Agreed.From my cursory investiagtion, it seems that only in the Hadith is apostasy explicitly punishable by death.
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”
I would point out that forum rules state that “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice” and that “It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs”.I think that was just a stolen line to help break in Islam in the early years.
Judaism also rejects many Christian beliefs, i.e. practically every one concerning Jesus of Nazareth, as well as a few about C1st Judaism. That does not stop Christianity and Judaism from being related.Muslims deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Muslims claim that Jews and Christians have corrupted the Bible. Muslims claim that Jesus was not crucified on the Cross, it was someone else which means that the resurrection which is the cornerstone of what we believe as Christians is a lie. Where in the world can anyone claim that the two faiths are similar or have a lot in common? You can’t. Muslims also deny the trinity and accuse us of worshiping three Gods.
I would also point out that forum rules state that “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice” and that “It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs”.The only similarity is that Mohammed took some Nestorian heretical ideas and mixed them with some Jewish and Zoroastrian ideas to come up with Islam.
First of all, I didn’t say anything that wasn’t charitable. I pointed out that there are significant differences between Islam and Christianity. Likewise the discussion here is about Muslims4 lent not Judiasm. There is much more in common between Judiasm and Christianity in that they both view every man as a unique creation of God that deserves respect and has inherit dignity. Islam does not teach this and there are hugh differences between Sharia law and Judeo/Christian foundation for our own legal system. Pointing out differences and not glossing over them need to be done to have a healthy discussion about religion. Making statement that make the faith “equal” or equivalent is dishonest and a false charity to begin with. BTW, both Judiasm and Christianity accept the OT as is unlike Islam which claims Judiasm and Christianity have corrupted the Bible.Judaism also rejects many Christian beliefs, i.e. practically every one concerning Jesus of Nazareth, as well as a few about C1st Judaism. That does not stop Christianity and Judaism from being related.
The connection with Islam is similar, merely in the opposite temporal direction.
I would also point out that forum rules state that “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice” and that “It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs”.
No one here questioned anyone’s sincerity of beliefs in any religion. That applies to other posters, not to the idea that we can discuss the differences of religion or what would have influenced Mohammed to begin with, outside the claim it was an angelI would point out that forum rules state that “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice” and that “It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs”.
Were I a Muslim, I would be deeply offended by that characterisation of how Islam came about, not to mention the representation of Muhammad’s character.First of all, I didn’t say anything that wasn’t charitable.
That is true only if Muhammad and the other founding figures of Islam were not individuals. I believe that I have seen the rule about questioning others’ sincerity applied to historical figures.No one here questioned anyone’s sincerity of beliefs in any religion. That applies to other posters, not to the idea that we can discuss the differences of religion or what would have influenced Mohammed to begin with, outside the claim it was an angel
Well, Catholic Answers does sell Robert Spencer’s books and he goes into great length and documentation about the founder of that religion. When people bring up this kind of argument about charitiy like you have, it seems to be a way to shut down the converstation which is suppose to be about Muslims 4 lent. I actually haven’t said anything pro or con or even questioned the sincerity of those behind it. I responded to an inaccurate remark that Islam and Christianity have “lots” in common because it isn’t true at all. Except for monotheism and roots traced to Abraham and the virgin birth, Islam and Christianity do not have much in common at all. I didn’t call any Muslims 4 lent names, I didn’t call Mohammed any names but what the Catholic Church does consider him, a false prophet because the Catholic Church does not accept his visions as truth.That is true only if Muhammad and the other founding figures of Islam were not individuals. I believe that I have seen the rule about questioning others’ sincerity applied to historical figures.
I think that this is a good gesture on the part of these Muslims.From the Independent, Muslims on social media are taking up self-denial for Lent as a deliberately ecumenical act.
Note to self: (try to) fast during Ramadan this year.
As I said in the other branch of the thread, I would expect a Muslim to find “Mohammed took some Nestorian heretical ideas and mixed them with some Jewish and Zoroastrian ideas to come up with Islam” offensive to the Prophet (given how it characterizes his sincerity by totally contradicting what he says about the origin of his message), in much the same way that I would expect a Lutheran to find disparagement of Luther’s sincerity offensive, or a Catholic to find disparagements of Mary’s sincerity offensive.When people bring up this kind of argument about charitiy like you have, it seems to be a way to shut down the converstation which is suppose to be about Muslims 4 lent. I actually haven’t said anything pro or con or even questioned the sincerity of those behind it. I responded to an inaccurate remark that Islam and Christianity have “lots” in common because it isn’t true at all.
If you have read any of Robert Spencer’s books which are sold and promoted by Catholic Answers, that is the conclusion he comes to. I’m not sure how Mohammed would be offended because he isn’t here to be offended since he is dead.As I said in the other branch of the thread, I would expect a Muslim to find “Mohammed took some Nestorian heretical ideas and mixed them with some Jewish and Zoroastrian ideas to come up with Islam” offensive to the Prophet (given how it characterizes his sincerity by totally contradicting what he says about the origin of his message), in much the same way that I would expect a Lutheran to find disparagement of Luther’s sincerity offensive, or a Catholic to find disparagements of Mary’s sincerity offensive.
Likewise, Zachary’s comment in this branch that “they claim to believe in the God of Abraham, but I think that was just a stolen line to help break in Islam in the early years” questions the sincerity of the early Muslims’ belief that Allah is God of Abraham.
As for this being about Muslims4Lent, I would not say that it is really off topic, since that gesture is overtly ecumenical and representations of one faith by members of another do have a distinct impact upon interfaith relations. I would hope that it is possible for people of goodwill to discuss faith systems in which they themselves do not believe without needing to describe those faith systems as deliberate lies.
Apart from the fact that I cannot remember any point at which Jesus said that you can stop loving others when they die, quite a few Catholics were offended by an artist’s use of a statuette of Mary to fill a condom: there is not only the issue of the offence to the person disparaged, but also the issue of the offence to anyone who venerates them.I’m not sure how Mohammed would be offended because he isn’t here to be offended since he is dead.
I doubt their sincerity, especially of the creators of IslamLikewise, Zachary’s comment in this branch that “they claim to believe in the God of Abraham, but I think that was just a stolen line to help break in Islam in the early years” questions the sincerity of the early Muslims’ belief that Allah is God of Abraham.
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Is there? Jews reject Jesus while muslims consider him a prophet so despite maybe the closer following of the OT by judaism I think the rejection outright of Jesus makes Islam more similar to christianity given how Jesus is what we are based on. The greater reverence for Jesus (which judaism has none) alone would make for more common ground between groups then the issue of the old testament. Our legal system in America is derived from english system of common law that places emphasis on precedent and jury decisions…Its not really based on ancient jewish law which if I’m not mistaken also had religious courts and blasphemy laws.First of all, I didn’t say anything that wasn’t charitable. I pointed out that there are significant differences between Islam and Christianity. Likewise the discussion here is about Muslims4 lent not Judiasm. There is much more in common between Judiasm and Christianity in that they both view every man as a unique creation of God that deserves respect and has inherit dignity. Islam does not teach this and there are hugh differences between Sharia law and Judeo/Christian foundation for our own legal system. Pointing out differences and not glossing over them need to be done to have a healthy discussion about religion. Making statement that make the faith “equal” or equivalent is dishonest and a false charity to begin with. BTW, both Judiasm and Christianity accept the OT as is unlike Islam which claims Judiasm and Christianity have corrupted the Bible.
Well if there is such great reverence for Jesus in Islam, I highly doubt we would be seeing the outright persecution in all Muslim countries against Christians like what currently is happening now. It’s a nice sentiment but it isn’t based in reality. If that is reverence, I think I will pass.Is there? Jews reject Jesus while muslims consider him a prophet so despite maybe the closer following of the OT by judaism I think the rejection outright of Jesus makes Islam more similar to christianity given how Jesus is what we are based on. The greater reverence for Jesus (which judaism has none) alone would make for more common ground between groups then the issue of the old testament. Our legal system in America is derived from english system of common law that places emphasis on precedent and jury decisions…Its not really based on ancient jewish law which if I’m not mistaken also had religious courts and blasphemy laws.
Look, if a Muslim reader expects a Catholic poster to put forth the Islamic teachings and theology of Muhammad and the source of the Quran as fact than that Muslim reader isn’t ready for an interfaith dialogue. Catholic posters are going to post Catholic thought on Muhammad and the origins of Islam. Said Catholic thought will not center around the faith being divinely inspired (since according to the Church it is not) and won’t center around Muhammad receiving the Quran from an angel (see above reason) or that he was a Prophet (since according to the Church he was not). That means he made it up. He could have done so with a good intent or a bad intent, but the him making it up part is rather necessary for Catholic thought on the creation of Islam.As I said in the other branch of the thread, I would expect a Muslim to find “Mohammed took some Nestorian heretical ideas and mixed them with some Jewish and Zoroastrian ideas to come up with Islam” offensive to the Prophet (given how it characterizes his sincerity by totally contradicting what he says about the origin of his message), in much the same way that I would expect a Lutheran to find disparagement of Luther’s sincerity offensive, or a Catholic to find disparagements of Mary’s sincerity offensive.
Likewise, Zachary’s comment in this branch that “they claim to believe in the God of Abraham, but I think that was just a stolen line to help break in Islam in the early years” questions the sincerity of the early Muslims’ belief that Allah is God of Abraham.
As for this being about Muslims4Lent, I would not say that it is really off topic, since that gesture is overtly ecumenical and representations of one faith by members of another do have a distinct impact upon interfaith relations. I would hope that it is possible for people of goodwill to discuss faith systems in which they themselves do not believe without needing to describe those faith systems as deliberate lies.