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sambos671
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I was going through Torah and came across a verse in Deuteronomy which Moses says not to take away or add to the Law that he gave the Jews. How does this fit in with Oral tradition or Talmud?
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Carl_Nicholas
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( Not to intrude in your back and forth )
VERY WELL SAID ( my humble opinion)
Thanks for your last several responses.
God bless,
Carl
Hello Grandfather,
( Not to intrude in your back and forth )
VERY WELL SAID ( my humble opinion)
Thanks for your last several responses.
God bless,
Carl
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Kaninchen
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Because the Law cannot cover all possibilities and all cases without interpretation and because legal systems develop case law and legal theory.
Where does it say, for example, ‘do not switch on your microwave on Sabbath’?
Judaism ‘works’ differently from Christianity.
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inJESUS
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agree
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Valke2
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It is a big issue with Jews. Moses’ admonition is the cumulation of the Garden of Eden story. There, Eve adds to the law by saying she is prohibited to touch the tree. There’s a midrash in the Talmud that says the serpant pushed Eve against the tree and said “see, you didn’t die” and this led her to eat from the tree.
This is a good example of the importance of reading the Torah as a whole rather than individual verses. THe opening chapters of Genesis tie in very will the with Deut. and Exodus.
As with everything in Judaism, there are two schools of thought. We have sages saying the more laws we make the better and we have sages who say “better to have a 10 foot fence around the vinyard than a 100 foot fence that falls over”
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sambos671
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I know in Isreal there are Sabbat Elevators which don’t run on Sabbat. Is this what you mean?
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Valke2
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Shabbat elevators are elevators that do run on shabbat, but they stop on every floor, so you don’t have to press a button.
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sambos671
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Now that is interesting! I know what you mean about Eve making more of it than was told Adam. You sure Adam didn’t add to it and tell it to Eve? I have problems with the midrash because of things like the book of Jasher which was writen in the 1300 from midrashic consepts.
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Valke2
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Adam could have added to it. In fact, that is the better interpretation (IMO) because it underscores the danger inherent in the oral transmission of God’s laws.
Can you explain why the book of Jashar gives you problems with the idea of midrash?
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sambos671
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Yes but please give me time to get back. I want to get my thoughts together and explain my thoughts but for now I’ll say I’ve compared it to the Book of Enoch and will review the book of the Assumption of Moses and there is very little similarities in concepts and ideas. Jasher seems like mideval concepts incorporated in Jewish literature. But I want to give a better idea of what I mean.
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grandfather
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I believe Abraham existed, literally. I believe King David existed. Solomon built a temple, literally, and had an out of control hormone problem. I believe Moses gave dietary rules that some Jews still follow them to one extent or another, thousands of years later. They originated with Moses, not George Washington or a Persian satrap. The seder meal originated with the flight out of Eygpt. This story is not a fable. I believe the Jews gave the best accounting of their history that they could.
There are always discrepencies in the stories of witnesses of the same event. They never align perfectly. That does not mean anyone is lying. Recollections can and do differ. There is symbolism and allegory and poetry in the Bible.
Did the Jews wander in the desert for exactly forty years? It does not matter. The Jews did not write fictituous stories and deliberately create a myth about themselves for their posterity. That is what I believe about them.
As a Jew do you think otherwise?
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Kaninchen
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We seem to be at some cross-purposes here.
I came in on the conversation (post #23) on the question of the lack of central authority, rather than rowing rabbis, in Jewish teaching and have been responding to you as if your comment (post #24) was about that subject. Meanwhile, you’ve been talking about ‘Torah from Sinai’.
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Kaninchen
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In the sense that something is based on a set of rules viewed through precedent and ‘legal argument’, I guess so.
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grandfather
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In Catholcism there is a sin we call scrupulosity. It is a very real problem and difficult to deal with. I have a Jewish friend, very religious, who became seriously menatally ill and suicidal. He found a psychiatrist who gave him tests that showed he was highly scrupulous when it comes to matters of religion and this was the cause of his mental illness. I know he was a very scrupulous person and hard on himself, but do not know if that is what caused his illness.
Jesus spoke of straining at gnats and swallowing camels. He probably used that metaphor, because in those days they did not have elevator buttons.
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Valke2
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If so, he was preaching a sentiment expressed by certain rabbis and sages before him. There is a tension in the halacha between form and spirit.
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Sepharad
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Two religions which always carried great attraction to victims of OCD are Orthodox Judaism and Traditional Catholicism. Any religion that has lots of little rules and rituals seem to draw people with OCD like flies!
It is important not only to keep the laws of the Torah, but to “keep” the spiritual meaning behind them. Jesus tried to amplify this idea, when he said, "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint, anise and cumin, but have omitted the weightier matters of the Law, which are justice, mercy and truth.
These you ought to have done, and not have left the others undone".
I find that many Orthodox Jews keep the letter of the Law but not the spirit…while many Christians keep the spirit but not the letter. (I consider myself very blessed because I recently found a group of Jews who endeavor their best to do both.)
One also must understand the difference between laws and teachings meant to be taken literally, and those which are meant figuratively. Much of what Jesus taught was what in Judaism we call ‘aggadic’ (stories meant to illustrate a point), and “halakhic” (actual law.) In Orthodox yeshivos, teaching is done in a sing-song chant…the teacher will change the tone of the chant when the teaching switches from halakhic (laws) to aggadic (tales), to illustrate this.
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sambos671
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Ok. I’m rested and can give you some of my thoughts on Mishna. I think the early debates between 70 and 200 I’m not so conserned with when it comes to Jashar. What I do become concerned with is from 1100’s on with the Mishna Torah. It seems a lot of added things that included mideval Jewish thinking was (name removed by moderator)uted but you see it more with Jashar. First off I don’t like that it tries to sell itself as the non exant book of Jashar mentioned in Joshua. 2nd when comparing to the older Jewish literature the is divergence. ie. The book of Enoch condems the antideluvians for their violence and subjecting themselves to the watchers where in Jashar it maintians idolatry as the primary cause.
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Valke2
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I’m having some difficulty following this reasoning and I’m going to try to figure it out as I post. The Mishna Torah itself remained the same from about 400 onward. I suppose you are taking issue with the Gemara and subsequent commentaries on the Mishna that eventually formed what is now known as the Talmud.
The book of Jashar is not part of the Talmud. As far as I know, the actually text of Jashar (Sefer ha Yasar) has never been recovered, although it is referenced in other scripture. So I’m not sure what mean when you say you have read the book. Any book by that title is a speculation only (I think).
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Sepharad
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I have a friend who is in the process of converting from (first Catholic), then Evangelical Christianity to (now) Orthodox Judaism. And I remember that the first time I ever heard of the book of Jasher was from him, years ago.
What’s it all about, actually?
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Valke2
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It’s difficult to say because it is a lost text.
We know that it referenced the battles:
Joshua 10:13 states:
And then Sun stood still, and the Moon stayed,
until the people had avenged themselves on their enemies.
Is this not written in the Book of the Upright (Sēper haiYāšār)?
Samuel 1 also mentions it (as teaching Jews to use the bow).
But the book itself hasn’t turned up. It is a good example and reminder that there was much more to ancient Jewish texts than the TaNaKh. I happend to have been reading “Understanding Genesis” today and it mentioned that there are more than 20 references to other writings in the TaNaKh.
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