Muslims, please tell me if this is unislamic

[jakasaki]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

It’s a must to give wife Mahr. Just because a dad forced his daugther to marry someone , does not mean dad can marry son-in-law’s sister without giving Mahr.

“And give women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, take it and enjoy it with right good cheer”
(An-Nisaa’: 4);

related links:

Conditions of Valid Marriage

And live with them (wives) in fairness. (An-Nisaa’ 4: 19)

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and **you should not treat them with harshness, **that you may take away part of the Mahr you have given them, unless they commit open illegal sexual intercourse. And live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good.
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #19)

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “The best people from among you are those who are best to their wives.”

You quoted me on this above post, but it was not me - it was written in the article.

 

[algebra]

This sounds a bit confused, Algebra. Natural law by definition is universal and immutable, isn’t it? So there’s not one natural law for 7th century Arabs and one for 21st century Americans. Or am I wrong?

Natural law is immutable.

However what we codify is an abstraction of natural law. This codification is an abstraction based on our understanding of natural law and the needs of the society in which it is implemented.

I posit that cutting of a persons hands is barbaric in todays worlds, where prison and rehabilitation are a possibility.

Since however the codification of islamic law is “supposed” to be divine in origin, it is assumed to be a perfect codification for all time in every society.

And my experience and understanding of the world refuses to allow me to acknowledge such a thing.

 

[algebra]

Does this natural law enjoy some sort of ontological or metaphysical reality, of is it simply an ethical proposition you believe will lead to a better world?

As with every reality natural law exists. We can even observe it in action.

Have you ever seen wolves attack bison that dont attempt to attack in return?

So, yes natural law exists.

Based on our observations, and in the greater interest of effeciency we have abstracted and codified natural law to fit the needs of our societies.

As such, in stead of waiting for the nearest relatives of the murder victim to bring retribution to the murderer. The state takes on the responsibility, and attempts to ensure that the crime and punishment are equal.

Natural law can be implemented differently, but the end results are similar.

If you do some bad, some bad will be done to you, in return.

 

[neploho]

As with every reality natural law exists. We can even observe it in action.

Have you ever seen wolves attack bison that dont attempt to attack in return?

So, yes natural law exists.

What in the world are you talking about?

Based on our observations, and in the greater interest of effeciency we have abstracted and codified natural law to fit the needs of our societies.

As such, in stead of waiting for the nearest relatives of the murder victim to bring retribution to the murderer. The state takes on the responsibility, and attempts to ensure that the crime and punishment are equal.

Natural law can be implemented differently, but the end results are similar.

If you do some bad, some bad will be done to you, in return.

uh huh. If that is your best definition and argument for “natural law” then I would drop it. To be honest I still can’t fully make sense of what you are saying. Perhapse this is a limitation on my part, but in this case I really doubt that is the case.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

You quoted me on this above post, but it was not me - it was written in the article.

I clicked on reply , your post came blank. So , I copied the lines u posted …anything wrong with that ?

 

[jakasaki]

I clicked on reply , your post came blank. So , I copied the lines u posted …anything wrong with that ?

No worries my dear…

I just wanted to point that out that it was the article which you were quoting and it seemed as if I wrote what you quoted… I was just clarifing, that’s all…!

Take care!

 

[josie_L]

I do not think you are being very respectful. I am suggesting that cultures are different and times change. Ultimately, though, if a girl reachs puberty then she can have babies. This means that science says she is ready to get married, potentially. Perhaps the girl may not be emotionally prepared to be married, but this is something for the parents and families to address. In 7th century Arabia, there were no colleges to attend for young ladies or men. You are vilifying their culture but…based on what??? Incidentally, how old do you think the Blessed Mother was when married?

The blessed Mother was 14 or 15 years old when she married, yet she never consumated her marriage. So my next question should be obvious, how does this fit in with a 9 year old who was still playing with dolls and had a nurse while also performing sexual acts with a 53 year old man? Do you not see that Aisha has per their own scriptures and hadiths was not ready for sex as she was still a child in her mind and body? Honestly, are all of you so blinded by this simple truth.

 

[algebra]

uh huh. If that is your best definition and argument for “natural law” then I would drop it. To be honest I still can’t fully make sense of what you are saying. Perhapse this is a limitation on my part, but in this case I really doubt that is the case.

Lets make it simple.

We can create a mathematical model that approximates the vibrations of a drum beat.

The complexities of the model increase, but they are models, approximations of a real drum beat.

We have drum machines where we could sample every single drum beat in the world, but that would be hideously inefficient.

In much the same way our laws are approximations of our understanding of natural law.

We develop these approximations by observing how natural law works in the world.

Do you get it now?

 

[planten]

Lets make it simple.

We can create a mathematical model that approximates the vibrations of a drum beat.

The complexities of the model increase, but they are models, approximations of a real drum beat.

We have drum machines where we could sample every single drum beat in the world, but that would be hideously inefficient.

In much the same way our laws are approximations of our understanding of natural law.

We develop these approximations by observing how natural law works in the world.

Do you get it now?

** Not understood at all. I am a fan of real and complex algebra. Algebra is a branch of mathematics which is the invention of the Arab Muslims. They did well for sometime and then went to sleep.

algebra, are you trying to explain the laws of nature through algebra. Does your algebra have anything to do with the spiritual matters? I give an example:

You come to my place. I offer you a cup of tea with honest love and good wishes. How much that cup of tea will be costing in material value?? May be not more than a few cents. You could measure the value of the cup of tea easily by ordinary mathematics.

But could you, by any scale, measure the love and affection that was attached to that cup of tea? Then please use your algebra to find out.

I know there is a complex algebra, matrix algebra and boolean algebra. May be you could make use of the complex algebra. Please tell what you will do about religious / spiritual matters. Thanks.**

 

[neploho]

Lets make it simple.

We can create a mathematical model that approximates the vibrations of a drum beat.

The complexities of the model increase, but they are models, approximations of a real drum beat.

We have drum machines where we could sample every single drum beat in the world, but that would be hideously inefficient.

In much the same way our laws are approximations of our understanding of natural law.

We develop these approximations by observing how natural law works in the world.

Do you get it now?

No. I understand more or less what you are trying to get across with this example, but your larger argument is unclear.

You have said that natural law exists in response to me question. Which I would take to mean that there is a natural law. A mathematical model may exist, it may be a quasi empirical thing, I’ll let philosophers and mathematicians decide that, but the formula used to model the beat is still a human construction designed to represent the phenomena. You are asserting that the construction of human laws are like the mathematical representation of particular wave frequencies. That is fine. I am asking what rational or empirical evidence you have that the phenomena purportedly being modeled actually exists. Now I cannot gather an answer from your response to that question, and this clarification does not do much to help the situation much.

You claim we gather approximations by observing how this natural law operates in the world. I am not aware of any natural law being observed.

 

[eichenb2]

The blessed Mother was 14 or 15 years old when she married, yet she never consumated her marriage. So my next question should be obvious, how does this fit in with a 9 year old who was still playing with dolls and had a nurse while also performing sexual acts with a 53 year old man? Do you not see that Aisha has per their own scriptures and hadiths was not ready for sex as she was still a child in her mind and body? Honestly, are all of you so blinded by this simple truth.

Gee, thanks for the insult. I will not recipricate, though. The Blessed Virgen did not consummate her marriage, because of Jesus. If He has not been immaculately conceived, the marriage would have been consummated, as many similar marriages were done. Also, it is clear from the hadeeth literature that Muslim did not have intercourse with her until she had reached puberty. So, my critique stands. As much as this may be abhorred in 2009 USA, several facts are apparent.

1. Marriage of a girl (just after puberty), by older men, was not abnormal in 7th century Arabia or the larger Semitic societies, even up until that 100 years.
2. Biology dictates that a girl can bear children after puberty. Most societies, and specifically Semitic societies view marriage as the only licit outlet for sexual intercourse and child bearing.
3. This incident of playing with dolls is irrelevant to the discussion.
4. The original article was concerning whether or not the mother, who was divorced or separated, was permitted by the law to ask for the marriage to be annulled. It had nothing to do with the age of the bride.
5. Sharia (Islamic Law) does not allow a man to have intercourse with a pre-pubescent girl. However, marriages can be arranged.
   For the record, let me be clear that I disagree with the practice on the grounds that the girl is very likely not psychologically prepared for marriage.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Also, it is clear from the hadeeth literature that Muslim did not have intercourse with her until she had reached puberty. So, my critique stands.

Intercourse, no, but sexual activity, yes.

As much as this may be abhorred in 2009 USA, several facts are apparent.

1. Marriage of a girl (just after puberty), by older men, was not abnormal in 7th century Arabia or the larger Semitic societies, even up until that 100 years.

It is still being practiced today.

1. Biology dictates that a girl can bear children after puberty. Most societies, and specifically Semitic societies view marriage as the only licit outlet for sexual intercourse and child bearing.

As well as any sexual activity.

1. This incident of playing with dolls is irrelevant to the discussion.

I disagree. It shows she was still immature and not ready for an adult relationship

1. The original article was concerning whether or not the mother, who was divorced or separated, was permitted by the law to ask for the marriage to be annulled. It had nothing to do with the age of the bride.

1. Sharia (Islamic Law) does not allow a man to have intercourse with a pre-pubescent girl. However, marriages can be arranged.

In actual fact the marriages were performed, not just arranged

For the record, let me be clear that I disagree with the practice on the grounds that the girl is very likely not psychologically prepared for marriage.

There is a big difference between arranging marriages an actually performing marriage with young girls. Also,although intercourse with prebescent girls is not acceptable, sexual activity was practiced.

 

[planten]

Intercourse, no, but sexual activity, yes. It is still being practiced today. As well as any sexual activity. I disagree. It shows she was still immature and not ready for an adult relationship In actual fact the marriages were performed, not just arrangedThere is a big difference between arranging marriages an actually performing marriage with young girls. Also,although intercourse with prebescent girls is not acceptable, sexual activity was practiced.

**eichenb2 is right. marriage can be arranged but not practiced. You people do not understand the things. There is a word Nikah in Arabic which stands for actual marriage i.e. the wife (lady) entering into the house with a man by proper marriage or without proper marriage. They may have sexual intercourse or not, it is immaterial. Just living together like a husband and wife is called Nikah. But the right Nikah is the legal one only.

In India / Pakistan and may be in many other countries, it is a practice to arrange the marriage at the very young age. But the girl does not leave her fathers house. Even the document of marriage may be prepared and the marriage announced. The girl will not leave the father’s house until all things are normal i.e. the girl becomes of age.

WE see many funny works amongst the western christians. There was a person, an Englihman, who had long life ( I do not want to mention any name here). Some one asked him the secret of his longevity. He said that he did not go near the wine and women until the age of 11.

So, what do you say about such cases that are going on amongst different people. Why to discuss one person only. that also on the basis of very little information. It is difficult to look back into something that happened 1400 years ago. Similarly, we can discuss why Jesus was not married till the age of 30. It is unbelievable. Is it not odd that a Jew would not marry till the age of 30?

If you enter into serious discussion about Muhammad, we Muslims can like wise try to investigate some of your things too, your marriage problems.**

 

[jakasaki]

**eichenb2 is right. marriage can be arranged but not practiced. You people do not understand the things. There is a word Nikah in Arabic which stands for actual marriage i.e. the wife (lady) entering into the house with a man by proper marriage or without proper marriage. They may have sexual intercourse or not, it is immaterial. Just living together like a husband and wife is called Nikah. But the right Nikah is the legal one only.

In India / Pakistan and may be in many other countries, it is a practice to arrange the marriage at the very young age. But the girl does not leave her fathers house. Even the document of marriage may be prepared and the marriage announced. The girl will not leave the father’s house until all things are normal i.e. the girl becomes of age.

WE see many funny works amongst the western christians. There was a person, an Englihman, who had long life ( I do not want to mention any name here). Some one asked him the secret of his longevity. He said that he did not go near the wine and women until the age of 11.

So, what do you say about such cases that are going on amongst different people. Why to discuss one person only. that also on the basis of very little information. It is difficult to look back into something that happened 1400 years ago. Similarly, we can discuss why Jesus was not married till the age of 30. It is unbelievable. Is it not odd that a Jew would not marry till the age of 30?
**
If you enter into serious discussion about Muhammad, we Muslims can like wise try to investigate some of your things too, your marriage problems./****COLOR]

I’ve said this before, I’ll say it again,… we are talking about a prophet of GOD as mohamad claimed to be and not just an average Joe Arab from the 7th century.

 

[white_sheep]

I think it is a step forward on the women’s rights issue for them to be given in marriage to settle a debt. It shows that they have value. Some societies have the family pay a dowry to the husband to take the woman, as if she is a great burden.

 

[qui_est_ce]

eichenb2 is right. marriage can be arranged but not practiced. You people do not understand the things. There is a word Nikah in Arabic which stands for actual marriage i.e. the wife (lady) entering into the house with a man by proper marriage or without proper marriage. They may have sexual intercourse or not, it is immaterial. Just living together like a husband and wife is called Nikah. But the right Nikah is the legal one only.

edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/17/saudi.child.marriage/index.html

*(CNN) – The debate over the controversial practice of child marriage in Saudi Arabia was pushed back into the spotlight this week, with the kingdom’s top cleric saying that it’s OK for girls as young as 10 to wed.

“It is incorrect to say that it’s not permitted to marry off girls who are 15 and younger,” Sheikh Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh, the kingdom’s grand mufti, said in remarks quoted Wednesday in the regional Al-Hayat newspaper. “A girl aged 10 or 12 can be married. Those who think she’s too young are wrong and they are being unfair to her.”*

This is a TOP SAUDI CLERIC, not just a practice by SOME Muslims.

WE see many funny works amongst the western christians. There was a person, an Englihman, who had long life ( I do not want to mention any name here). Some one asked him the secret of his longevity. He said that he did not go near the wine and women until the age of 11.

Those “funny things” are against Christian teaching. The top cleric for Catholics, the Pope, denounces such "funny things.

So, what do you say about such cases that are going on amongst different people. Why to discuss one person only. that also on the basis of very little information. It is difficult to look back into something that happened 1400 years ago. Similarly, we can discuss why Jesus was not married till the age of 30. It is unbelievable. Is it not odd that a Jew would not marry till the age of 30?

No, it is not funny. Start a new thread.

If you enter into serious discussion about Muhammad, we Muslims can like wise try to investigate some of your things too, your marriage problems

I welcome this. Start a new thread and post a link.

btw, your orange posts are hard to read

 

[sedonaman]

Intercourse, no, but sexual activity, yes. …

Ain’t you guys ever been in the military?

Punitive Articles of the UCMJ
Article 120—Rape and carnal knowledge

1. US Military

(a) Any person subject to this chapter who commits an act of sexual intercourse by force and without consent, is guilty of rape and shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.”

(b) Any person subject to this chapter who, under circumstances not amounting to rape, commits an act of sexual intercourse with a person—

  (1) who is not his or her spouse; and

  (2) who has not attained the age of sixteen years, is guilty of carnal knowledge and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(c) Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete either of these offenses.

 

[josie_L]

Gee, thanks for the insult. I will not recipricate, though. The Blessed Virgen did not consummate her marriage, because of Jesus. If He has not been immaculately conceived, the marriage would have been consummated, as many similar marriages were done. Also, it is clear from the hadeeth literature that Muslim did not have intercourse with her until she had reached puberty. So, my critique stands. As much as this may be abhorred in 2009 USA, several facts are apparent.

1. Marriage of a girl (just after puberty), by older men, was not abnormal in 7th century Arabia or the larger Semitic societies, even up until that 100 years.
2. Biology dictates that a girl can bear children after puberty. Most societies, and specifically Semitic societies view marriage as the only licit outlet for sexual intercourse and child bearing.
3. This incident of playing with dolls is irrelevant to the discussion.
4. The original article was concerning whether or not the mother, who was divorced or separated, was permitted by the law to ask for the marriage to be annulled. It had nothing to do with the age of the bride.
5. Sharia (Islamic Law) does not allow a man to have intercourse with a pre-pubescent girl. However, marriages can be arranged.
   For the record, let me be clear that I disagree with the practice on the grounds that the girl is very likely not psychologically prepared for marriage.

"Girls were considered nubile (of marriageable age) at age twelve, although both Pepin and Charlemagne passed legislation prohibiting the marriage of girls or boy before the age of puberty. Since the age of menarch (puberty for girls) was apparently around age thirteen (similar to the age of menarch in the twentieth century and earlier than in the nineteenth century) . . . "

The reign of Charlemagne was only a century or so after Mohammed, so my question is, how fast do you think girls in the 7th century pubesced as compared with the 8th century. We know that girls reached the age of menarch at the same age throughout most of history.

Aisha was 9 years old when she had sex with Mohammed.

 

[sedonaman]

The reign of Charlemagne was only a century or so after Mohammed, so my question is, how fast do you think girls in the 7th century pubesced as compared with the 8th century?].

We don’t have to think how fast; we have planten’s, Muslim Woman’s, and Sister Amy’s assurances that if Mohammed said it, it must be true.

 

[planten]

Josie L:

Aisha was 9 years old when she had sex with Mohammed.

**Would you kindly mention that muhammad married at the age of 25 to a widow who was 40 years old. He lived well with her for about 12 years till she died. Later he, married other ladies. All of them were widows or divorcees. Aisha was the only one virgin wife. She was not so young as you might place her.
When the prophet migrated with Abubakr from Makkah, it was Aisha who had prepared all the food stuff for ordous (Dangerous) journey. She was not a child as you people are reading things. Can you not start a new subject and leave the doubtful things about our prophet.

After all it was not only the marriage with Aisha that was the most important part of his life of our prophet that you are all trying tp propagate. He did many other things too. That is your ill will, bad attitude. We Muslims can clearly see that you have no religion at all. It is all an assumed fanciful wishful thinking that is gone into your bible and your minds. There is nothing true or real. All imaginary beliefs that Mary did not meet her husband (Jospeh the Crapentar even after marriage). that she never saw any man even after giving birth to Jesus. That Jesus is the only sinless man. All thee are your wishful thinking about your own man Jesus. That is your good wishes.

On the other hand you have all the bad wishes for Muhammad. And you are searching unreliable stories out of books for nothing. I tell you that Jesus was a Jew and nothing more than a Jew and he was only for the Jews under the command of the prophet Moses like all the other Israeli prophets. Please understand. he had nothing to do with christianity. He never even thought of starting a new religion which you are carrying around.

So come to these points too. Think about these things and leave the private life of Muhammad alone otherwise please be ready to discuss the very private life of Jesus too on this board. There are many books from the Jewish sources where Jesus belonged.

You should all think over individually and come to the right course about preaching your faith in a good manner. Other wise your bad manners are well known to every one by now.**