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adrift
Guest
New American Standard Bible
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Matthew_Light
Guest
All the older translations say something like this:
“Then said they all: Art thou then the Son of God? Who said: You say that I am.” - Douay–Rheims, Luke 22:70
The NASB translates it like this:
"And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.” "
I’m guessing that the older translation as more literally accurate to the original - perhaps someone familiar with Koine Greek might weigh in?
biblehub.com/luke/22-70.htm
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Matthew_Light
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Just curious about one thing, why can the Holy Spirit not come unless Jesus goes away?
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adrift
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Here are several different translations:
RSV 70: And they all said, “Are you the Son of God, then?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.”
NRSV 70 All of them asked,
Are you, then, the Son of God?' He said to them, You say that I am.’Douay 70 Then said they all: Art thou then the Son of God? Who said: You say that I am.
NAB 70 They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” He replied to them, “You say that I am.”
KJV 70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
WEB 70 They all said, “Are you then the Son of God?” He said to them, “You say it, because I am.”
ESV 70 So they all said, “Are you the Son of God, then?” And he said to them, “You say that I am.”
NASB 70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”
NIV 70 They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” He replied, “You are right in saying I am.”
YOUNG 70 And they all said,
Thou, then, art the Son of God?' and he said unto them, Ye say [it], because I am;’ASV 70 And they all said, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
Darby 70And they all said, Thou then art the Son of God? And he said to them, Ye say that I am.
NKJV 70 Then they all said, “Are You then the Son of God?” So He said to them, “You rightly say that I am.”
It would be nice to have some one who knows the Greek but even so the next verse after it confirms that they understood Jesus to be saying that He is the Son of God
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Mount_Carmel
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Ah, but we don’t claim to be ‘prophets’ of God, and therefore protected with special graces.
Jesus, whom you at least acknowledge as a prophet, was never fooled by Satan, and always spoke with Divine authority of Truth.
‘Allah’ according to your Qur’an(s), was into deception, not only that, but was the best/greatest of deceivers, so much so that Muhammad appeared to get caught up in that web of deception. That ‘Allah’ used Muhammad’s polytheist history to confuse and confound him. Or was it just a case of Muhammad be desperate to gain acceptance and a following, and was himself employing in speaking to the polytheists an early form of taqiyya?
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drac16
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You’re referring to the prophecy in John’s Gospel?
Yeah, a lot of muslims are fond of that one. The Qur’an says that Jesus [peace be upon him] foretold the advent of Muhammad and even gave him a shout out by calling him ‘Ahmed’ (the short form of ‘Muhammad’). I suppose the strongest evidence as to who the Comforter is lies in the Biblical text itself, which says, in the clearest possible way, that it is the Holy Spirit being referred to.
I don’t like the fact that muslims are putting all their eggs into one basket like that. John’s Gospel doesn’t neccessarily have to mention Muhammad in order for Muhammad to have been foretold.
Yeah, a lot of muslims are fond of that one. The Qur’an says that Jesus [peace be upon him] foretold the advent of Muhammad and even gave him a shout out by calling him ‘Ahmed’ (the short form of ‘Muhammad’). I suppose the strongest evidence as to who the Comforter is lies in the Biblical text itself, which says, in the clearest possible way, that it is the Holy Spirit being referred to.
I don’t like the fact that muslims are putting all their eggs into one basket like that. John’s Gospel doesn’t neccessarily have to mention Muhammad in order for Muhammad to have been foretold.
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Reuben_J
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I am answering only because it is being asked, not that I am hopeful that it will be understood.
The Bible is more than just isolated verses understood in isolation; it is to be understood in totality. Thus merely putting a Bible in front of us may not achieved the required understanding.
The short answer for the above question is that what Jesus did and who he was could only be known after his death and resurrection because the message is the person of Jesus.
When Jesus was alive, the disciples depended on him - for teachings and protection. However his human person was limited. At most he could minister and appear to a few people and that too was limited by his duration on earth.
The Holy Spirit is understood as Jesus himself in spirit and thus can teach all people at all times - the person of Jesus being taught by the Holy Spirit after his mission was completed on earth.
As long as Jesus was alive, there is no need for the Holy Spirit, since he was with them. After his death, the Holy Spirit is needed to help, comfort and guide them, as if Jesus was alive - thus Jesus’ promise that he would be with them until the end of time.
Reuben
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EIF5A
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Where else is Muhammed allegedly foretold?
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Matthew_Light
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Reuben:
This line however perhaps you’d care to elaborate on. I don’t think I’m understanding it very well, because it sounds like you are judging me as spiritually blind (perhaps because I am a Baha’i?), and I’m sure that’s not your intention.
I had no trouble understanding the rest of what you said, and I thought it was quite insightful.
This line however perhaps you’d care to elaborate on. I don’t think I’m understanding it very well, because it sounds like you are judging me as spiritually blind (perhaps because I am a Baha’i?), and I’m sure that’s not your intention.
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rweidn
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I just think that the Gospel and Christianity was never properly explained to Muhammad or he never understood it, and there has been a knock on effect through history. Jesus merely a Prophet but had a miraculous birth, makes no sense. Whole problem with the Quran is that it’s a self referencing book, you can’t put it to the test, you believe it because it is told to you. The Bible text is grossly corrupted even though there is actual physical evidence to the contrary. Why do you believe that - because the Quran says so. Didn’t the Lord say ‘love the Lord your God with all your mind’ in other words He wants us to reason and research and question.
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Reuben_J
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Thanks Matthew. My apology for saying that. I guess I am mixing things a bit. My past experience discussing with Muslims (in another forum) often seemed to reach dead end. While I could understand their argument and belief, they did not seem to listen to any explanation of mine. It was always like a one way street and as if they merely made statements of their belief and mine from their perspective. So you can say I did not have good experience in my interaction with them.
You came off more like a Muslim in your posts, I was not too sure. Maybe it was also because I did not go through the thread thoroughly.
God bless.
Reuben
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Matthew_Light
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Thank you for your kind words, Reuben!
I agree, so often it seems that people of different beliefs do talk past one another and not try to listen and understand. I’m sure it was frustrating to you talking to Muslims and feeling like they were not caring to try to understand the Christian perspective.
May the light of Christ always illumine your path!
- Matthew
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hasantas
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Muslims listen to your explanation but they have not to accept as you do not accept thiers. Nobody could change thoughts about self religion easily. Because everybody think his religion is true otherwise he would not believe in it. Here Muslims are more fair because Muslims do not reject Christians totaly but Christians do. Christians think Qur’an is not words of God but Muslims accept Bible to be words of God. But some cicurmstances show that Bible might be changed and Muslims only express that. Bible is not only belong to Christians but Bible is belong to all believers. So Muslims have right to interpret Bible. Muslims at least respect Jesus(source of Bible) as a prophet but Christians say Muhammed was foolled by a devil and that is very injurious. Have you ever seen a Muslim who insult a Christian. Muslims may think that Christians have some wrong thoughts but that is not insulting.
Jesus either may be a prophet or Son of God. Then we must discuss the possibility those two assertions. But you would not be angry when a Muslim say Jesus is not God.
The propblem is very serious. If Jesus or Holy Spirit is God then Muslims are at risk but if they are not God then Christians have responsibility.
There are both statements which give an impression to think that Jesus is a prophet or Son of God. Now I look at Bible and I see that there are much more verses which make me think that Jesus is a prophet. And the differences between texts of Gospels and absence of the original Bible is a problem. Only there are some phrases as “Son”. If we think that “Son” as “prophet” then all statements in Bible reconcile with each other. Because Jesus never imply a statement which show that Jesus has a infinite and divine power, command etc. (Except miracles because many prophets performed miracles) Jesus always say “I will ask from Father”. Father is superior etc. The numbers of these statements are much more such term"Son of God".
So is not a Muslims right to think that his thought is right? If we recognize Qur’an as the original words of God and never changed!
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dronald
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But that doesn’t change that throughout the entire Bible it is claimed that Jesus was crucified and resurrected. This is where Christianity or Islam stands or falls.
If Jesus was crucified then Islam is not true and you must be Christian. If Jesus was not crucified, then we must reject Christianity and our faith is in vain.
But all four of the Gospels; the Gospel you quote says Jesus was crucified! That’s why you’re not allowed to use our Bible for your interpretations; because you ignore this fact.
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Matthew_Light
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Actually, plenty of Muslims have believed and do believe that Jesus was crucified, so Islam certainly doesn’t require believing He wasn’t.
For example, Alawites, Ismailis, many Sufis.
eg:
ismailignosis.com/2013/03/29/the-crucifixion-in-shia-ismaili-islam/
The Holy Spirit and Archangel Gabriel are not the same.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we ourselves or an angel from heaven preaches to you a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let God’s curse be on him.
9 I repeat again what we declared before: anyone who preaches to you a gospel other than the one you were first given is to be under God’s curse.
After Jesus died for us there was no need to send any more prophets especially with conflicting messages.
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dronald
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Sorry Matthew if I wasn’t clear. I meant crucified, killed, died, resurrected, ascended.
Even the Muslim groups who do accept a ‘crucifixion of Jesus’ don’t usually accept that it killed Him.
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Matthew_Light
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No, these do accept that it killed him.
The biggest group who think He was crucified but didn’t die are the Ahmadiyya Muslims (who also believe he traveled to India afterwards).
I posted another thread with a link to a paper and cited some quotations from it. I think the Muslim denial of the crucifixion is one of the biggest problems in relations between the two religions, along with the “bible is corrupted” belief.
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adrift
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To use your words it is injurious to me when you say that Jesus was not God. I do not take it as an insult but it is one. It is as much an insult as saying Muhammad was fooled by the devil.
Not true. Jesus forgave sins which only God can do.(Isaiah 43:25)(Mark 2:5–7), . In John 8:58, He said He existed before Abraham and He did so by using the name of God I Am. He said He was equal with the Father (John 5:17, 18). He also asked the Apostles why after all the time He spent with them they did not recognize Him when they asked Jesus to show them the Father.
It is because you do not understand nor try to understand that Jesus was both God and man. If you understood our teaching, you would not make such statements. Which brings us back to your statement
If you listened you wouldn’t make the argument that Jesus says He will ask His Father means that He is just a prophet. We shake our heads because you are not listening.
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