Simply noting the problems.
But since you asked, I would rather have a spoken Mass than one with a Protestant or non-Catholic cantor.
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But since you asked, I would rather have a spoken Mass than one with a Protestant or non-Catholic cantor.
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LauraSings
Guest
I was a cantor for a couple of years before I was able to be received into the Church; however, my theology during those years was very much Catholic, and the hold-up was an irregular marriage.
I’m much more concerned whether your Director of Music is Catholic, since she is the one presenting the Faith, catechizing as it were, through music.
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Guitar
Guest
Porthos - thanks for that clarification.
Speaking purely from the musical direction viewpoint, perhaps “cronies” isn’t the fairest of words …
I do both paid and volunteer church music and when I have a paying job in unfamiliar territory, I take my “cronies” too - people I work with regularly who have appropriate technical standards and abilities and suitable personal demeanour.
Most aren’t Catholic (or believers of any stripe, actually) but I as the Catholic directing the group know that they understand the purpose of the music and the personal behaviour required. They follow my direction because they know that being the Catholic director is part of what I’m paid for. End result: competent, appropriate and appropriately-delivered music, even if the only Catholic in the group is me.
I will employ Catholic musicians who are “up to scratch” if I can but the ones I know are mostly unavailable when I need them (full-time symphony orchestra members and similar). In my own parish in volunteer circumstances I’ll put the time into a parishioner of lesser abilities (say someone who can’t sight-read at performance tempo) to compensate but for a paying job with limited prep time, the ability and attitude of a player is more important to the end result than their Catholicity or otherwise. It’s the end result that supports or sabotages the congregation’s ability to pray. A congregation can’t detect whether a competent musician is Catholic or not but they will be distracted by inadequate standards so if it’s a choice between the two for a professional job (which for me it usually is) I’ll take the non-Catholic.
So on the basis of that, I’d expect a new paid music director to employ colleagues at least at first till she gets to know “the lay of the land” and finds out whether there are any Catholics with the requisite abilities that she can eventually employ instead.
I agree with Laura - the director being Catholic is of more concern than whether or not the other musicians are.
Speaking purely from the musical direction viewpoint, perhaps “cronies” isn’t the fairest of words …
I do both paid and volunteer church music and when I have a paying job in unfamiliar territory, I take my “cronies” too - people I work with regularly who have appropriate technical standards and abilities and suitable personal demeanour.
Most aren’t Catholic (or believers of any stripe, actually) but I as the Catholic directing the group know that they understand the purpose of the music and the personal behaviour required. They follow my direction because they know that being the Catholic director is part of what I’m paid for. End result: competent, appropriate and appropriately-delivered music, even if the only Catholic in the group is me.
I will employ Catholic musicians who are “up to scratch” if I can but the ones I know are mostly unavailable when I need them (full-time symphony orchestra members and similar). In my own parish in volunteer circumstances I’ll put the time into a parishioner of lesser abilities (say someone who can’t sight-read at performance tempo) to compensate but for a paying job with limited prep time, the ability and attitude of a player is more important to the end result than their Catholicity or otherwise. It’s the end result that supports or sabotages the congregation’s ability to pray. A congregation can’t detect whether a competent musician is Catholic or not but they will be distracted by inadequate standards so if it’s a choice between the two for a professional job (which for me it usually is) I’ll take the non-Catholic.
So on the basis of that, I’d expect a new paid music director to employ colleagues at least at first till she gets to know “the lay of the land” and finds out whether there are any Catholics with the requisite abilities that she can eventually employ instead.
I agree with Laura - the director being Catholic is of more concern than whether or not the other musicians are.
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Sarabande
Guest
I agree with you there, Guitar. 
If there is to be music in the liturgy, especially when you are hiring people, I’d also rather hire the better musician who can lend itself more to the spiritual inspiration of the music rather than take the lesser talent who will make a dog’s breakfast out of it. Most certainly would I take a Catholic, though, if talent is about equal. If the the dog’s breakfast is all that can be offered, I’d rather not have music, but that is all for a different thread.
It is ideal to hire Catholic musicians (if they’re available) because they will more than likely know and understand the mass if they are experienced. But I’ve worked with many non-Catholic musicians for Catholic masses/weddings and many of them understood the goings on of the mass better than some Catholics who do attend church. Funny thing is, sometimes they can even pick up on something that is not being done correctly according to the rubrics before a Catholic would (especially the Anglican/Episcopal musicians that I’ve worked with).
I know Catholics who go to mass weekly, but still have no clue what a Psalm is and when it is chanted or recited, or the different parts of the liturgy and so on and so forth. Quite honestly, before I became involved in the music programs when I was in high school, I was like that as well. Being involved in the music program helped me become much stronger in the understanding of the liturgy. For those non-Catholics who frequently are hired to play their instruments at Catholic masses, they understand it much better as well.
Thing is, if what I experienced is truly the case in other parts of the country or the world, that is a very sad commentary on the average Catholic. So, again, as Porthos has mentioned, it definitely goes back to a deeper problem within and something needs to be done to rectify it. Question is how?
If there is to be music in the liturgy, especially when you are hiring people, I’d also rather hire the better musician who can lend itself more to the spiritual inspiration of the music rather than take the lesser talent who will make a dog’s breakfast out of it. Most certainly would I take a Catholic, though, if talent is about equal. If the the dog’s breakfast is all that can be offered, I’d rather not have music, but that is all for a different thread.
It is ideal to hire Catholic musicians (if they’re available) because they will more than likely know and understand the mass if they are experienced. But I’ve worked with many non-Catholic musicians for Catholic masses/weddings and many of them understood the goings on of the mass better than some Catholics who do attend church. Funny thing is, sometimes they can even pick up on something that is not being done correctly according to the rubrics before a Catholic would (especially the Anglican/Episcopal musicians that I’ve worked with).
I know Catholics who go to mass weekly, but still have no clue what a Psalm is and when it is chanted or recited, or the different parts of the liturgy and so on and so forth. Quite honestly, before I became involved in the music programs when I was in high school, I was like that as well. Being involved in the music program helped me become much stronger in the understanding of the liturgy. For those non-Catholics who frequently are hired to play their instruments at Catholic masses, they understand it much better as well.
Thing is, if what I experienced is truly the case in other parts of the country or the world, that is a very sad commentary on the average Catholic. So, again, as Porthos has mentioned, it definitely goes back to a deeper problem within and something needs to be done to rectify it. Question is how?
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Guitar
Guest
In my parish, we are all unpaid volunteers too and that’s the case for nearly every suburban parish I know. It’s mainly the cathedrals and higher-profile inner city churches that have paid music staff.
I do a reasonable bit of “freelancing” for special ceremonies and Masses outside the “parish” context - for example, a Mass for a Catholic hospital Board or a liturgy where different congregations of nuns from the same order come together in one of their school chapels or in a larger church somewhere. It’s for those services (and for weddings and funerals) that I am paid and I hire other musicians to make up whatever type of group is required.
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Sarabande
Guest
Actually, here in the states, as Guitar mentioned, most parishes have volunteers as well, with the exception of music directors/organists, although I do know some parishes have volunteer organists as well.
I cantor at a Cathedral and am paid there, which I realize is highly unusual for the average Catholic parish. The organist/music director is on salary, but the choir is all volunteer.
For weddings, funerals and other special masses, cantors and other musicians are usually “hired” here. That is when I usually work with non-Catholic musicians - or when I am hired to work at Protestant churches as a musician.
BTW Porthos - My mother and her family is from Ilo-Ilo.
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Cat
Guest
I don’t know of any parish in our city that pays cantors.
But it is possible that they will receive invitations from people who hear them sing to sing at various events (weddings, funerals, concerts, etc.) for which they will receive pay.
Kind of a “fringe benefit” of cantoring.
But it is possible that they will receive invitations from people who hear them sing to sing at various events (weddings, funerals, concerts, etc.) for which they will receive pay.
Kind of a “fringe benefit” of cantoring.
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thann
Guest
I don’t know the official answer to the OP’s question, whether a cantor must be Catholic. In my opinion, for an occasional event (wedding, funeral), a trained and properly disposed non-Catholic is acceptable, but I think that all persons who regularly serve in a ministry at Mass (EMHC, lector, music director, cantor, etc.) should be Catholic.
Having a non-Catholic in such a position is potentially problematic, because people in these ministerial positions are representatives of the Catholic Church.
Case in point: The music director at my parish is Lutheran, and she has many times made comments to choir members that she doesn’t agree with this or that Church teaching. The latest was at a choir rehearsal before Christmas where she vehemently said, “I don’t believe all that Mary stuff. I know that Mary and Joseph had sex, AND that they had other children.”
Several choir members nodded their heads in agreement, for after all, she is a “person in authority.”
As I said, I don’t know the Church’s official stance on this issue, but having a non-Catholic cantor has the *potential *to cause scandal.
'thann
Having a non-Catholic in such a position is potentially problematic, because people in these ministerial positions are representatives of the Catholic Church.
Case in point: The music director at my parish is Lutheran, and she has many times made comments to choir members that she doesn’t agree with this or that Church teaching. The latest was at a choir rehearsal before Christmas where she vehemently said, “I don’t believe all that Mary stuff. I know that Mary and Joseph had sex, AND that they had other children.”
Several choir members nodded their heads in agreement, for after all, she is a “person in authority.”
As I said, I don’t know the Church’s official stance on this issue, but having a non-Catholic cantor has the *potential *to cause scandal.
'thann
Moreover, that authority can cause even more watering down of the faith. I’d like to see a Protestant cantor sing Ave Verum Corpus, or Salve Regina.
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Phemie
Guest
I’d like to see a Catholic under 50 within 1000 miles of me that can sing those. I know what Salve Regina is but I’ve never heard Ave Verum Corpus.
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Guitar
Guest
This is an instance of unprofessional behaviour by an individual. I would expect an employment contract (or equivalent documentation) for a music position to include a clause requiring you to uphold or at least not contradict the views of the church that employs you. Same as for non-Catholic school teachers and so forth. Even without such documentation, we are always on the lookout whilst in Protestant churches for anything in the music chosen that might be at odds with their beliefs. It’s just common courtesy.
No musician I employ would publicly express beliefs contrary to those of their employer, nor would they be re-employed if they did. I am surprised that your director feels free to do so.
I’ve had a general chat with one of my violinists about his atheism but it was over a pint at the pub and he is 100% respectful at all times whilst in church. I also had a Protestant musician once who had problems with singing a Marian piece but she made a point of ringing me at home to discuss it rather than bringing it up in front of the group. That’s just professional behavior that I expect as normal from my players and I’d expect it even more from a permanent director.
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SeekerJen
Guest
I’ll add another to the list:
- Having read some of the often scathing complaints lodged against cantors on these boards in the past, I can understand why someone considering that ministry would stop, think twice (or more) and say “Yeah, I’m not willing to subject myself to that.” Heck, I’ve been canting for 8 years and some of the comments make ME want to quit.
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SeekerJen
Guest
If they’re volunteering to sing music, then why wouldn’t they do it? I’ve heard Protestants sing the Ave Maria and not bat an eye at what they’re singing. We’ve got two Protestants (a Methodist and a Lutheran) in my parish’s choir, and neither has balked at singing the Ave Verum Corpus or Salve Regina (or Pange Lingua, or Exsultet, or Litany of the Saints…).
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Phemie
Guest
It’s not rare to hear Ave Maria at Protestant weddings.
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Guitar
Guest
I hear you, sister.
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Guitar
Guest
Exactly - a volunteer, when you think about it, is probably more likely to be willing to do it because a volunteer serving another denomination is clearly there by choice rather than say taking the gig to pay the bills but inwardly chafing at the difference in beliefs.
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Phemie
Guest
I agree. Several years ago we lost out on an organist because when a new parishioner approached our organist (a volunteer) and offered her services to play she was told her services weren’t needed. This in spite of the fact that we had nobody to play at the anticipated Mass or Christmas Day or Easter Sunday Masses. Think the regular organist felt threatened just a little??? Anyway, this woman didn’t think twice about turning around and going to the Anglican Church where her gift was greatly appreciated and where she doesn’t seem to have much problem with the doctrine.
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Sarabande
Guest
I don’t know if I’m within 1000 miles of you, but I’m way under 50, a Catholic and I can sing a few different settings (either as chant, solo or in a choir) of a Salve Regina, Ave Verum Corpus and various others. I’m not the only one either. My husband and many other Catholic friends/colleagues can as well. We’re mostly all in our 20s and early 30s. But perhaps our numbers are skewed because we’re either musicians or lovers of sacred music.
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Sarabande
Guest
Yeah… I sing it just as often at Protestant weddings as I do for Catholic ones. I actually just sang an Ave Maria for Christmas Eve service at a Luthern service that I was hired to sing at. Last year, the director was asked why he didn’t do an Ave Maria for Christmas. So, with the blessing of the pastor, this year he did, along with all other music for the service as being basically “Catholic” including all the basic Latin chants you would hear at Catholic mass, a cantate dominum, beata virgines, “mass” parts in Latin for three voice polyphony, etc. You actually would think you were at a Catholic mass if you didn’t know it was Lutheran, except they receive communion kneeling at the communion rail and with intinction. The missing important part was that it wasn’t actually Catholic.
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