Muslims: What If......?

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I believe in the Divine
How do you know how the divine wants you to live your life. Does the Divine simply create and leave us to do whatever we want? and how do we know if what we want is in line with what the divine wants, where is the proof or evidence for this. After all, the creation of the universe is evidence for the existence of the divine isn’t it?

Therefore if He provides us evidence in his creation to recognize him, then surely He must have provided us evidence for how to live.
Do you agree this is a logical assertion?
 
How do you know how the divine wants you to live your life.
I dont so I just live my life the best I can.
Does the Divine simply create and leave us to do whatever we want?
That appears to be the case.
and how do we know if what we want is in line with what the divine wants, where is the proof or evidence for this.
Just be natural. Thats the way of the universe.

If God wants me to live a different life, I want to hear it from him DIRECTLY, not from you or anyone else. And certainly not from somebody who died 1400 years ago.
After all, the creation of the universe is evidence for the existence of the divine isn’t it?
Of course.
Therefore if He provides us evidence in his creation to recognize him, then surely He must have provided us evidence for how to live.
How to live…use your gifts. If you are smart, discover the secrets of the universe. If you are beautiful, display it for everyone’s content. If you have a good voice, sing. If you are strong, work. If you are compassionate, serve. If you are charismatic, lead.

BE NATURAL.
 
Just be natural. Thats the way of the universe.
“survival of the fitest” is also a natural law that we see in the animal kingdom. A person who usups and opresses others is also “being natural”, by his own interpretation he can say the law of nature is to kill or be killed or that “might is right”

do you agree thats also being natural? Animals trespass on other animals all the time so who’s to say we can’t do the same to each other?

or what about briliant scienists who can create designer babies. Imagine a designer baby that has small legs, strong and short in stature. They would be perfect for working the mines. Who is there to say we can’t do that, after the scientist is only being natural, using his natural talents.

The fact is that morality and ethics are products of religion. Even though you don’t follow any formal religion. Your morality and ethics you’ve grown u with and have accepted to be the norm are a product of judeo-christian morality.

unfortunately there are many around the world who don’t grow up with the same morality and ethics as ourselves i.e. (kim jong il the general of north korea). Is he wrong for not accpting our concept of right and wrong? and isn’t he in his capacity being natural?
 
“survival of the fitest” is also a natural law that we see in the animal kingdom.
Is it? A tautology is what we see in the animal kingdom?

(that’s what survival of the fittest is; that which survives is ‘fit’ and therefore survives - a tautology)
 
Is it? A tautology is what we see in the animal kingdom?

(that’s what survival of the fittest is; that which survives is ‘fit’ and therefore survives - a tautology)
True but not always the case. For instance the male lion will kill the cubs of female lions from other males in order to mate with the female. What I meant to say is survival of the strong(est)
 
What I meant to say is survival of the strong(est)
Doesn’t make for ‘fitness’ though - just ‘strongest’. For the strongest might not be ‘fit’ to survive.

The strong lion might have the cubs, but the weak lion might have the mutation that would have allowed them to survive better in drought. And the whole pride die in the drought.

Take another example…

When baby turtles make their way down the beach to the sea there’s gulls and other birds that are waiting. The gull doesn’t weed out the ‘weakest’ baby turtle. It goes for the one closest to it. It’s more ‘luck’. Survival of the luckiest.

That’s why Darwin’s basic premise is so dumb. That which survives survives. Or, as Behe put it; “Survival of the Surviviest”.

It’s sooo dumb in fact that in order to illustrate ‘natural selection’ he used examples of pigeon breeders. Thus he used ‘artificial/directed selection’ to show how a directionless system might ‘select’ what animals survive.

And, even today brainiacs such as Richard Dawkins continue to push models to demonstrate evolution that don’t demonstrate evolution; such as bio-morphs! (these are computer models)

Here’s what Richard Milton says about computer modelling…granted this is referring to whole creatures like Dawkins did…but hopefully you’ll get the point…
“In his book “The Blind Watchmaker” Richard Dawkins describes a computer program he wrote which randomly generates symmetrical figures from dots and lines. These figures, to a human eye, have a resemblance to a variety of objects. Dawkins gives some of them insect and animal names…Dawkins calls these creations ‘biomorphs’ meaning life shapes or living shapes…He also refers to them as “quasi-biological’ forms and in a moment of excitement calls them ‘exquisite creatures’. He plainly believes that in some way they correspond to the real word of living animals
(Dawkins says of his biomorphs) “With a wild surmise, I began to breed generation after generation… my incredulity grew in parallel with the evolving resemblance… Admittedly they have like a spider…” (However) The only thing about the biomorphs that is biological is Richard Dawkins, their creator. The program Dawkins wrote and the computer he used have no analog at all in the real biological world…his program is not a true representation of random mutation coupled with natural selection. On the contrary it is dependent on artificial selections (conducted by Dawkins) in which he controls the rate of occurrence. There is also no failure in his program: his biomorphs are not subject to fatal consequences of degenerate mutations like real living things. And most important of all, he chooses which are the luck individuals to receive the next mutation.” quoted from “Shattering the Myths of Darwinism” pp168-9.

Anyway, if you want to make your own biomorphs, go to
rennard.org/alife/english/biomintrgb.html

(Which says “The third chapter of the blind watchmaker is dedicated to the biomorph program developed by Dawkins that points out the power of micro-mutations and cumulative selection.”
All it means is that micro-mutations of a computer program, and cumulative selection by the programmer!)

From Dawkins’ book

“‘Nothing in my biologist’s intuition, nothing in my 20 years experience of* programming computers, and nothing in my wildest dreams, prepared me for what actually emerged on the screen. I can’t remember exactly when in the sequence it first began to dawn on me that an evolved resemblance to something* like an insect was possible. With a wild surmise, I began to breed**** generation after generation, from whichever child looked most like an insect.* My incredulity grew in parallel with the evolving resemblance. . . Admittedly they have eight legs like a spider, instead of six like an insect, but even so!* I still cannot conceal from you my feeling of exhultation as I first watched these exquisite creatures emerging before my eyes.’“

He talks of ‘generations’, ‘breeding’, ‘evolving resemblance’, ‘evolved resemblance to something like an insect’, ‘child’, ‘exquisite creatures’.

He urges you to act as Natural Selection, in finding out how easy small mutations can lead you.

But again from that web-site
“** According to those who believe in alternative theories, this chain merely does not exist : it is impossible to consider the simultaneous evolution of each component of the eye, always respecting a growing evolutive advantage. For Darwin, who examined the example of the eye in the Chapter dealing with the difficulties of his theory, this chain must exist, even if the fossil archives do not permit its reconstitution3.
*** Dawkins has always fought for evolution., for him this chain exists. Furthermore its main steps can be reconstituted”
rennard.org/alife/english/biomintrgb.html
 
Doesn’t make for ‘fitness’ though - just ‘strongest’. For the strongest might not be ‘fit’ to survive.

The strong lion might have the cubs, but the weak lion might have the mutation that would have allowed them to survive better in drought. And the whole pride die in the drought.

Take another example…

When baby turtles make their way down the beach to the sea there’s gulls and other birds that are waiting. The gull doesn’t weed out the ‘weakest’ baby turtle. It goes for the one closest to it. It’s more ‘luck’. Survival of the luckiest.

That’s why Darwin’s basic premise is so dumb. That which survives survives. Or, as Behe put it; “Survival of the Surviviest”.
Hi

I agree with you, it is not essential that the fittest survives always.There are many factors.

Thanks
 
BUMP
Muslims say that the Bible used to be God’s word, was corrupted by men, and God had to send forth Mohammed with a new book to restore true worship.

My question:

If the Qur’an were to become corrupted by men, would God send forth yet another messenger and another book?
We seem to have gone off-topic so after some 🍕 I thought I’d get back to this before it was closed

As noted earlier there was at the time of an early Caliph several different versions of the Koran hanging around. He chose one and ordered all the alternatives to be destroyed. How he chose the ‘right’ one I do not as yet know.:confused:
 
BUMP

We seem to have gone off-topic so after some 🍕 I thought I’d get back to this before it was closed

As noted earlier there was at the time of an early Caliph several different versions of the Koran hanging around. He chose one and ordered all the alternatives to be destroyed. How he chose the ‘right’ one I do not as yet know.:confused:
The one that survied.😛
 
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