Muslims: Please note the Advocate is the Holy Spirit

  • Thread starter Thread starter MartinJordan
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
But Muslims are championing Jesus as Prophet, yet they skip some of his words that are in the NT. Which they say they believe. Isn’t that odd?

Even a Jewish contributor here can follow what is being asked . And the reply (which was for John 14 : 26) was a guess. 🤷

So that’s why Im asking another thread should start when you talk about the OT, as Melzterboy has implied should be interesting.

MJ
That should be John 15:26. :o

MJ
 
The Paraclete - The Spirit of Truth

During the General Audience on 17 May 1989, on the Wednesday following the Solemnity of Pentecost, the Holy Father (John Paul II) spoke about the Coming of the Holy Spirit.
  1. Several times we have quoted Jesus’ Words in His Farewell Discourse to the Apostles in the Upper Room when **He Promised the Coming of the Holy Spirit as a New and Definitive Defender and Counselor: **"I will Pray to the Father and He will give you another Counselor, to be with you Forever, … the Spirit of Truth, Whom the World cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him" (John 14:16-17).
That “Farewell Discourse”, situated in the Solemn Account of the Last Supper (cf. John 13:2), is a Source of Primary Importance for **Pneumatology, the Theological Discipline concerning the Holy Spirit. **

**Jesus speaks of Him as the Paraclete Who “Proceeds” from the Father, and Whom the Father “will send” to the Apostles and to the Church “in the Name of the Son” when the Son Himself “will go away”, a Departure which will be Effected by the Sacrifice of the Cross.

We must consider the fact that Jesus calls the Paraclete the “Spirit of Truth”. At other times also He called Him this (cf. John 15:26; 16:13).**
  1. We recall that Jesus in that same “Farewell Discourse”, in reply to a Question from the Apostle Thomas about His Identity, says of Himself: “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life” (John 14:6).
From this Twofold (2) Reference to the Truth, **made by Jesus to Define both Himself and the Holy Spirit, one deduces that if He calls the Paraclete the “Spirit of Truth”, this means that the Holy Spirit is He Who, after Christ’s Departure, will Preserve among the Disciples the Truth which He had Announced and Revealed and, indeed, which He Himself is. **

**The Paraclete, in fact, is the Truth, as Christ is the Truth. John says so in his First Letter: “The Spirit is the Witness, because the Spirit is the Truth” (1John 5:7). In that same Letter, John also writes: “We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to Us, and he who is not of God does not listen to Us. **
**
By this we know the Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error” **(1John 4:6). **The Son’s Mission and that of the Holy Spirit Meet, are Connected and are Mutually Completed in the Affirmation of the Truth and in Victory over Error. **

Their Fields of Action are the Human Spirit and the History of the World. The Distinction between Truth and Error is the Initial Stage of that Work.

MJ

Note: Bolded mine.
 
Muhammad was with and inside the Apostles?
Great question, it’s very easy to point out in response to the muslim argument, however an impossible one for the muslim to answer, as this does not refer to a man at all, but rather a spirit, who is the Holy Spirit.

It would be interesting to here an answer though to further this discussion.
 
Great question, it’s very easy to point out in response to the muslim argument, however an impossible one for the muslim to answer, as this does not refer to a man at all, but rather a spirit, who is the Holy Spirit.

It would be interesting to here an answer though to further this discussion.
Also that the Father will send the Spirit “In my [Jesus] name” has gone unanswered.
 
John 16: 12-15-

12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

What did Jesus mean here (I’ve put in bold) Earlier you stopped at verse 13. I’m awaiting your comments.

MJ
“All that belongs to the Father is mine.” The apparent meaning imply that as if Jesus possess what Father own. But in other verse we can see that cannot be possible : 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

Then we can interpret in that way: What God revealed to prophets is what God revealed to Jesus. And God will reveal from that through holy spirit to the comforter prophet who is to come. In Qur’an many times God mention that God had informed same things in previous scriptures. The comforter is to come will approve that Jesus was from God. Already Jesus wanted from people to believe that:

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. John 16:28

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. John 16:30

Prophet Muhammed took from God through holy spirit and glorified Jesus and made us to know that Jesus was from God.
 
“All that belongs to the Father is mine.” The apparent meaning imply that as if Jesus possess what Father own. But in other verse we can see that cannot be possible : 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

Then we can interpret in that way: What God revealed to prophets is what God revealed to Jesus. And God will reveal from that through holy spirit to the comforter prophet who is to come. In Qur’an many times God mention that God had informed same things in previous scriptures. The comforter is to come will approve that Jesus was from God. Already Jesus wanted from people to believe that:

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. John 16:28

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. John 16:30

Prophet Muhammed took from God through holy spirit and glorified Jesus and made us to know that Jesus was from God.
How about this one!

19 Then Pilate took Jesus and scourged him. 2 And the soldiers plaited a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and arrayed him in a purple robe; 3 they came up to him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!” and struck him with their hands. 4 Pilate went out again, and said to them, “See, I am bringing him out to you, that you may know that I find no crime in him.” 5 So Jesus came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe. Pilate said to them, “Behold the man!” 6 When the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, “Crucify him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Take him yourselves and crucify him, for I find no crime in him.” 7 The Jews answered him, “We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he has made himself the Son of God.” 8 When Pilate heard these words, he was the more afraid; 9 he entered the praetorium again and said to Jesus, “Where are you from?” But Jesus gave no answer. 10 Pilate therefore said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you, and power to crucify you?” 11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.”

12 Upon this Pilate sought to release him, but the Jews cried out, “If you release this man, you are not Caesar’s friend; every one who makes himself a king sets himself against Caesar.” 13 When Pilate heard these words, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judgment seat at a place called The Pavement, and in Hebrew, Gab′batha. 14 Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about the sixth hour. He said to the Jews, “Behold your King!” 15 They cried out, “Away with him, away with him, crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your King?” The chief priests answered, “We have no king but Caesar.” 16 Then he handed him over to them to be crucified.

John 19:
17 So they took Jesus, and he went out, bearing his own cross, to the place called the place of a skull, which is called in Hebrew Gol′gotha. 18 There they crucified him, and with him two others, one on either side, and Jesus between them. 19 Pilate also wrote a title and put it on the cross; it read, “Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews.” 20 Many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, in Latin, and in Greek. 21 The chief priests of the Jews then said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘This man said, I am King of the Jews.’” 22 Pilate answered, “What I have written I have written.”

23 When the soldiers had crucified Jesus they took his garments and made four parts, one for each soldier; also his tunic. But the tunic was without seam, woven from top to bottom; 24 so they said to one another, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it shall be.” This was to fulfil the scripture,

“They parted my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.”
25 So the soldiers did this. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Mag′dalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.

28 After this Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfil the scripture), “I thirst.” 29 A bowl full of vinegar stood there; so they put a sponge full of the vinegar on hyssop and held it to his mouth. 30 When Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished”; and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
 
Jesus’ Side Is Pierced
31 Since it was the day of Preparation, in order to prevent the bodies from remaining on the cross on the sabbath (for that sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first, and of the other who had been crucified with him; 33 but when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. 35 He who saw it has borne witness—his testimony is true, and he knows that he tells the truth—that you also may believe. 36 For these things took place that the scripture might be fulfilled, “Not a bone of him shall be broken.” 37 And again another scripture says, “They shall look on him whom they have pierced.”

The Burial of Jesus
38 After this Joseph of Arimathe′a, who was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly, for fear of the Jews, asked Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus, and Pilate gave him leave. So he came and took away his body. 39 Nicode′mus also, who had at first come to him by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds’ weight. 40 They took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as is the burial custom of the Jews. 41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb where no one had ever been laid. 42 So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, as the tomb was close at hand, they laid Jesus there.
 
“All that belongs to the Father is mine.” The apparent meaning imply that as if Jesus possess what Father own. But in other verse we can see that cannot be possible : 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

Then we can interpret in that way: What God revealed to prophets is what God revealed to Jesus. And God will reveal from that through holy spirit to the comforter prophet who is to come. In Qur’an many times God mention that God had informed same things in previous scriptures. The comforter is to come will approve that Jesus was from God. Already Jesus wanted from people to believe that:

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. John 16:28

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. John 16:30

Prophet Muhammed took from God through holy spirit and glorified Jesus and made us to know that Jesus was from God.
Thanks for answering finally. But it you’re still not getting the context of what Jesus did and said. For example Jesus washed his disciples feet see John 13. You will them notice how Jesus humbles himself to teach loving one another. Also that Jesus is subservient to his Father in his Humanity but not in Essence. There’s more and I’ll be back. MJ
 
“All that belongs to the Father is mine.” The apparent meaning imply that as if Jesus possess what Father own. But in other verse we can see that cannot be possible : 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

Then we can interpret in that way: What God revealed to prophets is what God revealed to Jesus. And God will reveal from that through holy spirit to the comforter prophet who is to come. In Qur’an many times God mention that God had informed same things in previous scriptures. The comforter is to come will approve that Jesus was from God. Already Jesus wanted from people to believe that:

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. John 16:28

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. John 16:30

Prophet Muhammed took from God through holy spirit and glorified Jesus and made us to know that Jesus was from God.
I think you must be more focused by not skipping chapters. From 14 you jump to 16 without allowing Jesus words be in order and how he progressively answers his disciples during the last supper discourse. Not only that but there is more said after 16:30. I’m disappointed but still I’ll be sanctified to go through with you step by step in proper sequence which would include chapters 13 to 17 and beyond if required. I’m bit busy so just wanted to reply this much for now. MJ
 
“Do you now believe?” Jesus replied. 32 “A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

I wanted to insert above after verse 16:30 were Hasantas stopped but my 20 mins were up. Anyway Jesus said He had overcome the world. Nobody else but Him. That’s why the Holy Spirit (Advocate/Paraclete) will guide the Church when he goes to the Father.

MJ
 
The short answer for the above question is that what Jesus did and who he was could only be known after his death and resurrection because the message is the person of Jesus.
Wrong.

"And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:17
However his human person was limited. At most he could minister and appear to a few people and that too was limited by his duration on earth.
Wrong.

Jesus Christ is God and Man. He could have come down from the cross but He chose not to.
The Holy Spirit is understood as Jesus himself in spirit and thus can teach all people at all times - the person of Jesus being taught by the Holy Spirit after his mission was completed on earth.
Totally wrong.

The Holy Spirit is a distinct person from the Son and the Father. Three persons one being.
As long as Jesus was alive, there is no need for the Holy Spirit, since he was with them.
But, you said that He was limited?
 
“All that belongs to the Father is mine.” The apparent meaning imply that as if Jesus possess what Father own. But in other verse we can see that cannot be possible : 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

Then we can interpret in that way: What God revealed to prophets is what God revealed to Jesus. And God will reveal from that through holy spirit to the comforter prophet who is to come. In Qur’an many times God mention that God had informed same things in previous scriptures. The comforter is to come will approve that Jesus was from God. Already Jesus wanted from people to believe that:

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. John 16:28

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. John 16:30

Prophet Muhammed took from God through holy spirit and glorified Jesus and made us to know that Jesus was from God.
Thank you hasantas for participating in this thread and sharing with us your beliefs and faith. It has been a learning experience for me as I did not know that Muslims believe that the angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit. I hope that by participating in Catholic forums you will also come to a better understanding of our faith.

Respectfully,

Abba

P.s.

You are quoting the New Testament, does the NT hold any value in Islam? Note in your quote above that Jesus said"I came forth from the Father…" This is the reason we recognize He is divine.
 
It is hard to take Islam seriously anymore with what I see daily in the news and the persecution of Christians.
I don’t know where you get your news but for the past 50 some odd years it is the Muslims who have been persecuted. Millions have died, their land has been contaminated with depleted uranium, hundreds of thousands of children have died most horrible deaths, their land and wealth have been stolen etc., etc., etc.,

The front that is behind the persecution of Christians is lead by so-called ‘christians’ and ‘Jews’, like ISIS = Israel Secret Intelligence Service. All to make way for Eretz Israel.

Your comment is just more anti-Muslim propaganda as they have always been.
 
General warning:
Please make sure we are observing the rules for inter-religious dialogue.
 
John 14:5-7 “Lord”, said Thomas, “we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus told him: “I am the the way, and the truth, and the life: no one comes to the Father but through me”.

You have to go through Jesus to get to the Father; there is no other way.
 
Clear as mud. So you are saying that the Angel who is Gabriel tells Mary that Gabriel, himself, would cause the pregnancy :rolleyes:
Not just that, it has been consistently claimed that the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel. It is also claimed that the Advocate (ie., the Holy Spirit) is Mohammad. So, Mohammad made Mary pregnant? 🤷
  • I am still waiting for the reference that proves that the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel.
  • Quran makes it very clear that Jesus’ birth was supernatural and that Mary to the angel that she had not known man.
Anyway, I am glad to have hasantas here. I would presume you are sincere about wanting to know about what Christians think, and not here to attempt to convert Christians :). Sorry, you may have picked up from my other posts that I am sensitive about it.

For many Muslims to understand what Christians think is difficult (ditto for Christians trying to understand what Muslims think) because of a fundamental difference in the starting point. Muslims start from the point that the Quran is right because God himself wrote it. As a result, Muslims would read the Bible from that starting point and any verse in the Bible which contradicts is deemed wrong and ignored (similar to the way Muslims classify hadiths into weak & strong). I think if you were to read the Bible, you have to read it as a story of God’s reaching out to His people and how his people in their weakness attempt to respond. It is very different from the Quran - which is a series of exhortations from God, many of which are not complete stories but presupposes knowledge of Biblical and Toraic stories (which makes it difficult for many Christians schooled in Christian thinking to read). So, my advice is not to read the Bible like you do the Quran.
 
Not just that, it has been consistently claimed that the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel. It is also claimed that the Advocate (ie., the Holy Spirit) is Mohammad. So, Mohammad made Mary pregnant? 🤷
Advocate and the Holy Spirit are different entities to Muslims (here on CAF atleast) as far as I am aware.
  • I am still waiting for the reference that proves that the Holy Spirit is the angel Gabriel.
  • Quran makes it very clear that Jesus’ birth was supernatural and that Mary to the angel that she had not known man.
Are you saying in the Islamic scriptures there is no reference of the Holy Spirit as the angel Gabriel?
Anyway, I am glad to have hasantas here. I would presume you are sincere about wanting to know about what Christians think, and not here to attempt to convert Christians :). Sorry, you may have picked up from my other posts that I am sensitive about it.
I am too glad to have Hasantas here. I just wished he could answer my posts 197 and 198 though. 🙂
For many Muslims to understand what Christians think is difficult (ditto for Christians trying to understand what Muslims think) because of a fundamental difference in the starting point. Muslims start from the point that the Quran is right because God himself wrote it. As a result, Muslims would read the Bible from that starting point and any verse in the Bible which contradicts is deemed wrong and ignored (similar to the way Muslims classify hadiths into weak & strong). I think if you were to read the Bible, you have to read it as a story of God’s reaching out to His people and how his people in their weakness attempt to respond. It is very different from the Quran - which is a series of exhortations from God, many of which are not complete stories but presupposes knowledge of Biblical and Toraic stories (which makes it difficult for many Christians schooled in Christian thinking to read). So, my advice is not to read the Bible like you do the Quran.
I don’t seem to see Muslims actually reading the Bible context. Like a broken recorded, I have stated that they skip verses and chapters, and in particular the events of the Last Supper discourse (chapters 14-16). The order gets jumbled up. 🤷

For example: Hasantas said : “*All that belongs to the Father is mine.” The apparent meaning imply that as if Jesus possess what Father own. But in other verse we can see that cannot be possible : 28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)
*

In other verses according to Hasantas Jesus says “The father is greater than I”, above, but Hasantas mentions verse 16 first. So he’s actually confusing to order of Jesus’ words. Why?

So Hasantas continues, “Then we can interpret in that way: What God revealed to prophets is what God revealed to Jesus. And God will reveal from that through holy spirit to the comforter prophet who is to come. In Qur’an many times God mention that God had informed same things in previous scriptures. The comforter is to come will approve that Jesus was from God. Already Jesus wanted from people to believe that:

He thus goes off into a tangent with his own reading of things. And if that is the way Muslims work out passages, then I would love to correct them in kindness, to follow the scriptures in order. Or it could be taken as bearing false witness to Sacred Scripture. :eek:

Later he comes with :

*28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. John 16:28

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. John 16:30

Prophet Muhammed took from God through holy spirit and glorified Jesus and made us to know that Jesus was from God. *

But Hasantas has skipped verse 29, 31 and 33. In particular the last two .

31 A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. **Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
**
33 “I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.”

Now if Jesus has overcomed the world, then it is His commandments we must follow. So we can look back at Chapter 14 ( for example 14:18 to 26 and see Jesus saying as he has been promising and that he will send the Spirit to be with his disciples, which can only be the Advocate.

The Advocate and the Holy Spirit are one and the same and NOT a human being and angel Gabriel two different entities. I think Intellectually it can be frustrating to be confused like his. ( I mean this in the most humble way and not trying to insult any Muslim).:o

Thus if Muslims are doing this I hope they would re-evaluate what they have heard or learned and see what the Bible is actually explaining (which was put together by the Church) through Jesus’ followers’ experience with what Jesus did and said.

Can we have an Amen? :highprayer:

MJ
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top