Muslims - Why the Two Claims?

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Augustine3

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Muslims allege Jesus did not die on the cross but God made it appear that way to the witnesses.

To add to God’s deception Muslims also allege the Christians fabricated the bible. As if God’s deception wasn’t bad enough, the Christians added additional fuel to the fire.

I have no idea how that works…please explain?
 
Augustine3 said:
Muslims allege Jesus did not die on the cross but God made it appear that way to the witnesses.

To add to God’s deception Muslims also allege the Christians fabricated the bible. As if God’s deception wasn’t bad enough, the Christians added additional fuel to the fire.

I have no idea how that works…please explain?
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Not only that they also claim God replaced Jesus on the cross with someone else to die in his place. :confused:

They have a weird concept of God
 
The Crucifixion fact is Evil number one enemy, Evil does not want any redemption plan for us.
 
Augustine3 said:
Muslims allege Jesus did not die on the cross but God made it appear that way to the witnesses.

To add to God’s deception Muslims also allege the Christians fabricated the bible. As if God’s deception wasn’t bad enough, the Christians added additional fuel to the fire.

I have no idea how that works…please explain?
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  1. It appeared that Jesus died on the cross. So this explains why Christians believe Jesus died on the cross. When I studied Orthodox Christianity, what I found interesting about that tradition is they don’t believe salvation is based on Jesus’ Crucifixion. They believe his incarnation is enough for salvation. The early Church fathers taught. God became man so that man might become god.
  2. We don’t believe the bible is fabricated, we believe the bible has been tampered with, meaning that it is not in its original form, and this is not untrue. In fact this is true about the Old and the New Testament any biblical scholar will tell you this.
 
TheSufi said:
  1. We don’t believe the bible is fabricated, we believe the bible has been tampered with, meaning that it is not in its original form, and this is not untrue. In fact this is true about the Old and the New Testament any biblical scholar will tell you this.
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References please?
 
Augustine3 said:
References please?
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I am not trying to convince you to become muslim. But you have to do the research.
The bible is tampered with. that is fact, it is not about belief. There are Christians who know the bible is tampered with yet they remain Christian. And that is fine.

I’ve been researching this for 3-4 years now. And you have to compare what the scholars say, and determine which scholars you want to follow.

You have to reflect on what the different scholars say, how does it effect your faith as a Christian. You have to be a seeker of knowledge, and discover the truth for yourself.
 
TheSufi said:
I am not trying to convince you to become muslim. But you have to do the research.
The bible is tampered with. that is fact, it is not about belief. There are Christians who know the bible is tampered with yet they remain Christian. And that is fine.

I’ve been researching this for 3-4 years now. And you have to compare what the scholars say, and determine which scholars you want to follow.

You have to reflect on what the different scholars say, how does it effect you:blush:r faith as a Christian. You have to be a seeker of knowledge, and discover the truth for yo:blush:urself.
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You didn’t provide any references, therefore your argument is fallacious. Nice try though.
 
What i don’t understand is why God would need to sacrifice himself on the cross just to forgive humans for their sins???
This is like putting limitations on God, saying that he can only do this if he does that, this is clearly blasphemous.
 
expounder said:
What i don’t understand is why God would need to sacrifice himself on the cross just to forgive humans for their sins???
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It is about love. In short, the price of sin is death. In order a person is set free from sin, the price must be paid.

The cross was one of the methods of execution during that period. It does not have to be the cross. But a cross symbolized shame and humiliation. Only notorious non-Roman criminals were executed by the Romans on the cross. In Christianity, the cross can be a symbol of many things but clearly it is a symbol of God’s love and victory.
expounder said:
This is like putting limitations on God, saying that he can only do this if he does that, this is clearly blasphemous.
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It can be a limitation if God is forced to do it. It is not when God wants to do it. There’s the difference.

It is not a blasphemy but a glory for God because his love is so great that save mankind.
 
Reuben_J said:
It is about love. In short, the price of sin is death. In order a person is set free from sin, the price must be paid.

The cross was one of the methods of execution during that period. It does not have to be the cross. But a cross symbolized shame and humiliation. Only notorious non-Roman criminals were executed by the Romans on the cross. In Christianity, the cross can be a symbol of many things but clearly it is a symbol of God’s love and victory.

It can be a limitation if God is forced to do it. It is not when God wants to do it. There’s the difference.

It is not a blasphemy but a glory for God because his love is so great that save mankind.
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Can you link some references that support this
 
TheSufi said:
  1. It appeared that Jesus died on the cross. So this explains why Christians believe Jesus died on the cross. When I studied Orthodox Christianity, what I found interesting about that tradition is they don’t believe salvation is based on Jesus’ Crucifixion. They believe his incarnation is enough for salvation. The early Church fathers taught. God became man so that man might become god.
  2. We don’t believe the bible is fabricated, we believe the bible has been tampered with, meaning that it is not in its original form, and this is not untrue. In fact this is true about the Old and the New Testament any biblical scholar will tell you this.
Click to expand...
Please give me the references for #1 because the whole point of Christianity is that Jesus died for our sins. The incarnation is just part of it. And there was a witness that saw blood and water from the wound in his side. That was not fabricated.

As for #2, you need to provide a solid reference as proof. The bible was NEVER tampered with.
 
Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin
(deuteronomy 24:16)

So we’re saying God abrogated his own teachings?

Exodus 32:30-35
King James Version (KJV)
30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin–; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.

35 And the Lord plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

Even here we see that God rejects the illogical notion but carries out justice to the perpetrators not moses as a scapegoat
 
Jesus is said to be fully God, God cannot die so the notion of Jesus dying on the cros in incorrect.
 
expounder said:
Can you link some references that support this
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I can’t right now. You have to take my words for this and if you disagree, just point them out to me. It is good if you put your reason on why you disagree. But if not, it does not matter. I will be glad to clarify. 🙂
 
If Jesus is fully God then why was Satan able to tempt him, even though he chose to ignore him how can he be tempted by his own creation who should have no power over him?
 
Reuben_J said:
Jesus is fully God and fully man. Man can die.
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Yes but God cannot die, saying his is both fully God and fully human is well illogical because it does not make any sense at all. If we ask can Jesus lie, we would say no as he is god but then he is fully human and all humans make mistakes. Then if we say yes- he can lie- it goes directly against the sovereignty of God
 
jediliz said:
Please give me the references for #1 because the whole point of Christianity is that Jesus died for our sins. The incarnation is just part of it. And there was a witness that saw blood and water from the wound in his side. That was not fabricated.
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Maybe the Orthodox can answer TheSufi on that. 🙂
jediliz said:
As for #2, you need to provide a solid reference as proof. The bible was NEVER tampered with.
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Islam was found on a belief. I do not think it has proof on this.
 
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