Must a Jew follow all the commandments?

[Valke2]

The commentary by sages and rabbis is an exercise of human intellect, I agree. THey did not speak from visions from God. Their job was to make sure that God’s word was implemented by Jews in their daily life.

It is for this reason that Judaism is more pluralistic in nature than many give it credit for (Including many jews). If you ever open a page of Talmud, you are likely to see differing opinions on pretty much any subject with (usually) a decision as to which rabbi was followed. The rabbi’s opinion that wasn’t followed is kept because, among other reasons, we acknowledge there may come a time or situation in which the minority opinion is correct.

 

[sambos671]

Judaism in general, cares very much about what happens in the world. When we read Genesis, we learn that God says, at least 4 times, that ALL nations will be blessed through Abraham. As to why only Israel has additional laws to follow, you can get different answers. The traditoinal answer was that through Israel, God’s name was to be glorified to the world. As a practical matter, it would be difficult to establish a religion that could be adopted by billions and require the kind of committment, learning, and practcal implementation that Judaism requires. It is not a mass friendly religion.

Following your thought:

1. The only way to please God is to follow the Law. The Law only given to the Jews to follow not goyim .
2. Isreal is to bless the nations. How? Passing the requirement of the Law? Allow the nations to please God? But they can’t because they’re not required to follow the law.

Seems contradictory.

I believe Isreal was to be a nation of priest not just Levites. The levites for the Isrealites, the Israelites for the world. Isreal as a nation could not do it as God knew. The laws were broken and could not be kept.

Torah indicates that the law must be followed. Ha Rav Yeshua states that not one Jot (Yod) would not pass from the law but must be fulfilled. This is what Paul is teaching.

Rabbinic Judaism confuses me. The Talmud teaches this or that and one Rabbi says this and another says that. Is there a central teaching that all Rabbis have? Or is it like India where Guru this said this or guru that says that?

 

[Kaninchen]

Rabbinic Judaism confuses me. The Talmud teaches this or that and one Rabbi says this and another says that. Is there a central teaching that all Rabbis have?

It’s amazing that we’ve managed to last so long without one central authority to tell us exactly just what and how to believe, isn’t it?

Or, perhaps, it isn’t.

 

[grandfather]

It’s amazing that we’ve managed to last so long without one central authority to tell us exactly just what and how to believe, isn’t it?

Or, perhaps, it isn’t.

On one hand it is amazing, impossible even, that a people or religion could last that can not define what it believes. On the other hand God does amazing things.

 

[Valke2]

Following your thought:

1. The only way to please God is to follow the Law. The Law only given to the Jews to follow not goyim .

God made other covenants with other nations.

1. Isreal is to bless the nations. How? Passing the requirement of the Law? Allow the nations to please God? But they can’t because they’re not required to follow the law.

I had said that Torah states that all nations would be blessed through the covenant with Abraham. Perhaps by establishing monotheism.

Rabbinic Judaism confuses me.

It is Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism is a redundant term.

The Talmud teaches this or that and one Rabbi says this and another says that. Is there a central teaching that all Rabbis have? Or is it like India where Guru this said this or guru that says that?

I don’t know what India is like. The central teaching is of course the TaNaKh. Are your priests simply parroting what the Church in Rome tells them to say or are they interpreting Catholic Dogma in their own way for their respective congregations?

 

[dessert]

I’m not sure I understand the question. I wasn’t thinking about vows. Jews believe in vows but are counseled against taking them because of the seriousness should they break them.

Thank you for your answer Valke sorry to get back so late. I think I understand about the seriousness of vows.

So have you done a vow or is this something Judaism says not to share with others? If it is too personal ignore me.

It is wise to go slowly, I think the commandments are serious too and if one can obey them as a moral code then a vow would be like a next step. Just an advancement towards heaven and our journey and a nother step towards holiness.

 

[Valke2]

Thank you for your answer Valke sorry to get back so late. I think I understand about the seriousness of vows.

So have you done a vow or is this something Judaism says not to share with others? If it is too personal ignore me.

It is wise to go slowly, I think the commandments are serious too and if one can obey them as a moral code then a vow would be like a next step. Just an advancement towards heaven and our journey and another step towards holiness.

I have not made a vow to God. Because I don’t want to be in a position of explaining why I did not honor it! On the eve of Yom Kippur there is a prayer we say to release us from all vows to God. Kind of a moral safety valve. Historically, the rabbis were not crazy about this prayer but it was so important to the jewish people that the rabbis were essentially overruled.

 

[dessert]

I have not made a vow to God. Because I don’t want to be in a position of explaining why I did not honor it! On the eve of Yom Kippur there is a prayer we say to release us from all vows to God. Kind of a moral safety valve. Historically, the rabbis were not crazy about this prayer but it was so important to the jewish people that the rabbis were essentially overruled.

Oh I see!

 

[grandfather]

God made other covenants with other nations.

Hear O Israel, there is one God and God is one. The God of Israel is the one and only God. He did no such things as make a covenant with any people other than Israel. He did not reveal Himself to any other people. Salvation is of the Jews, period. It was a series of expanding covenants from a covenant with a man and woman, Adam and Eve, Noah’s family, Abraham’s people descended through Isaac, Moses nation of Israel, and finally to all nations through Jesus. The God of Israel did not establish pagan religions through His revelation, or pantheist religions, or any religion. How is it possible a Jew could say anything contrary, but I guess there is no longer anything that can be said Jews universally believe.

I had said that Torah states that all nations would be blessed through the covenant with Abraham. Perhaps by establishing monotheism.

Then how did God reveal Himself to polytheists.

It is Judaism. Rabbinic Judaism is a redundant term.

The Judaism that existed in the times of the Temple and Temple sacrifice is no more. The Levitical priesthood and animal sacrifice, as the religion was once practiced, integral to the religion is no longer in existance. Today Judaism exists in another form. Call it Rabbinical Judaism, or anything else, it is different in practice. Reformed, Conservative and Hassidic Jews may go to Temple and study Torah, but that is different from what was.

I don’t know what India is like. The central teaching is of course the TaNaKh. Are your priests simply parroting what the Church in Rome tells them to say or are they interpreting Catholic Dogma in their own way for their respective congregations?

The precepts of Catholicism can be known. There is a clearly defined body of dogma. Catholics may believe or disbelieve various dogma, falling into heresy or not, but what the Church believes is defined. At times in certain places non-Catholic beliefs and practices were blended or mixed into the rites and teaching of the Church. You do not have to go to India to find them. There are plenty of abuses right here. That does not change the fact that a clearly defined set of dogma exists. A certain thing is de fide, of the faith, or it is not.

 

[grandfather]

I have not made a vow to God. Because I don’t want to be in a position of explaining why I did not honor it! On the eve of Yom Kippur there is a prayer we say to release us from all vows to God. Kind of a moral safety valve. Historically, the rabbis were not crazy about this prayer but it was so important to the jewish people that the rabbis were essentially overruled.

When Jews marry, do they take vows?

 

[sambos671]

Good question! I’m not Catholic which doesn’t help my case here. However, from a Catholic perspective I’ll state it depends on what you mean by interpreting dogma in their own way. They can in consideration of their parishes needs but never in a way that would change a fundemental teaching of the church and definately not in anyway that changes the churches understanding of the deposit of faith. Jews can be totally differing on Torah interpretations. Some (Orthodox Jews I believe) believe in a physical resurrection. Other Jews deffinately do not. I believe there is no centrality in Judaism because of the dispersion. Which will make it very interesting if a Third Temple ever gets built. BTW if this happens will there be animal sacrifices again?*

 

[Kaninchen]

On one hand it is amazing, impossible even, that a people or religion could last that can not define what it believes.

Perhaps you might explain why this is a problem?

By that, I don’t mean why it’s a problem within the Christian paradigm, I understand why it’s a problem within the Christian paradigm, I mean why it should be a problem within the Jewish (or any other religion for that matter) paradigm.

 

[grandfather]

Perhaps you might explain why this is a problem?

By that, I don’t mean why it’s a problem within the Christian paradigm, I understand why it’s a problem within the Christian paradigm, I mean why it should be a problem within the Jewish (or any other religion for that matter) paradigm.

All religions share something in common. They all provide some explanation of reality and that explanation defines the religion. All people in all times wonder about the same or similar basic questions. Where did we come from? Why do we exist, or what is our purpose? How should we treat each other (morals). What happens when we die? My mother died and I love and miss her. What happened to her soul or spirit or life force? What is the destiny of mankind?

These questions are unanswerable by the power of human intellect. We can not figure out why we exist and know the answer for certain. We can speculate and in the absence of a true answer we make guesses, maybes. Every people has some kind of creation story, a religion of some sort.

All religions propose some explanation of reality. They propose answers to the universal questions that we can not find answers to by the power of intellect. In other words they explain or define life and reality that we can see and can not see. They tell you how you came into existence, why you exist and where you are going and how to get there, in general terms.

The only reason to adhere to any religion is that you believe the precepts or doctrines it proposes. This is the glue that holds a religion together. It is the thing that unifies it and holds it in existence. In order to believe or accept the explanation of reality proposed by any religion you have to know what it is.

All religions propose some kind of moral norms. In order to follow them you must know what they are.

Since we can not figure out the answers to these big universal questions we can only know the answers if they are given to us. We all live by faith, although not religious faith. If I am ill and go to the doctor and he tells me what is wrong and what to do about getting well, and I believe him and follow his advice, I do so by faith. He gives me the recipe to get well and I believe him, not being able to figure out what to do on my own. If I am lost in a city and ask you for directions and you tell me how to get where I am going, I know how to get to my destiny by faith, by believing you. We can gain knowledge by faith. If we believe truth about spiritual destinies or how to heal broken souls we also gain this knowledge by faith, religious faith.

Christians and Jews believe God revealed certain information to mankind through divine revelation. Moses came down from the mountain with it. We did not figure this stuff out. It was revealed. We believe God created all that is. One being made heaven and earth, all that exists, including your soul and mine.
We believe that in salvation history this Being who is immortal and had no beginning or end and who cares about us intervened in history to lead us to our destiny in the stories of Noah, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the twelve tribes, Moses, David, the prophets, etc. We know this and other things by faith.

Logic says what we believe may be correct or true, or it may be false. But any religion whether it is true or false, has to propose some explanation of reality from which moral norms come, to which its adherents can assent. This is how they know who they are and why they are Mormons and not Presbyterians or Buddhists.

There really is no defined Jewish religion anymore. I met Israelis who are atheists, but consider themselves Jews. They are Jews not by any faith or assent to any religious principle, but by genes. Other Jews who are religious also say the atheists are Jews. This is not a religion. There is nothing religious about it. It is more tribal than anything else.

What is interesting to me about Jews is that it is ok to be an atheist and you are still a Jew. If you come to faith in Jesus you are no longer a Jew. I have a friend who attended some rite for a relative in the synagogue, maybe a bar mitzvah if I recall. He was not allowed to read from the Torah, but his atheist brother was allowed to read.

Maybe this is the common definition or belief that makes Jews Jews, that they all agree gives them some common identity. It is not what they are in religion, but what they are not. They are not Christians.

 

[Kaninchen]

All religions propose some kind of moral norms. In order to follow them you must know what they are. . . . Since we can not figure out the answers to these big universal questions we can only know the answers if they are given to us.

It’s in the sense of that ‘given’ that much of the paradigmatic difference lies.

I had asked for explanation outside the Christian ‘paradigm’, you know. There is a persistent error that I think that many Christians make when trying to understand Judaism (or other religions generally) and that is that they imagine that the religion ‘works’ like Christianity, just a bit differently, in other words that “Judaism = Christianity – Jesus” or “Christianity = Judaism + Jesus”. That just is not the case.

Maybe this is the common definition or belief that makes Jews Jews, that they all agree gives them some common identity. It is not what they are in religion, but what they are not. They are not Christians.

I’ve always thought that the triumph of Christianity as a religion was that it invented an illness and then went on to announce itself as the only cure. Quite clever really but, of course, the ‘hand of the inevitable’ played its part and it fractured into lots of Christianities all proclaiming their own definitions of the illness and their own particular versions of the cure - with the additional message that partaking of a rival cure is poison.

 

[grandfather]

I’ve always thought that the triumph of Christianity as a religion was that it invented an illness and then went on to announce itself as the only cure. .

One thing seems certain. There is an illness. There is something wrong. It does not have to be invented. It is not imaginary. The evidence of it is in the headlines everyday, on television news and other programs. People are broken. Their lives are crushed in violence, addiction, injustice, perversity, greed and corruption. There may or may not be a single cure, logic says. If there is and it is available some people may choose to receive it and others reject it. In the history of the Jews we see Moses presenting the Jews with two options, two choices. We see that again with the prophets. Follow the lord or don’t. There was and is only one path for them to take or not take. This is certainly not a Christian invention. It is Jewish history.

 

[Kaninchen]

One thing seems certain. There is an illness. There is something wrong. It does not have to be invented. It is not imaginary. The evidence of it is in the headlines everyday, on television news and other programs. People are broken. Their lives are crushed in violence, addiction, injustice, perversity, greed and corruption. There may or may not be a single cure, logic says. If there is and it is available some people may choose to receive it and others reject it. In the history of the Jews we see Moses presenting the Jews with two options, two choices. We see that again with the prophets. Follow the lord or don’t. There was and is only one path for them to take or not take. This is certainly not a Christian invention. It is Jewish history.

Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on your interpretation, won’t we?

 

[tomarin]

I’ve always thought that the triumph of Christianity as a religion was that it invented an illness and then went on to announce itself as the only cure. Quite clever really but, of course, the ‘hand of the inevitable’ played its part and it fractured into lots of Christianities all proclaiming their own definitions of the illness and their own particular versions of the cure - with the additional message that partaking of a rival cure is poison.

ah, but is this an argument for judaism or an argument for naturalism? (or perhaps those two are not mutually incompatible the way christianity and naturalism are?)

 

[Kaninchen]

ah, but is this an argument for judaism or an argument for naturalism? (or perhaps those two are not mutually incompatible the way christianity and naturalism are?)

It’s an observation.

 

[grandfather]

Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on your interpretation, won’t we?

Which interpretation? I did not think I interpreted anything. The history of the Jews was written by Jews, not Christians. I believe what they wrote about themselves. I believe they were accurate in recording their story, that their intention was to be truthful as they chronicled the events that happened. They revealed both sides of their history truthfully, the noble and ignoble aspects. It is either as they said it was or it is a fabrication. There may be some imprecission in the telling as there is in all recounting of things, but it is either a deliberate giagantic hoax or generally accurate. Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac or he wasn’t. The story of Moses, slavery in Eygpt, exodus, the Red Sea parting happened or it didn’t. David killed Goliath or he didn’t. Queen Ester saved her people or she didn’t. The Temple lamp stayed lit or it is baloney. We may not be able to explain all of these phenomon precisely, but either the Jews honestly recorded them as best they could, or their history is a lie. You and I can believe or not believe it happened, but it either happened or it didn’t. What is there to interpret?

 

[Kaninchen]

What is there to interpret?

Well, there’s a central paradigmatic difference, then.

Mind you, I didn’t think that Catholics believed in biblical literalism - are you certain that you do? Seems a bit odd, you know, I’m sure I’ve been told that there’s tradition and Magisterium and stuff like that.