Muslims4Lent

[oldcatholicguy]

I doubt their sincerity, especially of the creators of Islam

And since the Quran says it’s cool to lie to Christians, I take any goodwill gesture with a few grains of salt.

This lying to Christians, what criteria is placed upon the lying and which Islamic faith uses it?

 

[Mystophilus]

Catholic posters are going to post Catholic thought on Muhammad and the origins of Islam. Said Catholic thought will not center around the faith being divinely inspired (since according to the Church it is not) and won’t center around Muhammad receiving the Quran from an angel (see above reason) or that he was a Prophet (since according to the Church he was not). That means he made it up.

Er, not logically, no: when someone makes a claim and you believe that the claim is inaccurate, there is no necessity to believe that the claim is dishonest, because other possibilities exist, particularly in the form of the person’s having been misled by his/her own fallibility or by some external agency.

 

[hasantas]

As I said in the other branch of the thread, I would expect a Muslim to find “Mohammed took some Nestorian heretical ideas and mixed them with some Jewish and Zoroastrian ideas to come up with Islam” offensive to the Prophet (given how it characterizes his sincerity by totally contradicting what he says about the origin of his message), in much the same way that I would expect a Lutheran to find disparagement of Luther’s sincerity offensive, or a Catholic to find disparagements of Mary’s sincerity offensive.

Likewise, Zachary’s comment in this branch that “they claim to believe in the God of Abraham, but I think that was just a stolen line to help break in Islam in the early years” questions the sincerity of the early Muslims’ belief that Allah is God of Abraham.

As for this being about Muslims4Lent, I would not say that it is really off topic, since that gesture is overtly ecumenical and representations of one faith by members of another do have a distinct impact upon interfaith relations. I would hope that it is possible for people of goodwill to discuss faith systems in which they themselves do not believe without needing to describe those faith systems as deliberate lies.

Islam is not founded on previous scriptures. If someone read Quran can see that. Yes Quran tell about Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah, Joseph and all prophets. But these parts are not taken from Torah or Bible. If Muslims do not believe in Quran and prophet Muhammed exactly they would never respect Jesus or any other prophet. Muslims have knowledge of divinity, prophethood, scripture, religion much more than Jews and Christians. So Muslims can know what Jews and Christians do some mistakes.

Perhaps you do not know that we all Muslims, Christians and Jews believe in and worship same God. And also Muslims know that Christians have some wrong thoughts about attributes of God. Christians think that God is three people in one person. Muslims believe in that God is one person in one personality. God have many manifestations and acts and one of them is prophethood of Jesus. But Christians think that God did Jesus’s work by Himself by being incarnation. But also Christians accept that that issue is not easy and obvious to understand and need many illustrations. And also there are no noticeable proofs and statements for that in Gospels. Only there are some quibble verses. But do not forget that these kinds of statements are belong to writers but not directly from Jesus.

 

[Mystophilus]

And also Muslims know that Christians have some wrong thoughts about attributes of God.

Muslims believe that Christians have some wrong ideas about God, while Christians believe that Muslims have some wrong ideas about God (and Jews probably believe that we both have some wrong ideas about God).

incarnation …] And also there are no noticeable proofs and statements for that in Gospels

I think that you might have confused Incarnation and Trinity, there: while the Gospels do not simply refer to the Trinity, they do simply refer to the Incarnation (John 1:1+14, John 10:30, John 17:21).

 

[DebChris]

I’m sure their families are aware of their actions.
Ramadan observance involves more than fasting from food and water from dawn and until dusk. It includes fasting from strife as well so that a simple argument between spouses breaks the fast. This is something that I learned from Muslims themselves.
It is very similar to what the scriptures tell us. God does not want the type of fasting that leads to quarreling.
When I lived in the Middle East, even non-Muslims were required to observe Ramadan, at least publicly. I happened to work in a country where I enjoyed religious freedom and was able to talk to my Muslim friends about similarities between our two faiths and practices without any problems.
With the growing threat of ISIS, Muslims are showing their solidarity with persecuted Christians, even to displaying the Nun symbol as the Danes wore the Star of David during WWII.
Egyptian Muslims have protected Coptic Christians while they worshiped and Coptic Christians have in turn protected Egyptian Muslims during the strife that is ongoing in that country.
We do need to continue in pray for peace in the troubled nations of the Middle East.

 

[SjMelnychuk]

Well, it’s nice to know how little you think of us. I’m feelin’ the love already.

There is much ignorance that non-Muslims may have with regards to the Muslim religion. Please forgive the ignorance as I assume, people sometimes wrongly equate the political extremists muslim’s who are currently killing Christians and beating their kids into submission. I know that these radicals are few but there’s such a large Muslim population that a few look really big!

I find it interesting that there’s a movement called Muslims for Lent.

I was thinking about the Muslim practice of Ramadan which is a 40 day fasting period similar too but not exactly the same as Lent but Lent is also a 40 days of fasting, prayer, and alms giving… there are probably similarities here and it would seem to me that these Muslims participating in Lent do so not believing that participating in Lent would be against Muslim practice. In fact, Lent may very well be encouraged by many Muslims. It may be the fact that, I know some Muslims who will say that the Muslim faith and Christian faith are the same, that Christians who follow the Christian faith are being Muslims essentially… all the more to believe this by using Lent as an example.

I have sometimes thought of fasting during Ramadan and praying for the Muslim community during that time.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

Apparently there is a hash tag going around on Twitter called #muslimsforlent. I have no personal opinion on this as I do not wish to open up debate on who can observe Lenten disciplines. I do want to express my concern that this pseudo adoption of “giving up things for Lent” by muslims could cause strife within muslim families who might wrongly assume that a young muslim taking part in this show of solidarity might be lured away from their muslim faith. The young person might understand that what they are doing is merely symbolic but their parents might not “get it” and even in America there are horrific stories of honor killings (specifically by fathers of their daughters) carried out to prevent a child from converting to christianity.

The sentiment that these young muslims are expressing in their symbolic sharing of the lenten season with christians is very admirable and filled with great love but it is not worth the misunderstandings that might occur.

What we christians would like from all non-christians is prayers to God for peace and genuine compassion and understanding between all peoples-regardless of their faith.

Pray for an end to the violence that is taking the lives of innocents.

Pray for the end of abortion which takes the unborn innocents.

Pray for the rejection of all forms of immorality, which seeks to ruin young lives and endanger souls.

Love one another and defend those who cannot defend themselves.

Live lives of virtue that will inspire others to do likewise.

Most important be true to yourselves and steadfast in your faith, trusting in God always and in all things.

Thank you and may you continue to be blessed.

Hello elsker,

I fully agree that parents of many backgrounds are prone to being a bad parent, this includes Muslims.Parents from all backrounds can over react to situations, including violent overreactions. IMO The Judeo-Islamic way for example, the Judeo Christian way teaches us that the three religions of Abraham have much in common. I pray that any member Islam, Judaism and Christianity. One of the reasons I alawys try and make sure Jews and Muslims are viewed in a positive fashion, is truthfully because of the words of Christ himself, as well as the leadership of modern day Catholics such as Pope Francis,

*Three of the world’s major religions – the monotheist traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam – were all born in the Middle East and are all inextricably linked to one another. Christianity was born from within the Jewish tradition, and Islam developed from both Christianity and Judaism.

While there have been differences among these religions, there was a rich cultural interchange between Jews, Christians, and Muslims that took place in Islamic Spain and other places over centuries*

pbs.org/wgbh/globalconnections/mideast/themes/religion/index.html?pagewanted=all

So we hear “horrific” stories from Christians, Jews, and Muslims. But the horror is not limited to say only, Jews, or only Christians. Theres even a good argument(from both a religious and non religious perspective) to be made that one cant be a member of any of the religions of Abraham if they express intolerant views of others.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

Well, it’s nice to know how little you think of us. I’m feelin’ the love already.

Drac16,

I hear what your saying, one of the things the OP included in his message was,

The young person might understand that what they are doing is merely symbolic but their parents might not “get it” and even in America there are horrific stories of honor killings (specifically by fathers of their daughters) carried out to prevent a child from converting to Christianity.

I fully understand what your thinking here Drac 16. Your probably thinking, oh boy, this isnt right whats being said above, its even offensive to suggest the above, as it makes Muslims like bad, and I feel for you. Truth be told, and I’m interested in Elskers views on Muslims in general. IMO Islam is a beautiful religion and I think Muslims are beautiful people, Muslims played a big role for example, in helping to defeat the Axis powers during WW2.

Not all humans think alike, now there some very well meaning folks whom might not know a Muslim in real life, or its just that, some folks arent aware of the full message of the Quran. I feel that Anti Catholics will pick out a few messages from the Bible and distort there meaning, just as Anti Muslims will pick out a few verses from the Quran and distort its meaning. I would like to add that this post, and my prior post is not meant to be overly critical of the OP, rather, I’m providing some additional information here that can hopefully improve your view of fellow members of the 3 religions of Abraham. Truth be told, some Muslims are not big fans of Christianity, some Christians are not big fans of Muslims, but I fully believe that we Muslims, Jews, and Christians can learn from each other to make the world a better place.

Many “older” Muslims are also really great, awesome, loving people, Muslims would give you the shirt off of their back, thats the Muslim way after all, which is to help your fellow man, Muslim or non Muslim.

 

[HolyCrusader007]

Noble sentiments to be commended!

Does the Qur’an actually encourage fathers to kill their children if the latter intend to convert?

Hi Meltzer,

In the 20+ times Apostasy is mentioned in the Quran, not in one occasion is the death penalty proscribed for those who leave Islam. Influential Muslim scholars such as the late SA Rahmen(Sunni Muslim from Pakistan) and the late Hussein Montizeri(Shia Muslim from Iran)) suggested that punishment for apostasy is to be judged during afterlife.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Er, not logically, no: when someone makes a claim and you believe that the claim is inaccurate, there is no necessity to believe that the claim is dishonest, because other possibilities exist, particularly in the form of the person’s having been misled by his/her own fallibility or by some external agency.

Where is the dishonesty of Muhammad’s actions in this claim- “Mohammed took some Nestorian heretical ideas and mixed them with some Jewish and Zoroastrian ideas to come up with Islam.”?

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I think it’s a beautiful thing they’re doing. They are symbolically linking themselves to the despised “people of the cross”. I find that touching, particularly coming from a people with a faith so contrary to our own…and potentially placing themselves into an accused state of “apostasy”, simply by doing so.

I agree with you on this. I’m not a fan of Islam in any way but I appreciate the gesture.

 

[boar2roar]

Well if there is such great reverence for Jesus in Islam, I highly doubt we would be seeing the outright persecution in all Muslim countries against Christians like what currently is happening now. It’s a nice sentiment but it isn’t based in reality. If that is reverence, I think I will pass.

The same reason why protestants in England persecuted catholics? They are obviously not the same religion but Islam is theologically closer to Christianity given how Jews reject christ which always makes me confused when people throw around the term Judeo-Christian.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Judaism also rejects many Christian beliefs, i.e. practically every one concerning Jesus of Nazareth, as well as a few about C1st Judaism. That does not stop Christianity and Judaism from being related.

The connection with Islam is similar, merely in the opposite temporal direction.

I would also point out that forum rules state that “Catholics must be charitable in their discussions about non-Catholic belief and practice” and that “It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs”.

The BIG difference is that the Jews do not acknowledge Jesus at all, which is alluded to in the bible in that God’s Hand was at work with this, whereas islam speaks highly of Jesus but denies that He Is God-Incarnate which is the most basic of the most basic of beliefs in Christianity since without Jesus being God-Incarnate, Christianity simply ceases to be.

I would say that the connection between Christianity and islam is that islam says that Christianity is a lie.

I do not believe that the forum rules state that we should lie about our beliefs or that we should water down Christianity.

I believe that many will be surprised to find out that “God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof” and “That it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows”.

 

[Tom_Baum]

As I said in the other branch of the thread, I would expect a Muslim to find “Mohammed took some Nestorian heretical ideas and mixed them with some Jewish and Zoroastrian ideas to come up with Islam” offensive to the Prophet (given how it characterizes his sincerity by totally contradicting what he says about the origin of his message), in much the same way that I would expect a Lutheran to find disparagement of Luther’s sincerity offensive, or a Catholic to find disparagements of Mary’s sincerity offensive.

Likewise, Zachary’s comment in this branch that “they claim to believe in the God of Abraham, but I think that was just a stolen line to help break in Islam in the early years” questions the sincerity of the early Muslims’ belief that Allah is God of Abraham.

As for this being about Muslims4Lent, I would not say that it is really off topic, since that gesture is overtly ecumenical and representations of one faith by members of another do have a distinct impact upon interfaith relations. I would hope that it is possible for people of goodwill to discuss faith systems in which they themselves do not believe without needing to describe those faith systems as deliberate lies.

You do know that “Allah” is the generic word for God in Arabic, in that it means the same as God does in English, don’t you?

I do not know for a “fact” but I do not believe that “early Muslims’ belief” was that Yahweh Is God, do you know?

 

[Tom_Baum]

I think it’s a beautiful thing they’re doing. They are symbolically linking themselves to the despised “people of the cross”. I find that touching, particularly coming from a people with a faith so contrary to our own…and potentially placing themselves into an accused state of “apostasy”, simply by doing so.

Happy second anniversary and I agree with you.

I happen to believe that God looks past “religion/s” and looks at the person.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Is there? Jews reject Jesus while muslims consider him a prophet so despite maybe the closer following of the OT by judaism I think the rejection outright of Jesus makes Islam more similar to christianity given how Jesus is what we are based on. The greater reverence for Jesus (which judaism has none) alone would make for more common ground between groups then the issue of the old testament. Our legal system in America is derived from english system of common law that places emphasis on precedent and jury decisions…Its not really based on ancient jewish law which if I’m not mistaken also had religious courts and blasphemy laws.

Christianity is NOT based on Jesus being a prophet but is based on Jesus being GOD-INCARNATE, to say the least, this is a BIG difference.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Look, if a Muslim reader expects a Catholic poster to put forth the Islamic teachings and theology of Muhammad and the source of the Quran as fact than that Muslim reader isn’t ready for an interfaith dialogue. Catholic posters are going to post Catholic thought on Muhammad and the origins of Islam. Said Catholic thought will not center around the faith being divinely inspired (since according to the Church it is not) and won’t center around Muhammad receiving the Quran from an angel (see above reason) or that he was a Prophet (since according to the Church he was not). That means he made it up. He could have done so with a good intent or a bad intent, but the him making it up part is rather necessary for Catholic thought on the creation of Islam.

As far as, “but the him making it up part is rather necessary for Catholic thought on the creation of Islam.”

I disagree, whereas I do NOT believe that it was divinely inspired, I do believe that it was supernaturally inspired.

 

[Tom_Baum]

The same reason why protestants in England persecuted catholics? They are obviously not the same religion but Islam is theologically closer to Christianity given how Jews reject christ which always makes me confused when people throw around the term Judeo-Christian.

Why would the term “Judeo-Christian” confuse you when He Whom Christianity is based on was born a Jew, lived as a Jew and died a Jew?

 

[robwar]

Look, if a Muslim reader expects a Catholic poster to put forth the Islamic teachings and theology of Muhammad and the source of the Quran as fact than that Muslim reader isn’t ready for an interfaith dialogue. Catholic posters are going to post Catholic thought on Muhammad and the origins of Islam. Said Catholic thought will not center around the faith being divinely inspired (since according to the Church it is not) and won’t center around Muhammad receiving the Quran from an angel (see above reason) or that he was a Prophet (since according to the Church he was not). That means he made it up. He could have done so with a good intent or a bad intent, but the him making it up part is rather necessary for Catholic thought on the creation of Islam.

exactly, Thanks Old Catholic Guy!

 

[robwar]

The same reason why protestants in England persecuted catholics? They are obviously not the same religion but Islam is theologically closer to Christianity given how Jews reject christ which always makes me confused when people throw around the term Judeo-Christian.

Islam is in no way “theologically closer” to Christianity. Judeo-Christian legal system is based as its roots on the ten commandments. Islamic Sharia law is not. Judeo-Christian tradition recognizes the inherit worth of every living human. Sharia Law does not and that is why slavery is still prevalent in these countries. Persecuted Catholics in England under Henry the 8th and Elizabeth the 1st has nothing to do with this conversation.