Muslims, same or different God

[Rightlydivide]

So how is it that you believe that Jews and Christians worship the same God.

The Chrisitans have written a new text, just as the Muslims have. The Jews accept neither of these texts as inspired.

Does anyone know how the Muslims view the OT and NT?

To be clear, I don’t accept the Koran as scripture. I think Muhammed was a nut, to be frank, and misinformed. His complaint against Christianity and Judaism was formed out of ignorance. However, I don’t deny that Muslims worship the God of Abraham.

Many of the Christian complaints against the doctrines of the CC today are formed out of ignorance, too. This doesn’t mean that the Christian churches that teach false doctrines aren’t worshiping the same god.

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.

We accept every characteristic in the Old Testament as being accurate as revealed. There is nothing false and no deception. God cannot lie. The Old Testament is truth. However, God continued to reveal in Christ His Truth in the New Testament. The Jews do not believe that. We do.
600 years later I do not believe that God revealed additional truth in the Koran. I do not believe that God would only reveal partial truth if He sent Gabriel. If Gabriel did not actually appear, it is a lie. If he did, it is truth.

 

[Rightlydivide]

The Koran is not an interpretation of the New Testament or Old Testament. It is a revelation from Allah to Muhammad his prophet and messenger. IT it was just an interpretation, that would be accurate. We could say they have a faulty interpretation but this is new revelation through Gabriel. That (an interpretation) is not what the Koran claims to be and that is not what Muslims claims it is either.

 

[kalt]

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.

We accept every characteristic in the Old Testament as being accurate as revealed. There is nothing false and no deception. God cannot lie. The Old Testament is truth. However, God continued to reveal in Christ His Truth in the New Testament. The Jews do not believe that. We do.
600 years later I do not believe that God revealed additional truth in the Koran. I do not believe that God would only reveal partial truth if He sent Gabriel. If Gabriel did not actually appear, it is a lie. If he did, it is truth.

I don’t believe that Muhammed is a prophet, either. And the Jews don’t believe that Jesus is God.

The Jewish interpretation of the OT and the Christian interpretation are different. Where we see “types” that point to Jesus, they don’t. We see verses as presaging Jesus, and they interpret those verses another way.

We see the OT as scripture, but we’ve reinterpreted it. Jews and Christians don’t believe exactly the same things about the OT, and we don’t believe exactly the same things about God. How is this different? How do you say, then, that because the Muslims interpret the OT differently, they aren’t worshiping the same God, when Christians also intepret it differently?

I’m looking for consistancy in your argument. It seems that you aren’t applying the standard evenly. You apply it to the Muslims (They must believe exactly the same things about God that Christians do to worship the same God), but don’t apply it to Christians (They are free to believe different things about God than Jews do and are still worshiping the same god.)

 

[kalt]

The Koran is not an interpretation of the New Testament or Old Testament. It is a revelation from Allah to Muhammad his prophet and messenger. IT it was just an interpretation, that would be accurate. We could say they have a faulty interpretation but this is new revelation through Gabriel. That (an interpretation) is not what the Koran claims to be and that is not what Muslims claims it is either.

Are you saying that Muhammed had no knowledge of the OT when he wrote the Koran? That the story didn’t come from the OT? If that were the case, it would truly be a miracle that he managed to know all the names from the OT and knew the stories associated with certain names. Even the name of the angel, Gabriel. That would be one heck of a conincidence. It seems, rather, that Muhammed did know the OT and NT and that he reinterpreted them to suit himself/his political aims.

Do you have anything authoritative on the subject? A link?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Because I do not believe their revelation is a real revelation. A false revelation is a false revelation. Do the Book of Mormon, Science and Health and Key to the Scriptures, and the Urantia Book followers worship the same God as well? Can God be the same if His characteristics in subsequent “revelations” differ substantially? That is the key; subsequent. The Old is completely true but incomplete. The New is the completion.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Are you saying that Muhammed had no knowledge of the OT when he wrote the Koran? That the story didn’t come from the OT? If that were the case, it would truly be a miracle that he managed to know all the names from the OT and knew the stories associated with certain names. Even the name of the angel, Gabriel. That would be one heck of a conincidence. It seems, rather, that Muhammed did know the OT and NT and that he reinterpreted them to suit himself/his political aims.

Do you have anything authoritative on the subject? A link?

I am sure he knew them. No…chuckle…I dont keep Muslim links handy.
How much truth does a false prophet have?
Let me even rephrase that, how much credence should a false prophet have?

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

 

[stenlis]

I’ll leave the theological consideration to others but I’d like to make a linguistic point.

Most of the popular literature describes Muslims as believing in ‘Allah’ as if ‘Allah’ was some kind of Arabic personification of a god-like figure. In reality the word ‘Allah’ means ‘God’. Literally. If you’d want to translate the phrase ‘Christian God’ into Arabic, you would use the word ‘Allah’.

What makes me wonder is how western media often mistranslate this thing. The most famous instance is probably the basic sacred Muslim recitation, mostly translated as ‘There is no /other/ god but Allah’. The original Arabic says (transcribed into latin) 'ašhadu ‘al-lā ilāha illā llāhu’. Literally ‘There is no god but God’ - a direct equivalent of the Christian ‘Thou shalt not have other gods before me’.

 

[kalt]

Because I do not believe their revelation is a real revelation. A false revelation is a false revelation. Do the Book of Mormon, Science and Health and Key to the Scriptures, and the Urantia Book followers worship the same God as well? Can God be the same if His characteristics in subsequent “revelations” differ substantially? That is the key; subsequent. The Old is completely true but incomplete. The New is the completion.

And the Jews don’t believe that the NT is real revelation. The Trinity seemsto be substantially different from the God in Jewish interpretation of the OT.

 

[kalt]

I am sure he knew them. No…chuckle…I dont keep Muslim links handy.
How much truth does a false prophet have?
Let me even rephrase that, how much credence should a false prophet have?

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

That’s a bit of a strawman argument, since I didn’t say that we should give Muhammed credence at all.

I’m not sure how much of the truth about God Muhammed kept and how much he made up. If you know, please share.

And can’t this argument be made against the Christian churches that have broken away from the CC? They’ve reinterpreted the Bible and changed doctrines. Non-Catholics don’t believe that Jesus founded the church he founded, even! If all Christians worship the same God, wouldn’t they all belong to the church He founded?

I’m not saying that you worship a different god, I’m just showing you that you believe different things about God than Catholics do. You will say that these things aren’t important differences, I guess, but choosing not to belong to the Church that your god founded seems to be a huge difference in belief. It’s like saying that I’m Jewish by I don’t think that the temple is corrupt and I’m going to open my own temple, not in communion with the temple, and change beliefs and practices.

Still, that difference isn’t enough to say that you worship a different god.

 

[Rightlydivide]

And the Jews don’t believe that the NT is real revelation. The Trinity seemsto be substantially different from the God in Jewish interpretation of the OT.

The question is not whether or not the Jew considers them the same God. The question is whether we do. I would never, have never, blamed an Orthodox Jew for believing that we are worshipping something different by having a new revelation. Let me say it again. If I were a Jew, I would feel the same way. But we accept their revelation as incomplete and so we do worship the same God but we believe their revelation is incomplete but nothing, absolutely nothing about it is false. There are not two seperate Gods; Old and New. That is the heresy of Marcion possibly. The Koran is also a claimed revelation. I understand their claim to worship the same God but I reject it because their view of God disagrees with the Old and New Testament’s revelation about who God is.
If Muhammad is a false prophet, his revelation about the character of God is false. In essence, our view is clouded or not complete. Just because the first revelation given to the Jew is the same as ours, does not mean that I have to accept every subsequent revelation by Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Mary Baker Eddy, and any number of people as being the same God because they say it is.
I have to evaluate their claims. What kind of standard are we setting when we say they worship the same God simply because they claim to? Is there an evaluation of the claim?
If I say to you that I worship the same God as you do and I also tell you that that God told me in a dream that the God of Abraham also told me to have 40 wives, that is not the same God. See the distinction. I am not talking about a different interpretion of the same book. This is additonal revelation. A new book.

 

[Rightlydivide]

That’s a bit of a strawman argument, since I didn’t say that we should give Muhammed credence at all.

I’m not sure how much of the truth about God Muhammed kept and how much he made up. If you know, please share.

And can’t this argument be made against the Christian churches that have broken away from the CC? They’ve reinterpreted the Bible and changed doctrines. Non-Catholics don’t believe that Jesus founded the church he founded, even! If all Christians worship the same God, wouldn’t they all belong to the church He founded?

I’m not saying that you worship a different god, I’m just showing you that you believe different things about God than Catholics do. You will say that these things aren’t important differences, I guess, but choosing not to belong to the Church that your god founded seems to be a huge difference in belief. It’s like saying that I’m Jewish by I don’t think that the temple is corrupt and I’m going to open my own temple, not in communion with the temple, and change beliefs and practices.

Still, that difference isn’t enough to say that you worship a different god.

Allah is defined by Muhammad. If we do not give him credence, how is it that we accept things that he said?

we not are dealing with interpretations but false prophecy. Prophecy and interpretation are two different things. How much truth can we find in a false prophet? I personally could see someone saying it is a waste of time trying to find out how much truth a false prophet has after it has been established they are a false prophet.

 

[kalt]

The question is not whether or not the Jew considers them the same God. The question is whether we do. I would never, have never, blamed an Orthodox Jew for believing that we are worshipping something different by having a new revelation. Let me say it again. If I were a Jew, I would feel the same way. But we accept their revelation as incomplete and so we do worship the same God but we believe their revelation is incomplete but nothing, absolutely nothing about it is false. There are not two seperate Gods; Old and New. That is the heresy of Marcion possibly. The Koran is also a claimed revelation. I understand their claim to worship the same God but I reject it because their view of God disagrees with the Old and New Testament’s revelation about who God is.
If Muhammad is a false prophet, his revelation about the character of God is false. In essence, our view is clouded or not complete. Just because the first revelation given to the Jew is the same as ours, does not mean that I have to accept every subsequent revelation by Joseph Smith, Muhammad, Mary Baker Eddy, and any number of people as being the same God because they say it is.
I have to evaluate their claims. What kind of standard are we setting when we say they worship the same God simply because they claim to? Is there an evaluation of the claim?
If I say to you that I worship the same God as you do and I also tell you that that God told me in a dream that the God of Abraham also told me to have 40 wives, that is not the same God. See the distinction. I am not talking about a different interpretion of the same book. This is additonal revelation. A new book.

But wait. You say that the Muslims worship a different God because they believe different things than we do. But you say that Jews worship the same god, though they beleive different things than we do.

Why do you believe that the Jews, though they believe different things about God than we do, believe in the same God? As you said ealier, “That which is different is not the same.” You believe that it was truth as revealed then, but of course the NT reveals more.

The Christian text is beleived to complete the OT. The Koran is believed to correct the corruption of the Jews and Christians.

It’s understandable that you don’t accept the Koran. Neither do I. But you can’t deny truth were you find it and accept the same truth in your own religion. If someone is worshiping the God of Abraham, no matter what they believe about that God, they are worshiping the same God.

A good example is some of the non-Christian sects. They aren’t considered Christian, because their teaching on the trinity is incorrect, but they do worship the God of Abraham. They aren’t Christian, but they don’t worship a different God.

If you believe that the god in the OT is the same god we find in the NT, anyone who worships the god of the OT, worships the god that Christians worship.

 

[kalt]

Allah is defined by Muhammad. If we do not give him credence, how is it that we accept things that he said?

we not are dealing with interpretations but false prophecy. Prophecy and interpretation are two different things. How much truth can we find in a false prophet? I personally could see someone saying it is a waste of time trying to find out how much truth a false prophet has after it has been established they are a false prophet.

A Christian sets himself up as a prophet and says that it’s ok to take more than one wife. The rest of his teaching, including the definition of the Trinity, is pretty much in accord with the CC. Do the members of his church worship a different God?

Another starts a new church, claiming that there aren’t 7 Sacraments and that God didn’t build his church on Peter. The rest of the teaching is pretty much in accord with the CC. Do the members of this church worship a different god?

 

[Rightlydivide]

=kalt;6273357]But wait. You say that the Muslims worship a different God because they believe different things than we do. But you say that Jews worship the same god, though they beleive different things than we do.

I did not say that Muslims worship a different God because “they believe different things”. I said just the opposite. I said that what you know about Allah comes from a false prophet or claims additional revelation. I have made a point to not focus on interpretation but revelation.

Why do you believe that the Jews, though they believe different things about God than we do, believe in the same God?

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.

The Christian text is beleived to complete the OT. The Koran is believed to correct the corruption of the Jews and Christians.

Yes. They believe that. We should evaluate their claim or do we just accept it?

It’s understandable that you don’t accept the Koran. Neither do I. But you can’t deny truth were you find it and accept the same truth in your own religion. If someone is worshiping the God of Abraham, no matter what they believe about that God, they are worshiping the same God.

How can the God of Abraham be seperated from the revelation that He revealed himself to us? You are worshipping God no matter what you believe about God?

A good example is some of the non-Christian sects. They aren’t considered Christian, because their teaching on the trinity is incorrect, but they do worship the God of Abraham. They aren’t Christian, but they don’t worship a different God.

If they claim additional revelation that reveals a different nature of God, yes they do.

If you believe that the god in the OT is the same god we find in the NT, anyone who worships the god of the OT, worships the god that Christians worship.

Not to an Orthodox Jew. He was not completely revealed in the Old Testament. I do not beleive that false revelation can give additional information about God.

 

[Rightlydivide]

A Christian sets himself up as a prophet and says that it’s ok to take more than one wife. The rest of his teaching, including the definition of the Trinity, is pretty much in accord with the CC. Do the members of his church worship a different God?

Yes. He is a false prophet and His God is false and not the true God. He has claimed to be a prophet and his prophecy must be evaluated.

Another starts a new church, claiming that there aren’t 7 Sacraments and that God didn’t build his church on Peter. The rest of the teaching is pretty much in accord with the CC. Do the members of this church worship a different god]

There is no additional prophecy that adds to what God has said about Himself. There is a difference in interpretation only.

 

[kalt]

I did not say that Muslims worship a different God because “they believe different things”. I said just the opposite. I said that what you know about Allah comes from a false prophet or claims additional revelation. I have made a point to not focus on interpretation but revelation.

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let [him] go.

Yes. They believe that. We should evaluate their claim or do we just accept it?

How can the God of Abraham be seperated from the revelation that He revealed himself to us? You are worshipping God no matter what you believe about God?

If they claim additional revelation that reveals a different nature of God, yes they do.

Not to an Orthodox Jew. He was not completely revealed in the Old Testament. I do not beleive that false revelation can give additional information about God.

I asked you what Muslims believe about God that is true, and you said that you didn’t know. You really don’t know what Muslims believe about God, I think, and yet you deny that they worship God. You say “What you know about Allah”. No. What I know about God comes from the OT, NT, and Tradition. I know what Muslims believe about God from what they say they believe, the same way I know what you believe about God.

And doesn’t the Christiant claim of the Trinity reveal a different nature of God? Jews don’t believe that God is a trinity of persons, yet one god.

False revelattion can’t give additional information about God, and I didn’t say that. Not sure what your point was in saying that.

 

[hamba2han]

Suppose there were three ancient tribes of Sun-worshipers, even though they may have lived in different time periods and locations and they called the Sun by different names and they practiced worship rituals which were markedly different from one another, nevertheless they would still be worshiping the same Sun.

Muslims worship the One Lord and Creator of the Universe and all that exists within it.

Unless Christians and Jews believe that there is more than one physical Universe, then we worship the same Lord.

 

[kalt]

We’re just going around in circles here. You claim that to believe in the same god, we must have a concensus in belief, except for the hand-picked exceptions to the rule you created. This does nothing but attempt to protect yourself (your beliefs) from appearing to worship a god that’s different from the god the Jews worship, according to your own standard–Claims to new revelation prove that you aren’t worshiping the same god, except for the NT claim to new revelation. Different beliefs about the scriptures prove that you aren’t worshiping the same god, expect for the differences Christians have from the centuries-old interpretations of the Jews. The truth counts as truth, unless it’s the truth that Islam teaches about the God of Abraham. The truth that the CC teaches about God (as it matches Judaisms’ teaching) counts, period.

I know that Muhammed wasn’t a prophet, and I know that Luther had no authority to change doctrine. Still, both worship the god that the Catholics worship.

That Muhammed wasn’t a prophet is irrelevant, really. The truth is that Muslims worship God. If you think they don’t, then you must think that there was some other god talking to Muhammed.

God wasn’t talking to Muhammed and Muhammed didn’t claim to be creating a new god. So what god do they worship?

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[kalt]

Suppose there were three ancient tribes of Sun-worshipers, even though they may have lived in different time periods and locations and they called the Sun by different names and they practiced worship rituals which were markedly different from one another, nevertheless they would still be worshiping the same Sun.

Muslims worship the One Lord and Creator of the Universe and all that exists within it.

Unless Christians and Jews believe that there is more than one physical Universe, then we worship the same Lord.

Thank you!! I thought I was almost alone on this.

What does Islam say about the OT and the NT?

 

[Rightlydivide]

We’re just going around in circles here. *You claim *that to believe in the same god, we must have a concensus in belief, except for the hand-picked exceptions to the rule you created. This *does nothing but attempt to protect yourself *(your beliefs) from appearing to worship a god that’s different from the god the Jews worship, according to your own standard–Claims to new revelation prove that you aren’t worshiping the same god, except for the NT claim to new revelation. Different beliefs about the scriptures prove that you aren’t worshiping the same god, expect for the differences Christians have from the centuries-old interpretations of the Jews. The truth counts as truth, unless it’s the truth that Islam teaches about the God of Abraham. The truth that the CC teaches about God (as it matches Judaisms’ teaching) counts, period.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

I do not think that most Christians believe that Allah and God are the same so I am not creating anything. As far as “protecting myself”, I will bow out on the first attempt to bring personalities into this. I do not enjoy doing that. Takes a very good conversation and makes it emotionally based. Your “motive is bad or good” is just not needed. People do that because it is the internet I believe.

Since this seems to be the last post, I will repeat that what we know about Allah comes from Muhammad. He is the prophet.

Here is an example.

If I told you that Steven Reynolds of God is Alive and his name is Steven Reynolds Assembly told me yesterday that he worships the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob (I am not sure if that is an important distinction) and that God wants teenage boys to cut a finger off and poo in a circle in the backyard because the angel Gabriel told him in a series of messages, I suspect you would have a hard time believing that we worship the same God.
In talking to my neighbor Frank about it, Frank could say “Man that God that Steven worships is WAY out there”. If I said, “NO, its the same God”. Frank would be very confused. As he should be.
Have a good day.