Muslims: Why would God make a revelation that is contradictory to the revelation of Jesus?

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MartinJordan said:
I didn’t ask about Mohammed. Just give me a name of a sunni Organisation or Shiite that praises your prophet.

MJ
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. I think you’re asking a difficult question here, for in order to define someone as a Prophet, which is difficult for most Muslims to accept, having been taught that Muhammad: is the “Seal of the Prophets”, which appears in the Quran, and has been defined for them as meaning that no Prophet will appear after Muhammad.

. Whereas Baha’u’llah states that there have always been and will continue to be Prophets sent to us by God, and that the meaning of the words “Seal of the Prophets” does not indicate finality. It is like the Alpha and Omega statement, which appears in several religions. He Who is the Omega is also the Alpha. He is the First and the Last. Thus, being the Last, He is also the First, and capable of saying so.

. From the Baha’i perspective, coming from the first paragraph of the Kitab-i-Iqan (Most Holy Book), we were created with the capacity to behold the Manifestations sent by God for the age in which we live:

. “The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”

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daler said:
Martin,
. Thank you for stating what you see as an impasse. Here is the theological construct:

. The “Manifestation of God” is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Thus, in every Age in which the Manifestation of God appears, He is the Way to God. Do you follow? I’m not asking you to accept it. Just asking if you understand what the construct is.

. So we do not sweep anything under the rug, dodge, or play games in any way with any of this, although we have some different understandings of the nature of what has been taught by the Prophets.

. Going further, when Jesus said: “Before Abraham was, I am”, one way to consider this is that His reality existed prior to Abraham, right? And since Abraham physically existed before Jesus (as a physical person), then He could just as well say: “Before Jesus was, I am.”

. The point being, that the “Reality” of the Manifestation of God exists apart from Their appearance to us in human form (like ourselves), and that whenever that Reality is expressed as a Manifestation of God amongst us, He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is not restricted to a temporary physical and biological identity, whom we call by this or that name only, whether Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad, etc. That is the appearance at a specific time and place, for our benefit, that we might recognize the true Path to God by following Them, as They all lead us to God.
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Daler, please use the Bible and the NT sincerely as a product of the Church. The Bible was not interpreted only in the 19th century.

That is the reality one has to face.

MJ
 
daler said:
. I think you’re asking a difficult question here, for in order to define someone as a Prophet, which is difficult for most Muslims to accept, having been taught that Muhammad: is the “Seal of the Prophets”, which appears in the Quran, and has been defined for them as meaning that no Prophet will appear after Muhammad.

. Whereas Baha’u’llah states that there have always been and will continue to be Prophets sent to us by God, and that the meaning of the words “Seal of the Prophets” does not indicate finality. It is like the Alpha and Omega statement, which appears in several religions. He Who is the Omega is also the Alpha. He is the First and the Last. Thus, being the Last, He is also the First, and capable of saying so.

. From the Baha’i perspective, coming from the first paragraph of the Kitab-i-Iqan (Most Holy Book), we were created with the capacity to behold the Manifestations sent by God for the age in which we live:

. “The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.”

.
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So what you are saying is no Muslim will praise your prophet. Is that right?

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Daler, please use the Bible and the NT sincerely as a product of the Church. The Bible was not interpreted only in the 19th century.

That is the reality one has to face.

MJ
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Martin,
. Thank you for the courteous response indicating your beliefs and understanding. Mine differ somewhat, and it is difficult to express in ways other than the way I have come to understand what it is that I have come to believe and why.

. The major point, I think, is that when Jesus, for example appeared, he did not “interpret” certain things in the Old Testament in the way that the Pharisees were used to, and at this point in time, those of us who recognize Christ and accept Him as the Messiah accept His interpretations above theirs. Is this your understanding as well?

. Following this logic, then, it is reasonable to assume from the perspective of anyone who has recognized the current Manifestation of God, or whatever term you might choose to call Him, as having the Authority to interpret and “unseal” such things as were not fully understood in the previous Dispensations.

. This, by its very nature, creates difficulties for those who feel, for whatever reasons, that “their” Prophet was the last One to appear. Whether we speak of the Jews stating that “No Prophet will appear after Moses”, or Christians saying “No Prophet will appear after Jesus”, or Muslims saying “No Prophet will appear after Muhammad.”

. Quite specifically, Baha’u’llah states that another Manifestation of God “will” appear, although “not for a thousand, or thousands of years”. It was much more specific with regarding the time prophecies which referred to Jesus and Baha’u’llah, and even Muhammad. They are quite apparent, even to the year, at least in hindsight, for each of them, and including the Bab, as well, with p(name removed by moderator)oint accuracy, in fact.
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MartinJordan said:
So what you are saying is no Muslim will praise your prophet. Is that right?

MJ
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It may depend upon what you mean by “praise”, for there were many Muslims who praised Baha’u’llah without recognizing Him as the One foretold in the Quran and other Scriptures.
 
Servant19 said:
Martin, can you show me where you asked me which Muslim organisation praises Baha’u’llah?

:confused:

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You said millions of Muslims acknowledge your prophet. So where are these Muslims? Sunnis and Shiites are Muslims.

MJ
 
daler said:
It may depend upon what you mean by “praise”, for there were many Muslims who praised Baha’u’llah without recognizing Him as the One foretold in the Quran and other Scriptures.
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Just one Muslim. Daler, you’re not answering me.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
You said millions of Muslims acknowledge your prophet. So where are these Muslims? Sunnis and Shiites are Muslims.

MJ
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Martin,
. They have become Baha’is. Probably at least two million Muslims and as many Christians, as well as perhaps a million or more Hindus, several hundred thousand Native Americans from the Western Hemisphere, etc.

. The statement is to be compared to asking at what point do Jews who praise Christ become Christian, or are they just praising Him, and what do you call those who do either?

. At least ten per cent of Iranian Jews have recognized Baha’u’llah and become Baha’is. In doing so, they praise Christ and accept Him. No one can be a Baha’i without accepting Christ.
 
daler said:
Martin,
. They have become Baha’is. Probably at least two million Muslims and as many Christians, as well as perhaps a million or more Hindus, several hundred thousand Native Americans from the Western Hemisphere, etc.

. The statement is to be compared to asking at what point do Jews who praise Christ become Christian, or are they just praising Him, and what do you call those who do either?

. At least ten per cent of Iranian Jews have recognized Baha’u’llah and become Baha’is. In doing so, they praise Christ and accept Him. No one can be a Baha’i without accepting Christ.
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So you can’t name one. Thank you.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Just one Muslim. Daler, you’re not answering me.

MJ
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Well, I could start with some Muslim in-laws who very much respected Baha’u’llah and the example their relatives set as Baha’is. Let’s see, there was Abbas, Ali …

Most of the relatives I know who were Muslim became Baha’is, but I have also know many other non-relatives who were Muslim who respected the Baha’is and Baha’u’llah. They are not all fanatic, and there are numerous stories of courage in Iran where Muslims step up to defend the Baha’is against their own Mullahs, but they risk much in doing so, for the hatred of the fanatics is then turned upon them. It is like speaking up against the Inquisition while it is going on.

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MartinJordan said:
You said millions of Muslims acknowledge your prophet. So where are these Muslims? Sunnis and Shiites are Muslims.

MJ
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No I didn’t, I said that even Muhammad evidenced the pre-existent “I am” in His Prophethood, just as Zoroaster, Krishna and Jesus did.

“I am the Way…” Is not exclusive to Jesus

Do you follow?

.
 
Matthew 24:5 New International Version
For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

New Living Translation
for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many.

English Standard Version
For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray.

New American Standard Bible
"For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many.

King James Bible
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many.

International Standard Version
because many will come in my name and say, ‘I’m the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many people.

NET Bible
For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will mislead many.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“For many will come in my name, and they will say. ‘I AM THE LIVING GOD, The Messiah’, and they will deceive many.”

GOD’S WORD® Translation
Many will come using my name. They will say, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they will deceive many people.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and shall deceive many.

American King James Version
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

American Standard Version
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.

Darby Bible Translation
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they shall mislead many.

English Revised Version
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray.

Webster’s Bible Translation
For many will come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and will deceive many.

Weymouth New Testament
"for many will come assuming my name and saying ‘I am the Christ;’ and they will mislead many.

World English Bible
For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will lead many astray.

Young’s Literal Translation
for many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they shall lead many astray,
 
MartinJordan said:
So you can’t name one. Thank you.

MJ
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Martin,
. I don’t know if you fully understand the consequences which typically befall those who defend the Baha’is publicly in much of the Muslim world. One example is the “only” Iranian to win the Nobel Prize, a civil rights attorney from Iran. She has attempted to represent 7 Baha’is imprisoned 5 years ago solely because of their belief in Baha’u’llah and refusing to recant their Faith in him. One of these seven is the sister of a friend of mine.

Shirin Ebadi (Persian: شيرين عبادى‎ Širin Ebādi; born 21 June 1947) is an Iranian lawyer, a former judge and human rights activist and founder of Defenders of Human Rights Center in Iran. On 10 October 2003, Ebadi was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for her significant and pioneering efforts for democracy and human rights, especially women’s, children’s, and refugee rights. She was the first ever Iranian to receive the prize.
In 2009, Ebadi’s award was allegedly confiscated by Iranian authorities, though this was later denied by the Iranian government.[3] If true, she would be the first person in the history of the Nobel Prize whose award has been forcibly seized by state authorities.[4]
Ebadi lived in Tehran, but she has been in exile in the UK since June 2009 due to the increase in persecution of Iranian citizens who are critical of the current regime.[5] In 2004, she was listed by Forbes magazine as one of the “100 most powerful women in the world”.[6] She is also included in a published list of the “100 most influential women of all time.”[7]

In light of the above, please consider question (which has been answered)
.
 
daler said:
Martin,
. I don’t know if you fully understand the consequences which typically befall those who defend the Baha’is publicly in much of the Muslim world. One example is the “only” Iranian to win the Nobel Prize, a civil rights attorney from Iran. She has attempted to represent 7 Baha’is imprisoned 5 years ago solely because of their belief in Baha’u’llah and refusing to recant their Faith in him. One of these seven is the sister of a friend of mine.

Shirin Ebadi (Persian: شيرين عبادى‎ Širin Ebādi; born 21 June 1947) is an Iranian lawyer, a former judge and human rights activist and founder of Defenders of Human Rights Center in Iran. On 10 October 2003, Ebadi was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for her significant and pioneering efforts for democracy and human rights, especially women’s, children’s, and refugee rights. She was the first ever Iranian to receive the prize.
In 2009, Ebadi’s award was allegedly confiscated by Iranian authorities, though this was later denied by the Iranian government.[3] If true, she would be the first person in the history of the Nobel Prize whose award has been forcibly seized by state authorities.[4]
Ebadi lived in Tehran, but she has been in exile in the UK since June 2009 due to the increase in persecution of Iranian citizens who are critical of the current regime.[5] In 2004, she was listed by Forbes magazine as one of the “100 most powerful women in the world”.[6] She is also included in a published list of the “100 most influential women of all time.”[7]

In light of the above, please consider question (which has been answered)
.
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So Ebadi was a Muslim who decided to follow the Bahai Faith and it’s prophet OR defending human dignity?

Catholics are also defending human rights every day, every minute, in many countries. That’s why we also suffer. However, that is not what this thread is about.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
Oh dear. 🤷

MJ
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…“there are millions of Muslims who do” believe that Muhammad is the eternal “I am,” pre-existent and in union with the Eternal Logos…

I never said that there are millions who praise Baha’u’llah.

That dialogue was about the “I am”

🤷

.
 
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