Muslims vandalize Christian graves

[dzheremi]

Anger and frustration at what? The fact that there are Christians in Palestine? In a primarily Christian village at that? If Palestinian Muslims have a problem with that, then Palestine has more occupiers than just the Israeli settlers…

Since Palestinian Christians suffer just as Muslims do, I frankly don’t see anger and frustration at the state of affairs in Palestine as being any sort of justification for this. As you yourself have so correctly pointed out, there is NO justification for this in any respect, religious or otherwise. My Palestinian Christian friends are also upset at the situation in their homeland, but they don’t act out their frustrations by destroy Muslim property or desecrating Muslim holy places. Go figure.

As far as unfarily generalizing goes, I could have provided links for each one of the items on the list that is in my earlier post (specifics stories, so really the opposite of generalizations), but since my point isn’t that Muslims are bad people by virtue of their being Muslims, I don’t feel the need to clobber anyone over the head with more violence. We all know that these things happen. Extremism is not alien to any religion.

I don’t really care that 99% of anyone in some poll would condemn an act if no one is actually willing to DO anything about it. I know that far, far more Muslims are killed in terrorist attacks than Christians. The demographics of the region in which most of these attacks happen make that a foregone conclusion. I also don’t care what makes the news. The website from which this story was taken is not one that I’ve ever heard of, and I’d bet that they don’t have too much to do with whatever you’ll see on BBC or CNN or whatever. Please don’t insult my intelligence by trying to insinuate that what Islam really has is just an “image” problem! I’m willing to grant, as I did in the post that you responded to in the line that starts “this is not so much the case with this particular story…”, that there is nothing particular to this event that screams “the perpetrators did this in accordance with (some version of) Islam”, but I am not willing to make the illogical extension that the poster I was responding to seemed to want to make that because there is no explicitly stated religious motivation for this particular event (which I would say is nonetheless certainly there implicitly), there cannot ever be a religious motivation for any similar event that involves a Muslim population and a non-Muslim population, when in fact the Qur’an itself describes many such uneasy meetings and they always seem to make some religious point (in fact, the same religious point: Everyone should convert to Islam, non-Muslims are bad people, Muhammad is great and everyone should follow him, etc).

If you are uncomfortable with being lumped in with Muslims because some of them do bad things, then what should I refer to you as instead?

 

[Sam_777]

I’m just fascinated by this “Islam is a peaceful religion that has been hijacked by extremists” argument.

Who said extremists are hijacking Islam!, those extremists are devoted Muslims who are implementing Islam 100% like Osama Bin Laden and his group, those extremists have very high reputation between most Muslims.

 

[ferdie]

It’s hard to see that coming from a person who I thought made a great explanation to the other topic (honor killing)…

this act is unthinkable to any good practicing muslim…the perpetrators acted out of anger and frustration and has nothing to do with Islam…

you mentioned extremists killing Christians, but what you didn’t mention is that these extremists have killed more fellow Muslims than any other people…they even bomb Mosques in Iraq and Afghanistan,

If a survey was conducted in that area, 99% would condemn this act…but that as usaual doesn’t make news

dzheremi, Yes we have problems with extremists , but stop putting us with them as one group you call “muslims”…stop generalizing…

How are you condemning the actions of these “extremists”? Where is this 99% that would condemn this act? This big of a crowd will be covered by unbiased news agency if they really exist. Are they afraid to tell the “extremists” that they have the wrong understanding of Islam? Are there any investigation being done to catch these “extremists”?
Please show us that Islam is peaceful by your action. This 99% can organize and challenge these extremists in a public debate or public discussion. Our Holy Father have opened the door for reasonable discussion with your religion, you should also within your religion.

 

[elwill]

How are you condemning the actions of these “extremists”? Where is this 99% that would condemn this act? This big of a crowd will be covered by unbiased news agency if they really exist. Are they afraid to tell the “extremists” that they have the wrong understanding of Islam? Are there any investigation being done to catch these “extremists”?
Please show us that Islam is peaceful by your action. This 99% can organize and challenge these extremists in a public debate or public discussion. Our Holy Father have opened the door for reasonable discussion with your religion, you should also within your religion.

excuse me , can i knaow the christianity by the behaviour of group of christians (and may be some priests either ) ? or is your criteria applicable with only islam

which group from muslims proclaim thier responsibility to argue with them anyway , or is it just guesses ?

and what is the kind of discussion you want muslims to do with them , did those unknown group claimed that thier religion command them to do so in the first place to discuss with them the religion ?

 

[DeoSalvatoreMeo]

This is just really disappointing news. I mean, this comes on the heels of Pope Benedict’s visit to the Palestinian territories. They couldn’t even wait a few months before persecuting Christians again? It’s like, as soon as the exhaust from the Popemobile lifted, they were off to desecrate Christian graves… Unbelievable! So much for ecumenism with Muslims. We’ve seen time and again that Islamic teaching does not include getting along with others. Apparently, everything they needed to know, they did not learn in Kindergarten. If only the worst of it could be that Muslims didn’t learn not to run with scissors.

 

[Hadi]

excuse me , can i knaow the christianity by the behaviour of group of christians (and may be some priests either ) ? or is your criteria applicable with only islam

which group from muslims proclaim thier responsibility to argue with them anyway , or is it just guesses ?

and what is the kind of discussion you want muslims to do with them , did those unknown group claimed that thier religion command them to do so in the first place to discuss with them the religion ?

because Muslims in this forum are guilty by association to every single action of the 1.2 billion Muslims and the reason given is “Well, they are all Muslims”

 

[DeoSalvatoreMeo]

because Muslims in this forum are guilty by association to every single action of the 1.2 billion Muslims and the reason given is “Well, they are all Muslims”

Look, I understand where you are coming from. Catholics face the same criticisms whenever one of our members or clergy sin. The difference is, I don’t see anything in Islamic teaching that leads me to believe that Muslims value “getting along”. By that I mean, getting along for the sole purpose of getting along and for love of neighbor. Sure, I’ve seen the Quran verses from the Mecca days, before Muhammad had power that discusses getting along… for the sake of saving themselves. But those verses were abrogated by the Medina verses which are all about slaughtering and persecuting non-Muslims… Verses that came about after Muhammad had power and enough followers to carry out attacks against non-Muslim populations to spread Islam through violence. There is no “Golden Rule” in Islam.

 

[ferdie]

excuse me , can i knaow the christianity by the behaviour of group of christians (and may be some priests either ) ? or is your criteria applicable with only islam

which group from muslims proclaim thier responsibility to argue with them anyway , or is it just guesses ?

and what is the kind of discussion you want muslims to do with them , did those unknown group claimed that thier religion command them to do so in the first place to discuss with them the religion ?

Discuss with them what the real Quran teaches. Reason with them and tell them that by their actions their are telling the whole world a false Islam. When ever they do such things, denounce them publicly in their face, organize counter rallies denouncing the actions of the “extremists”. Collect the cell phone numbers of the peacful Imams and tell them to be quick in to actions when ever “extremsits” do violence to other people. I’ve been saying this for 10 years now and it seems that most of the “peaceful muslims” are content with speaking in forums like this where no news agency will cover it. Go out there and protest the actions of the “extremists”:

 

[ferdie]

because Muslims in this forum are guilty by association to every single action of the 1.2 billion Muslims and the reason given is “Well, they are all Muslims”

Some people may say that. I don’t. But to prove these people wrong then do something about it. Go out there and organize the “peaceful muslims” and challenge them into public debate on what the real Quran teaches. Show the world that you are not guilty by your silence. And when I say silence, I’m not talking about participation in forums like this, but participation out there in the streets. Don’t argue with us about the actions of the extremists, argue with these “extremists”.

 

[dzheremi]

Sam: The argument that “Islam is not the problem, extremism is” was posted by Dale_M.

Hadi: No one is saying that every Muslim is guilty by association of the crimes committed by these people, as though there is no difference between those who desecrate graves and those who don’t. What we are saying (or at least what I’m saying) is that if you want to close your eyes to extremism within Islam in order to make arguments like “Islam is not the problem, extremists are” then you have to ignore many more cases than just this one, including many where the people doing the crimes specifically say that they are doing them BECAUSE of Islam. They are saying that. And they base it on verses in the Qur’an that exhort them to fight those who do not believe in Muhammad and his religion.

Ultimately I don’t think it is a coincidence that Christians are a vulnerable minority in nearly every Muslim-occupied land (only “nearly” because I have heard that there are good relations in Syria), as the religion enshrined in many of these countries’ law codes does not recognize any sort of equality between believers in different religions.

It is a little late to complain about how unfair we are being to you by virtue of your religious affiliation after 1400 years of this kind of evil from Islam. While we post messages that are critical of your religion on a message board, your co-religionists kill non-Muslims in places far away and removed from the sorts of situations that Muslims usually cite to explain why terrorism happens (wars or other bad things in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine). Is anyone saying that YOU personally do it? No. That’s not the point. Islam is more than just your nice neighbor or friend who gets along with you. It is also a political and religious ideology that commands you to fight others because Islam should rule the world and Islam is the only religion acceptable to God and all that other stupid garbage that Islamists trot out. That is what we object to. If Islam were half as peaceful as its apologists claim it is, we wouldn’t have any sort of argument. But there are too many instances throughout history and today to remain willfully ignorant of non-Muslims’ treatment in Muslim regions.

 

[Hadi]

Ferdie,

I agree 100% with what you said,I have joined many Arabic forums to promote tolerance and back that up from the Quran…Many times I stepped into topics that say:

“Christians are killing muslims” or “Christians are desecrating the Quran” …

and I defend Christianity and tell them that this absolutely does not represent Christianity nor Christians and quote to them some verses in the Gospel…same thing happens when they post anti-Jewish materials.

I also talk with people face to face and explain to them their misconceptions about Christan theology or Christan understanding on some issues…

but the issue of desecrating Christian graves is a bit different

*The conflict in PA is very complicated (Muslims vs Muslims, Muslims w Christians vs Jews, Christians vs Muslims) and involves all sort of violence ,for instance , last week a group of Jewish extremists desecrated some graves in Bab Al-rahma cemetery.

*This act cannot be justified in the name of Islam …no where in Islam it says to commit this act, in fact , we are commanded to respect the grave of a human being.

*Would you blame Jews for desecrating Christian graves in 18,2,2007 in Israel (not in PA) arabs48.com/display.x?cid=6&sid=5&id=43162

The point is, desecrating Christian, Jewish and Muslims graves have been done in the past by the followers of those three religions…

 

[ferdie]

Ferdie,

I agree 100% with what you said,I have joined many Arabic forums to promote tolerance and back that up from the Quran…Many times I stepped into topics that say:

“Christians are killing muslims” or “Christians are desecrating the Quran” …

and I defend Christianity and tell them that this absolutely does not represent Christianity nor Christians and quote to them some verses in the Gospel…same thing happens when they post anti-Jewish materials.

I also talk with people face to face and explain to them their misconceptions about Christan theology or Christan understanding on some issues…

but the issue of desecrating Christian graves is a bit different

*The conflict in PA is very complicated (Muslims vs Muslims, Muslims w Christians vs Jews, Christians vs Muslims) and involves all sort of violence ,for instance , last week a group of Jewish extremists desecrated some graves in Bab Al-rahma cemetery.

*This act cannot be justified in the name of Islam …no where in Islam it says to commit this act, in fact , we are commanded to respect the grave of a human being.

*Would you blame Jews for desecrating Christian graves in 18,2,2007 in Israel (not in PA) arabs48.com/display.x?cid=6&sid=5&id=43162

The point is, desecrating Christian, Jewish and Muslims graves have been done in the past by the followers of those three religions…

Then we need more Muslims like you. Imagine if 99% of Muslims will discuss and correct the unacceptable behaviors of the “extremists”, then inter religious dialogue, and peace is not impossible. I’d like to march with Muslims as well as with my non catholic brethren in fighting against the greatest evil of this world, abortion and the selling buying of ungodliness behavior.
You can also employ your Muslim clerics. I think they have the authority within their mosques to device a plan in combating the extremists by way of debate and religious instructions.

 

[elwill]

Then we need more Muslims like you. Imagine if 99% of Muslims will discuss and correct the unacceptable behaviors of the “extremists”, then inter religious dialogue, and peace is not impossible. I’d like to march with Muslims as well as with my non catholic brethren in fighting against the greatest evil of this world, abortion and the selling buying of ungodliness behavior.
You can also employ your Muslim clerics. I think they have the authority within their mosques to device a plan in combating the extremists by way of debate and religious instructions.

wow , are you really think that muslims justifies the terrorist’s behaviours ?

 

[ferdie]

wow , are you really think that muslims justifies the terrorist’s behaviours ?

excuse me , can i knaow the christianity by the behaviour of group of christians (and may be some priests either ) ? or is your criteria applicable with only islam

which group from muslims proclaim thier responsibility to argue with them anyway , or is it just guesses ?

and what is the kind of discussion you want muslims to do with them , did those unknown group claimed that thier religion command them to do so in the first place to discuss with them the religion ?

I think we are having some language barrier here. Either I am not making myself clear or you are just misinterpreting my post.
I am not saying that Muslims are justifying the extremists behavior. I just think that Muslims that have a different interpretation of the Quran or the Muslims who think that Islam is a peaceful religion should and must assert that they have the right interpretation of the Quran by debating and confronting the Muslim extremists out there. Instead of telling us that Islam is peaceful, why not show us by your action. Show us by confronting the extremists and educating them with the right interpretation. Are you willing to do that? Are you brave enough to confront your extremists brethren and debate them who has the right interpretation of the Quran, or are you just going to repeat here that 99% percent of Muslims are peaceful?

 

[elwill]

I think we are having some language barrier here. Either I am not making myself clear or you are just misinterpreting my post.
I am not saying that Muslims are justifying the extremists behavior. I just think that Muslims that have a different interpretation of the Quran or the Muslims who think that Islam is a peaceful religion should and must assert that they have the right interpretation of the Quran by debating and confronting the Muslim extremists out there. Instead of telling us that Islam is peaceful, why not show us by your action.** Show us by confronting the extremists and educating them with the right interpretation. Are you willing to do that? Are you brave enough to confront your extremists brethren and debate them who has the right interpretation of the Quran**, or are you just going to repeat here that 99% percent of Muslims are peaceful?

about the interpretation of quran , there are two interpretations for the violence verses in quran
**one of them is islamic interpretation (islamic sites) , and the others is anti_islamic interpreatation (anti_islamic sites ) **
i don’t know third party you are talking about which is supposed to be the interpretation of extremist muslims

can you give me the muslim sites which represent the interpretation of quran from extremist’s point of view ?

 

[Sam_777]

Sam: The argument that “Islam is not the problem, extremism is” was posted by Dale_M.

I know :hug1:, I was just elaborating more.

and I defend Christianity and tell them that this absolutely does not represent Christianity nor Christians and quote to them some verses in the Gospel…same thing happens when they post anti-Jewish materials.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif :hug1:

 

[Jay53]

about the interpretation of quran , there are two interpretations for the violence verses in quran
**one of them is islamic interpretation (islamic sites) , and the others is anti_islamic interpreatation (anti_islamic sites ) **
i don’t know third party you are talking about which is supposed to be the interpretation of extremist muslims

can you give me the muslim sites which represent the interpretation of quran from extremist’s point of view ?

I think the “third party” ferdie is referring to is the groups such as the Taliban and Al Quaeda who are blowing people up and saying that they do this based on the Quran. Actions such as the Taliban refusing to let females go to school, throwing acid on them, blowing up and threatening to blow up all their schools. These people are the ones saying that they are interpreting the Quran correctly and that they are acting in accordance with God’s laws.

 

[elwill]

I think the “third party” ferdie is referring to is the groups such as the Taliban and Al Quaeda who are blowing people up and saying that they do this based on the Quran. Actions such as the Taliban refusing to let females go to school, throwing acid on them, blowing up and threatening to blow up all their schools. These people are the ones saying that they are interpreting the Quran correctly and that they are acting in accordance with God’s laws.

i know what he means , i just want reliable information , from what i read it seems to me the there are many interpratations for the quran as if it was complicated to understand and know the correct massage of it

for my question to be more plain

give me the interpretation of quran from taliban point of view , in the tonque of them

don’t just tell me taliban are muslims , taliban do thier action based on the quran
give me reliable information please

give me the verse of the quran then give me thier interpretation for this verse

 

[Jay53]

i know what he means , i just want reliable information , from what i read it seems to me the there are many interpratations for the quran as if it was complicated to understand and know the correct massage of it

for my question to be more plain

give me the interpretation of quran from taliban point of view , in the tonque of them

don’t just tell me taliban are muslims , taliban do thier action based on the quran
give me reliable information please

give me the verse of the quran then give me thier interpretation for this verse

Since I don’t speak Arabic, I’ll have to defer to those who do to find something directly from them in their own tongue.

I’m curious as to your own point of view on this. Why do you believe the Taliban and Al Quaeda are committing these atrocities, both against Muslims and non-Muslims?

 

[ferdie]

i know what he means , i just want reliable information , from what i read it seems to me the there are many interpratations for the quran as if it was complicated to understand and know the correct massage of it

for my question to be more plain

give me the interpretation of quran from taliban point of view , in the tonque of them

don’t just tell me taliban are muslims , taliban do thier action based on the quran
give me reliable information please

give me the verse of the quran then give me thier interpretation for this verse

elwill, you live in Egypt and you are asking me for reliable information? I’m from the Philippines and I don’t need to give you verses in the Quran to prove to you that they are doing violence to non-Muslims in the name of Allah. I don’t need to keep track of what they say when they do evil things against non-Muslims. I’ve heard them say before that we are pigs, specially jews, that we don’t have the right to exist, that I should leave their muslim countries, since I don’t belong there, that I don’t have the right to question them even if what they are proposing me to do were waste of time and resources, or unsafe and since I am just an employee and that they can terminate my contract anytime they want to. First time I felt the evil of racism was in Muslim countries, and the first time and last time someone spat on me were in Muslim countries. I experience recism here in the US, but worse in Muslim Countries. Here in the US I can fight back, in Muslim countries I can’t, I’ll probably be dead even if I just answered or reasoned back.Don’t be naive here elwill. If you don’t know that these things are happening in some Muslim countries, then you need to wake up and get out of your world.

Why do you think Abu Sayyaff, Taliban, Al Qaeda, Hamas, and other unorganized Muslims do violence to non-muslims? They don’t just do violence for political reason, and you know that. Racism runs deep in Muslim countries, even my Muslims friends were victims of racism. Being Filipino Muslims didn’t help them. So spare me the reliable evidence you are looking for. Wake up and don’t be naive!