Muslims: Please note the Advocate is the Holy Spirit

[hasantas]

I don’t understand how Muslims can believe He (Jesus) is a prophet.

?

Look at life of Jesus. Did not He live like a human and preach and performed miracles just like prophets?

Jesus must have a soul and that soul was just like others human soul. So if God incarnated(created the body of Jesus) that can be understood. But how would the soul of Jesus and soul of God(to define otherwise we do not know exactly about essence of God) reconcile in same body? Or did God settle in Jesus body with His holy essence(Indeed that is not true for God because God is out and beyond of matter)? If that is so then how can Jesus be a human beside being a God?

So I don’t understand how Christians can believe He (Jesus) is a God!

 

[CompSciGuy]

I cannot interpret that verse. But that does not seem so problematic. Jesus said that I wiil ask from Father(God) to send comforter. So Paraclete may come in that sense. Or Muhammed will come and progress the Jesus’s job and that will be with His name. Muhammed came and did duty of prophethood like Jesus.

Ofcourse there may be an other interpretation.

In the book of Acts, the Holy Spirit descends upon the apostles. This was pretty much explicitly described as the counselor that was foretold by Christ to his apostles.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Jesus is Son of Blessed Mary and that is all.

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and** is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

John 1:1-16**

 

[Mount_Carmel]

Anyone can contribute to the question. It was not just for Muslims to comment. Personally I find it hard to take this debate seriously with Muslims who bring this up and state Biblical NT verses to prove the point…while ignoring the rest of the verse(s). :tsktsk:

Top that off with the recognition that the early Church experienced the influence of the Holy Spirit, while Muslims (followers of Islam) in general may choose to ignore or don’t regard historical Christian eschatology when it’s easily available (even in this day and age) for public consumption and analysis.

MJ

Muslims have a number of claims for Muhammad, including ‘The Final Prophet’, the ‘Rightly Guided One’, the ‘Comforter’, etc. He is considered as the perfect example for humanity to follow, and that he and his followers {equivalent of apostles and disciples] are to be considered the best of the best - the best Muslims of all times.

ps. Which NT verses are they mangling in order to ‘prove’ the point? They mangle so many.

 

[EIF5A]

Look at life of Jesus. Did not He live like a human and preach and performed miracles just like prophets?

Jesus must have a soul and that soul was just like others human soul. So if God incarnated(created the body of Jesus) that can be understood. But how would the soul of Jesus and soul of God(to define otherwise we do not know exactly about essence of God) reconcile in same body? Or did God settle in Jesus body with His holy essence(Indeed that is not true for God because God is out and beyond of matter)? If that is so then how can Jesus be a human beside being a God?

So I don’t understand how Christians can believe He (Jesus) is a God!

We believe with faith, even if things don’t make sense to our minds.

Yes, Jesus DID lives like a human. Jesus is fully God AND fully human. No one knows how that is possible, and Christians/Catholics don’t claim to know or even want to know how.

And Jesus does have a soul, as do all humans.

The Divine Incarnation is not something we can grasp. In fact, the concept of infinity, everlasting, forever, etc is also not something we can grasp, but we ascribe such attributes to God.

Our job is not to understand God’s essence, which is impossible to begin with. We just marvel with awe at His mysteries that He has revealed to us.

Can an infant understand calculus or neurobiology? But God is infinitely higher from us than learned doctors are from newborns.

 

[DCNBILL]

Was Holy Spirit with and inside the apostles?(Notice Holy Spirit is God who had not incarnated like Jesus!).

Yes the Holy Spirit was inside the Apostles, the Holy Spirit is inside all of the baptized Christians, I attest that the Holy Spirit is within me and reveals Himself to me!

And yes the Holy Spirit = God.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. John:16-19

There are metaphorical statements in the verses. For instance “he may abide with you for ever”. Nobody can abide for ever.

If you say Holy Spirit can abide for ever but people cannot abide for ever. The true meaning may be that: he will be abide for ever with his disciplines and nobody else will break in you and Him. No prophet will come after Muhammed.

When Jesus say “you” He does not mean the people around Him in that times. But Jesus mean believers with “you”. Because Jesus say " I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." We know Jesus will come back close to end of the world. But the people who were used to be in that time will not be any more. But the believers always will be.

And also Jesus said “Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.” The world would not see Jesus but “you” will see me. That mean the believers will see me. Islamic scholars explain that everydody will not know Jesus obviously when He come back. Jesus can be seen/known with a certain true faith.

So “the world will not see and know Muhammed but you will know” mean that the believers will know Him and He will dwell with you(believers) and in you. Muhammed was with and in believers. The initially nobody know and accept Him but later believers know and see the evidences of the prophethood on Him.

What is with all this quoting from the NT all of a sudden? I thought that we Christians have corrupted it? Even though there exist examples from before AND after Muhammad’s time, showing that in any meaningful way there has been NO corruption.

If you read ALL the surrounding NT texts regarding the Comforter, you should glean that the reference is to God’s Holy Spirit - the Paraclete - the Spiritual help that came upon them in the form of tongues of fire.

Yes it is true that our bodies cannot abide/live forever in our temporal form, but the Spirit abides in the Soul, not the body. We do believe that after the Final Judgment, that those affirmed to Heaven will also be given an immortal perfected body.

 

[mamlukman]

I see all my friends here as well. So…

Here are several web sites.

answering-islam.org/Silas/comforter.htm
This is by far the best web site I’ve come across on Islamic issues, and it deals with this specific issue (Is Muhammad the Holy Spirit? Did Jesus promise to send Muhammad?) in great detail (more than you want!), with quotations from the Bible, Qur’an, etc. Toward the end of the article he takes on various Muslim apologists by name and refutes their arguments.

Part of the issue is the word “Comforter” instead of “Paraclete.” Ibn Ishaq (early biographer of Muhammad) quotes John and uses the word “Comforter.” This quotation can be traced to a Palestinian Syriac Lectionary that uses “Comforter.” This is a major issue with the Qur’an, since all of its stories from the Bible are taken from various unorthodox texts (usually Gnostic) that were circulating in Arabia and Palestine in the early 7th c.–as you would expect.

youtube.com/watch?v=v2_0Z62-GO8 This is a David Wood video that illustrates (literally–cartoons!) the dilemma of Muslims–on the one hand, they’re told in the Qur’an to turn to the Bible for proof of Islam, but the Bible contradicts Islam on major points (the death of Jesus), so if the Bible is correct, Islam is wrong; if the Bible is corrupted, why did the Qur’an tell Muslims to consult it?

Dr. Labib Mikhail (Copt): thespiritofislam.com/mohammed-jesus/33-is-mohammed-the-comforter-the-holy-spirit.html addresses this question

catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=48952 an article on “Catholic Online” addresses this issue as well.

 

[jakasaki]

To: mamlukman

Off Topic ~

I know you are new to CAF and see that you reference answering islam a bit on here.

Just a little fact you should know being that you are a fan of them.

David Wood was here on CAF last year posting as user Acts17. It was a nice surprise to see him here!

Ok - that’s it!!!

Resume thread title…

 

[adrift]

64 And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee? Luke 22:64

They accused Jesus to be a prophet and Messenger of God. Most of Jews did not believe in Jesus that He was a prophet. Jews did that for many prophets and Jews tortured and killed prophets. A Jew woman try to kill prophet Muhammed too with poison. I do not mean all Jews but there have been always a group which did evil things.

Jesus is Son of Blessed Mary and that is all.

You made the false claim that

Jesus never claim that He is Son of God. .

I provided what Jesus said

Luke 22
70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”

You ignore that your claim was false and make another false statement that He was only the Son of Blessed Mary. He was much more. He is our Savior and our God. Jesus did indeed speak of Muhammad

Matthew 7:15
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
24:5
For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.

 

[hasantas]

In the book of Acts, the Holy Spirit descends upon the apostles. This was pretty much explicitly described as the counselor that was foretold by Christ to his apostles.

Angel Gabriel(Holy Spirit) did such thing during prophet Muhammed. Sometimes Gabriel could spread sky. Some times Gabriel came to Muhammed in shape and form of a human. Gabriel can take form of such thing. And like Gabriel there are many angels.

God may show himself but nobody can take and face that. Prophet Moses could not resist. In the Heavens people will able to see God.

 

[Matthew_Light]

Adrift:

Luke 22
70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”

What translation are you using?

 

[DCNBILL]

The dead one or the live one?

 

[fasolislithuan]

Angel Gabriel(Holy Spirit) did such thing during prophet Muhammed. Sometimes Gabriel could spread sky. Some times Gabriel came to Muhammed in shape and form of a human. Gabriel can take form of such thing. And like Gabriel there are many angels.

God may show himself but nobody can take and face that. Prophet Moses could not resist. In the Heavens people will able to see God.

You continue calling the Holy Spirit as “Angel Gabriel” without any basis. That’s a false claim of Islam. That claim is a pure invention, a deceptively taught without biblical fundament. Is irrelevant what Islam teaches, because the Holy Spirit is known a long time before than Islam appeared and was showed to us by God in the Bible and in the apostolic teaching a long time before that Islam appeared. If you want to know the truth without prejudices you need to forget for a moment Islam teachings and to study with objectivity what the source (Bible) says about the Holy Spirit and about the Angel Gabriel. In any serious study you always have to go to the source and forget your ‘a priori’ judgements.That would be the honest approaching to the subject. If you persis putting the cart before the horse (Islam teaching of Holy Spirit before how the source (Bible) depicts the Holy Spirit you’ve only fooling yourself and the discussion is unfruitful.

If you haven’t read I repeat my last message

The Bible show us:

1st) The Paraclite is the Holy Spirit (not Muhammed): “but the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.” (John 14,26).
2nd) The Holy Spirit cannot be Gabriel: " The angel replied, 'In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the House of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary" …] (Luke 1:26-27) and *“The angel (Gabriel) answered, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will cover you with its shadow” *(Luke 1:35).

The subject is pretty clear.Refute this clauses with the original source if you can.

 

[mamlukman]

I was just looking at two books on Amazon, “Narratives of Tampering in the Earliest Commentaries on the Quran” (expensive, Brill) and “The Gentle Answer to the Muslim Accusation of Biblical Falsification” ($27) both by Gordon T Nickel. He got his PhD at the U. of Calgary under Andrew Rippin, a noted Qur’an scholar.

The first book appears to be his PhD thesis. The second was published last year and from the blurb seems to contain much of the same material–but at a fraction of the cost! The point is that part of his conclusion is that early Muslim commentators were not as concerned with the “corruptions” of the Bible as modern commentators/apologists. This would make sense since modern apologists are reacting to colonialism as much as any religious motive.

 

[dronald]

Angel Gabriel(Holy Spirit) did such thing during prophet Muhammed. Sometimes Gabriel could spread sky. Some times Gabriel came to Muhammed in shape and form of a human. Gabriel can take form of such thing. And like Gabriel there are many angels.

God may show himself but nobody can take and face that. Prophet Moses could not resist. In the Heavens people will able to see God.

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld. "

Response?

 

[MartinJordan]

John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld. "

Response?

Hasantas will also need to step back a bit and answer why Jesus said in John 16:

Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 about sin, because people do not believe in me; 10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known.

Thus Impossible to be any other than the Holy Spirit.

MJ

 

[eddie_too]

I was pretty sure this thread would achieve little when I saw what it was about.

why? because people who do not believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior cannot fully understand sacred scripture.

the same phenomenon that is occurring here occurred when the bahi wanted to provide their understanding of sacred scripture. we learned then that without faith, the sacred scriptures lead more often to confusion than to clarity.

the same occurs whenever non-Christians provide their understanding of the Judeo-Christian bible.

it is to be expected and makes perfect sense that non-Christians would misinterpret Christian writings.

 

[Reuben_J]

I was pretty sure this thread would achieve little when I saw what it was about.

why? because people who do not believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior cannot fully understand sacred scripture.

the same phenomenon that is occurring here occurred when the bahi wanted to provide their understanding of sacred scripture. we learned then that without faith, the sacred scriptures lead more often to confusion than to clarity.

the same occurs whenever non-Christians provide their understanding of the Judeo-Christian bible.

it is to be expected and makes perfect sense that non-Christians would misinterpret Christian writings.

That is what I am thinking too.

Hasantas, as a Muslim, does not believe that God is a Trinity.

To understand his argument, to him God is whom Jesus called the Father. Jesus is a prophet. Holy Spirit is an angel, perhaps good angel, as he believes that angel cannot be bad and does not have free will of his own. It is merely a messenger. Thus when it conveyed Allah’s word to Muhammad, it did so without error.

He believes the Bible is word of God but was corrupted over time. Any part of the Bible that is not consistent with the Quran has been corrupted; except those that agree with the Quran are the ones that are still intact.

Muhammad being the Seal of the prophets, once and for all, corrected the corrupted message and the Quran is the final reference to God’s word.

He had to decipher the Bible, like when Jesus said ‘you’ to the apostles; he did not mean them but future believers who believe in Muhammad. It may sound weird and silly to the Christians, but to him, the Bible could only foretell about Muhammad, he is justified in coming to his conclusion because it could not be otherwise. His conclusion is already decided, he only has to explain the Bible towards that end.

Muslims would read the Bible as they do to the Quran, that is, by each verse which is randomly compiled together under each topic without chronology.

God bless

Reuben

 

[dronald]

That is what I am thinking too.

Hasantas, as a Muslim, does not believe that God is a Trinity.

To understand his argument, to him God is whom Jesus called the Father. Jesus is a prophet. Holy Spirit is an angel, perhaps good angel, as he believes that angel cannot be bad and does not have free will of his own. It is merely a messenger. Thus when it conveyed Allah’s word to Muhammad, it did so without error.

He believes the Bible is word of God but was corrupted over time. Any part of the Bible that is not consistent with the Quran has been corrupted; except those that agree with the Quran are the ones that are still intact.

Muhammad being the Seal of the prophets, once and for all, corrected the corrupted message and the Quran is the final reference to God’s word.

He had to decipher the Bible, like when Jesus said ‘you’ to the apostles; he did not mean them but future believers who believe in Muhammad. It may sound weird and silly to the Christians, but to him, the Bible could only foretell about Muhammad, he is justified in coming to his conclusion because it could not be otherwise. His conclusion is already decided, he only has to explain the Bible towards that end.

Muslims would read the Bible as they do to the Quran, that is, by each verse which is randomly compiled together under each topic without chronology.

God bless

Reuben

Sometimes I find it hard to take a step back and imagine exactly where someone else is coming from.

Thanks Reuben, I can only imagine what this must be like as a Muslim.

I imagine that if I am a Muslim, was raised a Muslim, and only really knew Islam it would be quite surprising to actually hear compelling arguments that say that I may indeed in fact be wrong.

Islam must be true, and Muhammad must be a true prophet, and Muhammad reveres the Bible; so I have to figure out a way to make it work. Therefore any passage that could fit my view is not a stretch anymore, rather it’s logical because Islam must be true.

Jesus said the Holy Spirit will be “in you”? Okay, in one’s hearts.

Jesus said that God will send the Holy Spirit in Jesus’s name? Okay, corruption.

It has to be that way, because Islam has to be true. As frustrating as it is that when read in its entirety, there’s no reason to take Islamic claims regarding Gabriel, Muhammad, whatever seriously. But from a Muslims perspective it must be true, because Islam is true, and Christianity is partially true but corrupt when it contradicts Islam.