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arthra
Guest
What do you make of 1 John 2:1 ?So with the exception of Muslims like Hasantas, the rest of us are agreeable and for God’s Truth, the Paracelete IS the Holy Spirit.:harp:
MJ
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MartinJordan
Guest
He’s the first Advocate. Jesus being God, he instructs the Holy Spirit (which originates from the Father).
Infact, John 14: 16 Jesus says: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you **another advocate **to help you and be with you forever-the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Therefore, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ that protects the Church from worldly and evil, and deceptive attacks. Praise God!
MJ
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MartinJordan
Guest
Sorry I failed to respond to this. I don’t even know what to say to you, when it is clear Jesus says “the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost” which you, yourself didn’t skip, this time
, but then somehow you conclude the Holy Spirit cannot be The Comforter. :tsktsk: Unless something makes you not analyze that and just read the other half.Hope you will clarify. I want to know what’s really in your mind and heart.
But let me help you.
Jesus says :he shall teach you all things, means He as in Person (One of the Persons of the Trinity- Father, Son and Holy Spirit) (in this case the Holy Spirit) . Which the Church has taught for 2000 years consistently and given its life (by its community of believers and its leaders) to protect this Truth.
MJ
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fasolislithuan
Guest
Correct. But if you read carefully my messages the claim I was addressing my objections was not that Mohammed is the Holy Spirit but (the Islam’s claim) that the Angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit. I was answering this claim using Luke 1 to refute. Respect the identity Mohammed=Holy Spirit I never said that was Hasantas’ belief but is a consequent derivative to apply another absurd claim (Muhammed is the Paraclete) to John 14,26.
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MartinJordan
Guest
Ok.
Hopefully Hasantas will notice, he accepts one part of John 14:26 (part b) but rejects the first part of Jesus’ words that the Advocate is the Holy Ghost (Spirit), thus I want to understand his thought process.
Ive seen some youtube videos where Muslims use John 14 and the moment the word “He” appears, they are careless to believe it is a future human. Perhaps this is a perennial obsession to refute Christian understanding of scripture, to find solace in some way.
MJ
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jlhargus
Guest
What are some of those things in the quran that Muhammed could not say by himself?
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jlhargus
Guest
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jlhargus
Guest
I don’t know what your point is in posting this. No one is disputing there can be “room” in the concept of the “paraclete” to allow for a wider more inclusive concept. I can properly be called a paraclete when I pray for anyone. Point is the context, in Jn14, Jesus is speaking directly to the apostles, not about Mohammad, promising the apostles the Spirit of Truth (Holy Spirit) who will guide them into all truth.
We see also in verse25 that the Comforter and Holy Spirit are indentified as one and the same person, 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. [26 But [COLOR=“Blue”]the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.]
[Jn14:9 **Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? **he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? **10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 15 If ye love me, **keep my commandments. **16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 **Jesus answered **and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. 25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.]
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hasantas
Guest
All prophets preached same things in main points. Believe in God, scripture, Heavens, Hell and do good deeds, repent for sins etc. So Muhammed did same. Muhammed took from God as Jesus had taken and progressed prophethood.
Muhammed glorified Jesus:
- We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit.
- Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honor); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Does what he wills. Al-Baqarah(2):87, 253
- Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.” 46. “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.”
Al-Imran(3):45-46
…
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dronald
Guest
Are you ignoring every point that’s been made since you last posted in order to say this?
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hasantas
Guest
Holy Spirit(angel Gabriel) came to prophet Muhammed. I guess Jesus might used the terms of Holy Spirit(angel Gabriel) and comforter, servant, paraclete together because those fulfill each other.
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hasantas
Guest
Angel came to Muhammed. So we must consider together.To Christians and even non-Christian like you, it is obvious. Only to Muslims, that they must do some lingual gymnastic to explain that the Comforter has now become Muhammad.
It is hard to take them seriously when they argue like that. In other verse thy say the Holy Spirit is an angel. So how an angel is Muhammad then?
Perhaps Muslims should just stick to the Quran to justify Muhammad to have some sense of credibility.
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hasantas
Guest
God use intercessors and means through His actions. Ofcourse God caused that but angel is merely could be a means.Clear as mud. So you are saying that the Angel who is Gabriel tells Mary that Gabriel, himself, would cause the pregnancy
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hasantas
Guest
If Muslims would speak with words like “insane” then there are much more words to talk about Christians thoughts on Trinity! But we respect Jesus and Bible I will not use such terms.So clear that the Islam’s claim is totally insane. God sent the Angel Gabriel with the object to say to Mary that the Holy Ghost shall come upon her. And Muslims think that Angel Gabriel=Holy Ghost. But…isn’t the Angel Gabriel already present before Mary? Why is he (Angel Gabriel) sent to tell Mary that he’ll come?
So the Angel Gabriel (already present before Mary) is speaking to Mary: “Hey, God’ve sent me to you to tell you that I’ll come upon you, but not now, I’ll come later. Hey, don’t get me wrong, when I tell you that the Holy Spirit will come upon you, actually I’m saying that this third person that I call Holy Spirit, actually, is me”. :doh2:
Absurd.
But we continue with the game. We hypothesize that nonsense claim that the Holy Spirit is the Angel Gabriel according to Islam’s interpretation of Luke 1 is possible.
Now we consider Islam’s claim that the Paraclete is Muhammed. If we read John 14,26, the text says: "but the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you." .
So the Paraclete that accord Islam is Muhammed, is accord the Bible the Holy Spirit.
Therefore we have:
Paraclete=Holy Spirit (according to the Bible John 14,26)
and,
Angel Gabriel= Holy Spirit (according to Islam)
Paraclete=Muhammed (according to Islam)
If Paraclete is Muhammed then Muhammed is the Holy Spirit according to the Bible (because Paraclete=Holy Spirit), and therefore according to Luke 1 Muhammed is sent by God five centuries before his real birth and in the shape of Angel Gabriel to tell Mary that he’ll come later but as Holy Spirit so that she can conceive Jesus. So Muhammed partakes in Jesus incarnation.
uch: Mother of God!
Angel Gabriel could take shape/form of anything. Sometimes Gabriel came to Muhammed in shape of a human sometimes in His actual shape.
Gabriel should comfort Mary just like prophet Muhammed was used to hear such thing from divine before reevlation. But ı cannot know the exact case.
Holy Spirit and Paraclete must be considered together because Holy Spirit(angel) came to Muhammed.
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mamlukman
Guest
I’m beginning to feel some sympathy for hasantas, since he’s the only Muslim responding to all this.
Part of the issue is that Islam has no central authority. Sunnis and Shi’is don’t agree; both think the Baha’is and Ahmadis aren’t Muslims at all. And besides the four orthodox schools of law, there is the Shi’i school of law. You have all sorts of Muslims arguing in their own web sites about all sorts of issues, including important topics like “Is it forbidden to drink water standing up?” A crucial question for our times. And basically anyone can gather some followers and proclaim they are the true Muslims and everyone else is not a Muslim at all (cf. al-Baghdadi, but he’s far from being unique). Even Christian Protestants are more organized; in Islam it’s a real free-for-all.
I would suggest that anyone interested in this whole topic of “Was Muhammad prophesized in the Bible? Do Muslims believe that the references in the Bible to the Holy Spirit really mean Muhammad?” etc. have a look at these Muslim web sites:
answering-christianity.com/predict.htm
Osama Abdallah operates the site. I’m not sure who he is, but he obviously has spent a tremendous amount of time on his web site, and he often collects and posts the opinions of others. I think what he says is probably a fair presentation of Muslim opinion.
**
islam101.com/religions/christianity/mBible.htm**
Zakir Naik. He’s a S. African Indian Muslim, and probably the foremost apologist for Islam today. Disciple of Ahmed Deedat, below.
answering-christianity.com/ahmed_deedat_muh_bible.htm
Ahmed Deedat. Also a S. African Indian Muslim, now deceased. He passed his mantle to Zakir Naik. He’s also got Youtube videos on the subject.
prophetofislam.com/muhammad_in_the_bible.php
Yusuf Estes. He’s a former Evangelical preacher turned Muslim and a major internet apologist. Obviously with his knowledge of Christianity, he can make arguments that Muslims who don’t really know the Bible can’t make as well.
discoveringislam.org/biblical_muhammad.htm
Shabir Ally. PhD in Islamic Studies (sadly, from the same department where I studied at the U. of Toronto…) but he also has a BA in Biblical Studies. He’s an Indian from Guyana who emigrated to Canada in infancy, so he is a native English speaker and is very articulate.
Of course you will find that most of the arguments are common to all Muslims. If you start reading all this, you will see common threads, common logic, and common weaknesses. Some of their arguments are better than others. Since Muslims have not yet accepted that studying Islam and the Qur’an scientifically are acceptable possibilities, a lot of arguments are circular: The Qur’an is the word of God, and if it says xxx or yyy, it must be true. xxx or yyy must be true because it says so in the Qur’an. To step outside faith and look at Islam objectively is still considered blasphemy, which is the big reason it’s almost impossible to argue with Muslims using logic or rational arguments.
Part of the issue is that Islam has no central authority. Sunnis and Shi’is don’t agree; both think the Baha’is and Ahmadis aren’t Muslims at all. And besides the four orthodox schools of law, there is the Shi’i school of law. You have all sorts of Muslims arguing in their own web sites about all sorts of issues, including important topics like “Is it forbidden to drink water standing up?” A crucial question for our times. And basically anyone can gather some followers and proclaim they are the true Muslims and everyone else is not a Muslim at all (cf. al-Baghdadi, but he’s far from being unique). Even Christian Protestants are more organized; in Islam it’s a real free-for-all.
I would suggest that anyone interested in this whole topic of “Was Muhammad prophesized in the Bible? Do Muslims believe that the references in the Bible to the Holy Spirit really mean Muhammad?” etc. have a look at these Muslim web sites:
answering-christianity.com/predict.htm
Osama Abdallah operates the site. I’m not sure who he is, but he obviously has spent a tremendous amount of time on his web site, and he often collects and posts the opinions of others. I think what he says is probably a fair presentation of Muslim opinion.
**
islam101.com/religions/christianity/mBible.htm**
Zakir Naik. He’s a S. African Indian Muslim, and probably the foremost apologist for Islam today. Disciple of Ahmed Deedat, below.
answering-christianity.com/ahmed_deedat_muh_bible.htm
Ahmed Deedat. Also a S. African Indian Muslim, now deceased. He passed his mantle to Zakir Naik. He’s also got Youtube videos on the subject.
prophetofislam.com/muhammad_in_the_bible.php
Yusuf Estes. He’s a former Evangelical preacher turned Muslim and a major internet apologist. Obviously with his knowledge of Christianity, he can make arguments that Muslims who don’t really know the Bible can’t make as well.
discoveringislam.org/biblical_muhammad.htm
Shabir Ally. PhD in Islamic Studies (sadly, from the same department where I studied at the U. of Toronto…) but he also has a BA in Biblical Studies. He’s an Indian from Guyana who emigrated to Canada in infancy, so he is a native English speaker and is very articulate.
Of course you will find that most of the arguments are common to all Muslims. If you start reading all this, you will see common threads, common logic, and common weaknesses. Some of their arguments are better than others. Since Muslims have not yet accepted that studying Islam and the Qur’an scientifically are acceptable possibilities, a lot of arguments are circular: The Qur’an is the word of God, and if it says xxx or yyy, it must be true. xxx or yyy must be true because it says so in the Qur’an. To step outside faith and look at Islam objectively is still considered blasphemy, which is the big reason it’s almost impossible to argue with Muslims using logic or rational arguments.
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arthra
Guest
I think there are heavy doctrinal issues for Christians that come into play here…that I see and the need to explain the “trinity” concept…for Muslims of course this isn’t such an issue.
In Baha’i Faith we use the term “Holy Spirit” and can also accept the understanding of Muslims that Angel Gabriel could be a symbol of the Holy Spirit.
The descent of the dove after the baptism of Jesus is another symbol of the Holy Spirit
.
In Baha’i Faith we use the term “Holy Spirit” and can also accept the understanding of Muslims that Angel Gabriel could be a symbol of the Holy Spirit.
The descent of the dove after the baptism of Jesus is another symbol of the Holy Spirit
.
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Zachary
Guest
Jesus=source of Bible? Who’s making such a claim?
Don’t Islamic scholars claim that Muhammed was fooled? Christian just repeat this. It’s not injurious. It’s like you telling us you were defrauded and get upset that you’re told you were tricked into accepting the phony check.
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hasantas
Guest
How much could the Trinity be argument using logic?I’m beginning to feel some sympathy for hasantas, since he’s the only Muslim responding to all this.
Part of the issue is that Islam has no central authority. Sunnis and Shi’is don’t agree; both think the Baha’is and Ahmadis aren’t Muslims at all. And besides the four orthodox schools of law, there is the Shi’i school of law. You have all sorts of Muslims arguing in their own web sites about all sorts of issues, including important topics like “Is it forbidden to drink water standing up?” A crucial question for our times. And basically anyone can gather some followers and proclaim they are the true Muslims and everyone else is not a Muslim at all (cf. al-Baghdadi, but he’s far from being unique). Even Christian Protestants are more organized; in Islam it’s a real free-for-all.
I would suggest that anyone interested in this whole topic of “Was Muhammad prophesized in the Bible? Do Muslims believe that the references in the Bible to the Holy Spirit really mean Muhammad?” etc. have a look at these Muslim web sites:
answering-christianity.com/predict.htm
Osama Abdallah operates the site. I’m not sure who he is, but he obviously has spent a tremendous amount of time on his web site, and he often collects and posts the opinions of others. I think what he says is probably a fair presentation of Muslim opinion.
**
islam101.com/religions/christianity/mBible.htm**
Zakir Naik. He’s a S. African Indian Muslim, and probably the foremost apologist for Islam today. Disciple of Ahmed Deedat, below.
answering-christianity.com/ahmed_deedat_muh_bible.htm
Ahmed Deedat. Also a S. African Indian Muslim, now deceased. He passed his mantle to Zakir Naik. He’s also got Youtube videos on the subject.
prophetofislam.com/muhammad_in_the_bible.php
Yusuf Estes. He’s a former Evangelical preacher turned Muslim and a major internet apologist. Obviously with his knowledge of Christianity, he can make arguments that Muslims who don’t really know the Bible can’t make as well.
discoveringislam.org/biblical_muhammad.htm
Shabir Ally. PhD in Islamic Studies (sadly, from the same department where I studied at the U. of Toronto…) but he also has a BA in Biblical Studies. He’s an Indian from Guyana who emigrated to Canada in infancy, so he is a native English speaker and is very articulate.
Of course you will find that most of the arguments are common to all Muslims. If you start reading all this, you will see common threads, common logic, and common weaknesses. Some of their arguments are better than others. Since Muslims have not yet accepted that studying Islam and the Qur’an scientifically are acceptable possibilities, a lot of arguments are circular: The Qur’an is the word of God, and if it says xxx or yyy, it must be true. xxx or yyy must be true because it says so in the Qur’an. To step outside faith and look at Islam objectively is still considered blasphemy, which is the big reason it’s almost impossible to argue with Muslims using logic or rational arguments.
Which principles of Islam are irrational and fantastic as Trinity?
All issues of Islam are positive and they can be argued in logic.
M
Matthew_Light
Guest
Baha’is agree with that about our religion: Baha’is are not Muslims, any more than Muslims are Christians or Christians are Jews.
M
Matthew_Light
Guest
I agree, it is unhelpful to use such language here.
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