Muslims4Lent

[Per_Crucem]

Not really, because “at that point in human history” there were NO belief systems because there were NO humans to have a belief system, true or false.

I was referring to after the creation of Adam and Eve and prior to the Fall.

 

[Thorolfr]

Or in other words of demonic origins. I discount that idea based on the Church not declaring it as such. The options seem to be-
-From God- which runs counter to Church teaching
-From a demonic source- again counter to Church teaching
-From a person other than Muhammad- which the other poster can’t actually claim because this would make Muhammad a liar, and which I discount due to the historical record and tradition around the Quran and Muhammad
-From Muhammad- for a dishonest reason- possible
-From Muhammad- for an honest but mistaken reason- possible
-From Muhammad- as a result of some sort of mental issue- possible, but in my opinion not likely

Bottom line- Muhammad created the Quran either because a) he had some sort of mental issue b) for a dishonest intent (aka “take over the world” evil supervillain laugh) c) for an honest intent (aka make the world a better place, correct what he thought were flaws in Judaism and Christianity, thought he was “on a mission from God”).

How does any person who thinks that he/she is receiving a revelation know that it is from God or a god or is not just in their head? How did any of the Jewish prophets know that they were really receiving revelations from God and whys should we nowadays believe that they really did? How about all the mystics, including Catholic mystics, who claim to have received some sort of private revelation or vision know that this was not just from their own imagination and why should we believe them?

 

[Tom_Baum]

I was referring to after the creation of Adam and Eve and prior to the Fall.

And I was referring to what God said concerning ALL of humanity, “Let Us make man (humanity) in Our Image and…”.

This was said about “man” before the first “man” ever was.

God did not say that only those who believed in God were going to be made in God’s Image but that ALL were going to be made in God’s Image.

We are either ALL made in “God’s Image and…”, or none of us are.

It is either one or the other, there is no “just some”.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

How does any person who thinks that he/she is receiving a revelation know that it is from God or a god or is not just in their head? How did any of the Jewish prophets know that they were really receiving revelations from God and whys should we nowadays believe that they really did? How about all the mystics, including Catholic mystics, who claim to have received some sort of private revelation or vision know that this was not just from their own imagination and why should we believe them?

No clue, but since my position isn’t somehow invalidated by me not being able to answer your questions I don’t see how they are relevant. As a Catholic I have the luxury of accepting the teachings of the Church on who or who is not a Prophet and which revelations are from God.

 

[Servant19]

How does any person who thinks that he/she is receiving a revelation know that it is from God or a god or is not just in their head? How did any of the Jewish prophets know that they were really receiving revelations from God and whys should we nowadays believe that they really did? How about all the mystics, including Catholic mystics, who claim to have received some sort of private revelation or vision know that this was not just from their own imagination and why should we believe them?

Very good question. The basis by which we accept or not accept someone as a Prophet is the cornerstone of everyone’s spiritual existence.

Independent investigation of truth is a must for all humans before God. He gave us an intellect for a reason, and honesty of heart when discerning the truth from falsehood.

.

 

[Mystophilus]

-From a demonic source- again counter to Church teaching

Actually, no:

"841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
…]

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair."

 

[Servant19]

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair."

So may I ask, what is “serving the Creator” as opposed to “serving the creature”?

.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

No clue, but since my position isn’t somehow invalidated by me not being able to answer your questions I don’t see how they are relevant. As a Catholic I have the luxury of accepting the teachings of the Church on who or who is not a Prophet and which revelations are from God.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Actually, no:

"841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
…]

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair."

And if the Church thought that Islam was the direct result of demonic influence it wouldn’t have it mentioned in that portion of the CCC and wouldn’t have departments and agencies established to dialogue with it. The Quran having a demonic source and/or Muhammad being under direct demonic influence would place Islam in the category of the occult which is treated rather differently by the Church than man-made religions.

 

[Servant19]

I find it fascinating that God would allow over 1 billion of His precious hearts (all of which were brought forth by Him and were designed to return to Him) to worship Him 5 times a day yet still be in incorrect relationship with Him…all because a man made up (either intentionally or unintentionally) some words as a form of guidance for mankind.

.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I find it fascinating that God would allow over 1 billion of His precious hearts (all of which were brought forth by Him and were designed to return to Him) to worship Him 5 times a day yet still be in incorrect relationship with Him…all because a man made up (either intentionally or unintentionally) some words as a form of guidance for mankind.

.

That’s because it’s the relationship part and not the how correct it is part that matters. In fact, there is only one person who can accurately claim to have a perfect and completely correct relationship with God.

 

[Servant19]

That’s because it’s the relationship part and not the how correct it is part that matters. In fact, there is only one person who can accurately claim to have a perfect and completely correct relationship with God.

I am assuming you are referring to Jesus here? How do you know this as fact, oldcatholicguy?

.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I am assuming you are referring to Jesus here? How do you know this as fact, oldcatholicguy?

.

-I’m actually referring to the Holy Mother.
-Short answer- faith; long answer- rather long discussion that starts with the question of “why do I exist?” and uses human reason to go all the way back to the assumed truth- God exists (or in other words the short answer).

 

[Servant19]

-I’m actually referring to the Holy Mother.
-Short answer- faith; long answer- rather long discussion that starts with the question of “why do I exist?” and uses human reason to go all the way back to the assumed truth- God exists (or in other words the short answer).

Ok thanks

.

 

[SteveVH]

I am assuming you are referring to Jesus here? How do you know this as fact, oldcatholicguy?

Hi, Servant. Its been awhile.

Why do you require one to know something as fact when you do not hold yourself to the same standard? Do you know, for a fact, that Muhammad is a true prophet?

We are talking about matters that come down to faith. In the case of Jesus this faith is informed by our reason through the witness of those who went before us, namely the Apostles who were witnesses to Jesus’ life and resurrection. We believe they are credible witnesses and what they have related to us is that Jesus was without sin. We believe it because we believe he is the Son of the living God.

I don’t know for a fact that you are a Baha’i. But I believe you.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Servant19]

Hi, Servant. Its been awhile.

Why do you require one to know something as fact when you do not hold yourself to the same standard? Do you know, for a fact, that Muhammad is a true prophet?

We are talking about matters that come down to faith. In the case of Jesus this faith is informed by our reason through the witness of those who went before us, namely the Apostles who were witnesses to Jesus’ life and resurrection. We believe they are credible witnesses and what they have related to us is that Jesus was without sin. We believe it because we believe he is the Son of the living God.

I don’t know for a fact that you are a Baha’i. But I believe you.

Peace.

Steve

Hi Steve, hope all is well

I guess from one perspective, we have no factual knowledge about anything, in an absolute sense.

From that however, strong beliefs arise as a result of repeatable experience and empirical evidence gained through our senses and our intellect (which incorporates reason and rational logic)

I believe it is reasonable to state that Jesus was a Manifestation of God/Major Prophet/Avatar/God Incarnate, yes, for reasons of reliable witness of the Apostles, and their undeniable evidence that He was their Lord.

The problem is that the same “faith” is not given to Muhammad’s witnesses. Why?

Muhammad was the cause of the first inter-racial marriage in Arabia, He was the cause of the biggest scientific revolution in history, He brought warring Arab tribes to work collaboratively. He’s not a prophet because He wrote that Jesus is not God? That Jesus is not dead but alive? Because He married more than one wife?

The perspective given by Christians is unfair I feel, because Christianity denies that Jesus did similar things to standards of Judaism.

God bless you brother

.

 

[Per_Crucem]

The problem is that the same “faith” is not given to Muhammad’s witnesses. Why?

Because the only witness to Muhammad is Muhammad.

 

[Servant19]

Because the only witness to Muhammad is Muhammad.

You can’t have studied Islamic history my friend

God bless you!

.

 

[Mystophilus]

The Quran having a demonic source and/or Muhammad being under direct demonic influence would place Islam in the category of the occult which is treated rather differently by the Church than man-made religions.

You can argue that one with them: it’s your church’s catechism which identifies it as the product of deception by the Evil One.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

You can argue that one with them: it’s your church’s catechism which identifies it as the product of deception by the Evil One.

No, it’s your interpretation of what my faith teaches which identifies it as the product of demonic influence. If we use the standard you are using in interpreting the CCC we end up with Henry 8 and Luther both being under demonic influence.