. But, if you wnat to shift to contradictions in the Quran, then I would be happy to take you up on the top 100.

 

[hamba2han]

Actually, the thread here was on the topic of Gabriel. But, if you wnat to shift to contradictions in the Quran, then I would be happy to take you up on the top 100.

I was merely responding to a poster who had quoted the following verse of the Bible:

For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. … (John 5:22-23)

My point is that there are to be found other verses of the Bible which actually contradicts this particular verse.

 

[JasJose]

Forgive me, this is not about Gabriel.

As far as I know, in Quran it is told that Jesus is born out of spirit of God. God’s spirit is put into Mary for Jesus to be born. So it is clearly indicating that Jesus’ father is God and mother is Mary. In a much clear way, Jesus is God’s spirit born into flesh. God chose Mary to bear his spirit to give berth to Jesus.

I think that is enough to believe that Jesus is son of God. May be muslims can twist it into another way to picture him as a prophet.

Second, in Quran itself it is told that Jesus will come during the end of the world, not mohammed. So Jesus is given much importance than any other person.

These two things are more than important to believe that Jesus is the messiah and he is given much more importance than other prophets of islam.

 

[spn82756]

I find it humorous that muslims will play word games. Planten and hamba and others have hard time answering DIRECT questions and accusations about their false religion. While some Christians may not appreciated my bluntness… I feel good because muslims have not reply to them.

 

[GerrardLerux]

Forgive me, this is not about Gabriel.

As far as I know, in Quran it is told that Jesus is born out of spirit of God. God’s spirit is put into Mary for Jesus to be born. So it is clearly indicating that Jesus’ father is God and mother is Mary. In a much clear way, Jesus is God’s spirit born into flesh. God chose Mary to bear his spirit to give berth to Jesus.

I think that is enough to believe that Jesus is son of God. May be muslims can twist it into another way to picture him as a prophet