Muslims: Please note the Advocate is the Holy Spirit

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Advocate and the Holy Spirit are different entities to Muslims (here on CAF atleast) as far as I am aware.
Unless I have understood him wrongly, that was what was claimed by hasantas. I probably did or he may have worded his point badly as I agree with you that this is not orthodox Muslim teaching.

The Advocate is not a element of faith for Muslims while the Holy Spirit? I could be mischievous here and say that the Holy Spirit (since there is no direct equivalent in Islam, I can afford to be a little liberal with the interpretation here) is Jesus himself, aka Roh Allah (Spirit of God) in the Quran.
Are you saying in the Islamic scriptures there is no reference of the Holy Spirit as the angel Gabriel?
No. I believe hasantas was asked a while back for references to back up his assertion that the Holy Spirit is the Angel Gabriel. I did not see any reply to that post.
I am too glad to have Hasantas here. I just wished he could answer my posts 197 and 198 though. 🙂
Can we have an Amen? :highprayer:
AMEN
 
I don’t seem to see Muslims actually reading the Bible context. Like a broken recorded, I have stated that they skip verses and chapters, and in particular the events of the Last Supper discourse (chapters 14-16). The order gets jumbled up. 🤷

MJ
I don’t think Muslim or Christians are really concerned about the context, they are more concerned about interpreting what they read in accordance with the dogma they follow.

Because when context is in favor of their dogma, they argue, context, when the context is not in favor with their dogma, they argue, that is not how our church or scholars or priest or whatever understand it.

To the point of this thread. It is possible to arrive at both understanding (the Advocate being the Holy Spirit as well as the Advocate being Muhammad. ) What interpretation you accept will depend on your worldview.

I honestly see both points of view.
 
I don’t think Muslim or Christians are really concerned about the context, they are more concerned about interpreting what they read in accordance with the dogma they follow.

Because when context is in favor of their dogma, they argue, context, when the context is not in favor with their dogma, they argue, that is not how our church or scholars or priest or whatever understand it.

To the point of this thread. It is possible to arrive at both understanding (the Advocate being the Holy Spirit as well as the Advocate being Muhammad. ) What interpretation you accept will depend on your worldview.

I honestly see both points of view.
Until Muslims dont skip Bible verses and chapters and then come up with their point of view then you may have a point but it’s not the case. Besides the Church professes One God long before Islam did through experience with Jesus himself, suffering and defending the Faith and by putting all the books / scripture together and Tradition.

MJ
 
I don’t think Muslim or Christians are really concerned about the context, they are more concerned about interpreting what they read in accordance with the dogma they follow.

Because when context is in favor of their dogma, they argue, context, when the context is not in favor with their dogma, they argue, that is not how our church or scholars or priest or whatever understand it.

To the point of this thread. It is possible to arrive at both understanding (the Advocate being the Holy Spirit as well as the Advocate being Muhammad. ) What interpretation you accept will depend on your worldview.

I honestly see both points of view.
Sorry there’s where we differ. We Christians are concerned over the context because we do not start with dogma but with the facts (and therefore context) on which the dogma is based. Christianity and Islam have different starting points.

At the risk of oversimplificaiton, I can reduce the difference as such:

Christianity
We believe that the Bible is written by men, under the guidance of God but written by men nevertheless. Therefore there is a context to be understood. Biblical studies involves the understanding of the audience, the intention of the writer, the historical context of the times. The Bible exists within human history and should be understood within such context. (Bible reflection/sharing is a different discipline altogether and understanding of the context may not be necessary to obtain the very personalised message God has for us)

Based on the understanding of what happened, why the particular verse of the scriptures was written, we then work out the dogma that God is revealing to us. Of course how we understand & interpret the facts & the context could differ with our values (personal & communal) and experiences. But understanding with the guidance of the Holy Spirit brings the Church to the dogmas that she now teaches.

Our starting point is therefore God’s intervention in human history and understanding (with faith and grace) how he so intervened and, thus, revealed himself, we develop our dogmas. Our dogmas did not fall from the sky but came about through careful consideration, understanding & logical theology.

Islam
Muslims believe that the Quran is written by the hand of God himself. It is therefore written outside of human history and therefore do not have a context like the Bible has. A study of the Quran is a study of 7th century Arabic of the Qurashi dialect (since God presumably was not an Englishman but spoke in 7th century Qurashi Arab). There is no study of the mind of the author or the background of the times, etc because if God wrote it himself, there cannot be a context in human history.

As such, one may say that Muslim dogmas fall from the sky in the form of a book written by God himself. The Muslim view of scriptures is a very literalist view (unlike the mainstream Christian view which is very contextual), which is why dogma for Muslims come before context.

The starting point of the Muslim is that the Quran is right (because it is written by God himself) and so all dogmas contained in the Quran is right if it says so. Anything that contradict the Quran is wrong (including the certain parts of the Bible and weak hadiths, for instance). Facts and history are often written in a way to support dogmas as revealed in the Quran. (I will leave it at more charitable language)
 
Sorry there’s where we differ. We Christians are concerned over the context because we do not start with dogma but with the facts (and therefore context) on which the dogma is based. Christianity and Islam have different starting points.

At the risk of oversimplificaiton, I can reduce the difference as such:

Christianity
We believe that the Bible is written by men, under the guidance of God but written by men nevertheless. Therefore there is a context to be understood. Biblical studies involves the understanding of the audience, the intention of the writer, the historical context of the times. The Bible exists within human history and should be understood within such context. (Bible reflection/sharing is a different discipline altogether and understanding of the context may not be necessary to obtain the very personalised message God has for us)

Based on the understanding of what happened, why the particular verse of the scriptures was written, we then work out the dogma that God is revealing to us. Of course how we understand & interpret the facts & the context could differ with our values (personal & communal) and experiences. But understanding with the guidance of the Holy Spirit brings the Church to the dogmas that she now teaches.

Our starting point is therefore God’s intervention in human history and understanding (with faith and grace) how he so intervened and, thus, revealed himself, we develop our dogmas. Our dogmas did not fall from the sky but came about through careful consideration, understanding & logical theology.

Islam
Muslims believe that the Quran is written by the hand of God himself. It is therefore written outside of human history and therefore do not have a context like the Bible has. A study of the Quran is a study of 7th century Arabic of the Qurashi dialect (since God presumably was not an Englishman but spoke in 7th century Qurashi Arab). There is no study of the mind of the author or the background of the times, etc because if God wrote it himself, there cannot be a context in human history.

As such, one may say that Muslim dogmas fall from the sky in the form of a book written by God himself. The Muslim view of scriptures is a very literalist view (unlike the mainstream Christian view which is very contextual), which is why dogma for Muslims come before context.

The starting point of the Muslim is that the Quran is right (because it is written by God himself) and so all dogmas contained in the Quran is right if it says so. Anything that contradict the Quran is wrong (including the certain parts of the Bible and weak hadiths, for instance). Facts and history are often written in a way to support dogmas as revealed in the Quran. (I will leave it at more charitable language)
The fact that different denominations, sects, schools of thoughts exist in both religion is a testament to the fact both scriptures of both religions can be understood in different ways. Thus what one sect will considers a group of verses to be that context and another group will disagree. And whatever verses contradict that so-called context, it is explained away by the other group.

I have a deep respect for Traditional Sunni Islam for the fact that they have produced many saints. They have a valid and sound spiritual path, a means for common people to attain that spiritual connection to God. For me, that and that alone is a proof that it is a religion that is connected to God. But I do not believe in the physical resurrection of last day, I do not believe in the devil etc… which exist in Islamic belief.

I have a deep respect for both Catholics and Orthodox Christianity for the fact they have produced many saints. They have a valid and sound spiritual path, a means for common people to attain that spiritual connection to God.** For Me, That and that alone is a proof that it is a religion that is connected to God. ** But I do not believe Jesus is God. If you read the four Gospels of Jesus without the Dogma of the Church, you will not walk away believing Jesus is God. Keep in mind. Because I was so impressed with the spiritual tradition of Orthodox Christianity, I wanted to become an Orthodox Christian. And I tried to believe Jesus was God. I spent a whole year as a catechumen of the Orthodox Church. I even brought this problem to the priest, that I had with Jesus being God, that I do not see Jesus being God when I read the Gospel. So he told me. That I should fast, and reflect on the statements of Jesus and try to connect with Jesus. In edition to that, I bought several books on why Jesus is God, by different Christians. Reading commentary on the Gospels. So no, I don’t believe Christians follow the context of everything in the bible, only those things in agreement with their dogma.

But **I believe Orthodox Christians and Catholics are connected to God. ** I believe most religions are connected to God, those religions that produce saints, sound and valid spiritual people. I don’t have a problem with you believing Jesus is God, I am ok with that. If that makes you attain spirituality, if that belief helps you become connect to God and makes you a good person and a benefit to society. I am ok with that. I just don’t believe Jesus is God, nor do I believe it is the most obvious meaning from the words of Jesus.
 
** But I do not believe Jesus is God.**
If you read the four Gospels of Jesus without the Dogma of the Church, you will not walk away believing Jesus is God.
Well, if you don’t read all of it.
I just don’t believe Jesus is God, nor do I believe it is the most obvious meaning from the words of Jesus.
In your search, when you first ever read the following, how did you react?:

John 20:28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
29Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 
Well, if you don’t read all of it.

In your search, when you first ever read the following, how did you react?:

John 20:28Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
29Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
They were Jews. So I thought Thomas was saying my Lordly teacher, and my Godly master.
This has to be understood in the context of John 10:30-36, in which he denied he was God. Thomas sees Jesus as a person who has reached his full potential as Elohim (Psasms 82:6)

Jesus came to get man to reach his full potential as Elohim, as god. And he is no different that anyone else, except that he has reached his full potential.
 
Islam
Muslims believe that the Quran is written by the hand of God himself. It is therefore written outside of human history and therefore do not have a context like the Bible has. A study of the Quran is a study of 7th century Arabic of the Qurashi dialect (since God presumably was not an Englishman but spoke in 7th century Qurashi Arab). There is no study of the mind of the author or the background of the times, etc because if God wrote it himself, there cannot be a context in human history.

As such, one may say that Muslim dogmas fall from the sky in the form of a book written by God himself. The Muslim view of scriptures is a very literalist view (unlike the mainstream Christian view which is very contextual), which is why dogma for Muslims come before context.
Ah, but that’s the beauty of the Qur’an and Islam–they want it both ways.
  1. Qur’an is uncreated, the word of God that existed from the beginning
  2. But a lot of verses (mostly the inconvenient ones!) are said to “apply only to this situation at this particular time” (for example the business about fighting Christians and Jews until they submit, the one about taking captured women as sex slaves, all the verses that justify actions of Muhammad–marrying his adopted son’s wife, etc.). Then there are the abrogated verses–depending on who you listen to, there are either 0 or hundreds.
So they say on the one hand it’s the eternal uncreated word of God, and on the other that a lot of it only pertains to specific situations that no longer apply. Don’t ask me to explain the logic.

Compare this to the Gospels, where everything is meant to apply universally–to everyone at every time.
 
Ah, but that’s the beauty of the Qur’an and Islam–they want it both ways.
  1. Qur’an is uncreated, the word of God that existed from the beginning
  2. But a lot of verses (mostly the inconvenient ones!) are said to “apply only to this situation at this particular time” (for example the business about fighting Christians and Jews until they submit, the one about taking captured women as sex slaves, all the verses that justify actions of Muhammad–marrying his adopted son’s wife, etc.). Then there are the abrogated verses–depending on who you listen to, there are either 0 or hundreds.
So they say on the one hand it’s the eternal uncreated word of God, and on the other that a lot of it only pertains to specific situations that no longer apply. Don’t ask me to explain the logic.

Compare this to the Gospels, where everything is meant to apply universally–to everyone at every time.
But we are stuck in time, and we need to develop. So God can say, you need to learn how to ride a bike a training wheel. Now, that enough people know how to ride a bike, God can abrogate that previous statement and say, you now can teach people to ride a bike with or without a training wheel. God’s speech would still be eternal and uncreated, it just we are at different levels of development.
 
But we are stuck in time, and we need to develop. So God can say, you need to learn how to ride a bike a training wheel. Now, that enough people know how to ride a bike, God can abrogate that previous statement and say, you now can teach people to ride a bike with or without a training wheel. God’s speech would still be eternal and uncreated, it just we are at different levels of development.
I think there is nothing that can be added of substamtial value as it pertains to THIS THREAD when youre going off on a tangent. I kindly suggest a separate thread.

MJ
 
But we are stuck in time, and we need to develop. So God can say, you need to learn how to ride a bike a training wheel. Now, that enough people know how to ride a bike, God can abrogate that previous statement and say, you now can teach people to ride a bike with or without a training wheel. God’s speech would still be eternal and uncreated, it just we are at different levels of development.
We meet again.

As I’ve said before, I have problems with the internal logic of what you’re saying. Please think about what you said–God says one thing, then humans develop, and you can delete the thing God said earlier or change it. But how do you (Muslims) decide when it’s time to take the training wheels off? There are no prophets after Muhammad according to Islam. So who is to say “This verse is now abrogated by this verse over here”? Again–surprise!–we get back to the issue of central authority. In the case of abrogation, you have to admit Muslim scholars are all over the place. Some say no verses have been abrogated (which is a logical position for an uncreated Qur’an that keeps repeating how clear it it) and others give all sorts of different verses. How “clear” can the Qur’an be in this case? It’s certainly not very clear to me.
 
We meet again.

As I’ve said before, I have problems with the internal logic of what you’re saying. Please think about what you said–God says one thing, then humans develop, and you can delete the thing God said earlier or change it. But how do you (Muslims) decide when it’s time to take the training wheels off? There are no prophets after Muhammad according to Islam. So who is to say “This verse is now abrogated by this verse over here”? .
This is about the time when God sends another Prophet, has always done so in the past and will always do so in the future.

Interestingly, humanity always interprets each Prophet as being the “last one” and is therefore allowing themselves to get stuck with the “bike with training wheels on”

.
 
They were Jews. So I thought Thomas was saying my Lordly teacher, and my Godly master.
This has to be understood in the context of John 10:30-36, in which he denied he was God. Thomas sees Jesus as a person who has reached his full potential as Elohim (Psasms 82:6)

Jesus came to get man to reach his full potential as Elohim, as god. And he is no different that anyone else, except that he has reached his full potential.
No, he literally said “The Lord of me and the God of me.”
 
They were Jews. So I thought Thomas was saying my Lordly teacher, and my Godly master.
This has to be understood in the context of John 10:30-36, in which he denied he was God. Thomas sees Jesus as a person who has reached his full potential as Elohim (Psasms 82:6)

Jesus came to get man to reach his full potential as Elohim, as god. And he is no different that anyone else, except that he has reached his full potential.
That is not the literal sense of the said verse. You can interpret it that way but you have to ignore how this scene came about.

It was about Thomas not believing when told that the other apostles had seen Jesus after he was dead leading Thomas to say, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.” (Jn 20:25)

Going into an earlier episode, Jesus death and resurrection meant his prophetic utterance had come true; and that he was the Son of man, the Son of God.

Thomas’ declaration that Jesus is his Lord and his God would thus a continuous reference as to what happened before that.

Reuben
 
  1. Qur’an is uncreated, the word of God that existed from the beginning
Sorry to have to make a correction here. The Quran did not refer to itself as the Word of God unlike the Bible. Instead the title of Firman Allah (Word of God) went to Isa, our own Jesus Son of God.

Watch this conversion by an imam on discovering Jesus as the Word of God in the Quran youtube.com/watch?v=WjUXd4qW9mg Proof I guess that there is truth in the Quran.
 
That is not the literal sense of the said verse. You can interpret it that way but you have to ignore how this scene came about.

It was about Thomas not believing when told that the other apostles had seen Jesus after he was dead leading Thomas to say, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands, and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe.” (Jn 20:25)

Going into an earlier episode, Jesus death and resurrection meant his prophetic utterance had come true; and that he was the Son of man, the Son of God.

Thomas’ declaration that Jesus is his Lord and his God would thus a continuous reference as to what happened before that.

Reuben
Excellent analysis. But now my question is in what way does this prove that the Advocate could be Mohammed? :confused:

MJ
 
Excellent analysis. But now my question is in what way does this prove that the Advocate could be Mohammed? :confused:

MJ
Sorry for the digression there, MJ. :o I suppose the topic of the thread had been dealt with sufficiently with nothing much to be added after the first few pages as John 14 was very clear about the promise of the Holy Spirit. Unless Muslims come up with something new to support their claim that the Advocate was Muhammad, I guess that was all to it. 🤷

I was tempted to respond to the assertion that in Jn 20:28,Thomas did not mean ‘my Lord and my God’ literally. This is another ingenuity from Muslims in insisting that the divinity of Jesus could not be found in the Bible, much as the purported Jn 14 as promising the coming of Muhammad and not the Holy Spirit.

God bless.

Reuben
 
No, he literally said “The Lord of me and the God of me.”
  1. To be honest I don’t know what was literally said, because they spoke Aramaic.
What you have presented is a translation of a translation.

Jesus can be Elohim this has be verified, when Jesus referred to Psalms 82:6. In John 10:36.

As far as other expressions, which may indicate in English, God or Lord. I cannot attribute to him which cannot be fully confirmed.
  1. Jesus was Elohim, as Moses was Elohim. Exodus 7:1.
 
Sorry for the digression there, MJ. :o I suppose the topic of the thread had been dealt with sufficiently with nothing much to be added after the first few pages as John 14 was very clear about the promise of the Holy Spirit. Unless Muslims come up with something new to support their claim that the Advocate was Muhammad, I guess that was all to it. 🤷

I was tempted to respond to the assertion that in Jn 20:28,Thomas did not mean ‘my Lord and my God’ literally. This is another ingenuity from Muslims in insisting that the divinity of Jesus could not be found in the Bible, much as the purported Jn 14 as promising the coming of Muhammad and not the Holy Spirit.

God bless.

Reuben
Haha

I thought the matter was settled. Ultimately, there is no basis to the assertion made.

As we have seen (or was that in another thread I contributed to), for Muslims the starting point is their dogma and the the context of the scriptures are read accordingly - ignoring/amending the context where they contradict with the dogma. Our starting point is
the message of God written within a context, which when understood in itself, yields the conclusion to us that God will send the Holy Spirit (not a human being) after Jesus ascended into heaven.

So far, in all my debates with Muslims, I have yet to see any logical response from Muslims after the other verses in the Bible and the context that state who the Advocate is (so obvious to us but patently ignored by Muslims when they do not comply with their dogma), are explained. Other than to insist that they are right.

The problem to me is after the debate, they go elsewhere and continue to insist that the Advocate is Mohammad even after the explanation is given. I find that insincere - at the very least, they should be qualifying their assertion with the Christian’s side of the arguments - in that they are more interested in pushing their conclusions rather than Truth.

This is especially pertinent when many Muslim missionaries in my country (mis)use the principle of taqiyya to jsutify lying in their missionary activities.
 
We meet again.

As I’ve said before, I have problems with the internal logic of what you’re saying. Please think about what you said–God says one thing, then humans develop, and you can delete the thing God said earlier or change it. But how do you (Muslims) decide when it’s time to take the training wheels off? There are no prophets after Muhammad according to Islam. So who is to say “This verse is now abrogated by this verse over here”? Again–surprise!–we get back to the issue of central authority. In the case of abrogation, you have to admit Muslim scholars are all over the place. Some say no verses have been abrogated (which is a logical position for an uncreated Qur’an that keeps repeating how clear it it) and others give all sorts of different verses. How “clear” can the Qur’an be in this case? It’s certainly not very clear to me.
Just as Christians believe that God guides their priest and bishops. So do Muslims believe that God guides their scholars. Authority exist in Islam, and I’ve already explained that to you, and I will not waste my time on that with you.

Contradictions exist in every scripture. If you believe in the scriptures you will accept the scholarly explanations of it, if you don’t believe in it, you will see contradictions. Sometime even when you believe in it, you will see contradictions, but your belief keeps you in that religion with the hopes that understanding will come, or you consider it an insignificant contradiction and has no bearing on your spiritual progress towards your Lord. That is the nature of scripture.
 
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