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royal_archer
Guest
People who have one of those should not receive any special protections over those who do not.
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aspawloski4th
Guest
Define special protection please, in specific terms.
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Dale_M
Guest
I don’t think Zoe claimed that. What she was referencing is that religion is protected class in the United States. Discrimination against Catholics, simply for being Catholic, is illegal. The same would apply to Baptists, Mormons, Muslims etc.
Its an interesting argument, but I am not sure it has any real world significance. There is no need to legislate every single physical and mental anomaly. Legislation is only needed if a class of people is being singled out for unfair discrimination.
Could you explain how protecting a class of people from discrimination automatically means other people will be discriminated against? Its not as if employers or landlords have a unmet need to discriminate and will vent their appetite on anyone not protected.
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CMatt25
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Not unless you live in a theocracy rather than a democratic, pluralistic society. 
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royal_archer
Guest
I can only go off what was stated. which is that Catholics have specific protections.
isn’t all discrimination inherently unfair?
Transgendered people are not being universally singled out. Yes, some people will have personal preferences against them but some people have personal preferences against people who are not athletic, against people who have cosmetic defects, who are attractive, etc. Look at the kids who act dumb because of the way smart kids are treated.
The other people who have defining factors that are not among the finite list are not getting equal protection.
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Zoe_Brain
Guest
Universally? No. Only 97%, not 100%.
The latest surveys show this figure has climbed to 97%. And the Archdiocese of Boston wants to keep it that way.
There were 7 hate crimes involving violence against Catholics for being Catholic in 2007. They are a “protected class” to stop that kind of thing happening. And the Archdiocese of Boston wants to keep it that way.
There were over 1400, involving 18 murders (IIRC - exact figures are in another thread), of Trans people for being trans in the same period. They don’t have the same “protected class” treatment that Catholics - and Mormons and Baptists and Jews - have. And the Archdiocese of Boston wants to keep it that way.
And if the bill’s opponents have to blatantly lie, and say there is no problem, that trans people aren’t discriminated against, because if people knew what the facts were, the bill would pass by acclamation - well, they have to do that. For the Greater Good. Far more of the opponents aren’t liars, merely ignorant, they’ve been misled by those they trust. And haven’t bothered to check the facts.
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aspawloski4th
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A tell tail sign of someone who has been immersed in the business too long. Us in the real world know what zoe said is true. You need to bone up on anti discrimation laws and civil rights laws. there is going to never be the catch no discrimination law you think should happen, therefore the current framework of law is what we need to use to make sure that groups that are targeted for discrimination are protected from discrimination through law, thats how it works. Neither you nor I nor anyone else can change that.
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royal_archer
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Claiming you are discriminated against is not the same as being actually discriminated against. I have seen many below average workers who could not accept the fact they were not performing and accused their bosses of discrimination. Of all of the claims of discrimination I have seen, none was actually a case of discrimination.
All crimes are hatefull and all people should be protected from crimes.
Please provide me the reference for the law that gives Catholics special protections.
The fact is that lots of people are “discriminated” against for a lot of reasons. The lie is when one focuses on the crimes against one group but ignores the crimes against all other groups and then portray it as a situatoin only impacting the prefered group.
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Zoe_Brain
Guest
CHAPTER 151B. UNLAWFUL DISCRIMINATION BECAUSE OF RACE, COLOR, RELIGIOUS CREED, NATIONAL ORIGIN, ANCESTRY OR SEX
CHAPTER 71. PUBLIC SCHOOLS
Chapter 272: Section 98. Discrimination in admission to, or treatment in, place of public accommodation; punishment; forfeiture; civil right
Chapter 272: Section 92A. Advertisement, book, notice or sign relative to discrimination; definition of place of public accommodation, resort or amusement
Chapter 161A: Section 25. Directors; authority to bargain collectively with labor organizations; restrictions
Shall I go on?
Example:
Chapter 23: Section 11K. Basic program standards; apprentice ratio; eligibility; minimum employment; pay; credit; resolution of complaints
The new law would add “gender identity” to that list. Currently, discrimination against Catholics because they are Catholic is illegal by this law. Just as discrimination against Jews is for being Jewish. Or against Gays for being Gay. But discrimination against Trans or Intersexed people for being Trans or Intersexed? That’s fine. And the Archdiocese of Boston wants to keep it that way.
This wouldn’t be a problem if the discrimination wasn’t so widespread and pervasive. But the facts say that it is. To say that a 40% unemployment rate is no evidence of discrimination shows either malicious negligence, or blatant lying. But I’ll let the facts speak for themselves.
Where was I…
Chapter 76: Section 5. Place of attendance; violations; discrimination
Chapter 175: Section 4C. Nondiscrimination in provision, renewal, or cancellation of homeowners insurance
Chapter 175I: Section 7. Investigative consumer report; personal interview; prohibited information
Chapter 22C: Section 32. Definitions applicable to Secs. 33 to 35
etc etc etc, I’m less than halfway through.
You could have looked for yourself - this is all available online. Just as you could have looked for the evidence put before the Senate committee hearing on employment discrimination against trans people.
So… please give me the references you used to come to your conclusion that there’s no discrimination. The surveys and so on. Because your continued objections in the face of the facts, the existence of people like you (for you’re not alone), are an obvious lesson to all in why such laws are needed.
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Dale_M
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Royal Archer, your examples are valid when it comes to personal relationships, but personal relationships can’t be legislated. However, we are discussing discrimination in employment, housing, etc. Are you seriously saying that unathletic people are being routinely discriminated for employment? Or that unattractive people are being routinely denied housing?
I think your examples lack real world significance.
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Jordan9
Guest
Zoe,
Thanks for this thread! I don’t post on CA a lot, so I wasn’t aware that you were transsexual. But even more significantly, I also wasn’t aware of the degree of violent crime that occurs against people who are transsexual. I’m certainly moved, emboldened, heartbroken, and galvanized by the statistics and stories you shared in here.
As for the original purpose of this thread, I’m afraid I am just as ill-informed on that as I was on violent crime toward people who are transsexual. So, I’ve nothing to really contribute.
But I will say that I firmly believe that all people are worthy of human rights, dignity, and respect. It’s one of the major reasons I am going to join the Church and was a major lead to the Church for me. As such, I am saddened and concerned at the Church’s silence on the issue, and am even a bit angry at how some Catholics have responded to it, assuming all the links you posted were more or less true. (And I think they are.)
I think some reasonable and accurate factors were brought up in this thread about it, though. The interlinking of transsexual human rights and legal protections with radical, counter-Church things like gay marriage is obviously one contributor. As is the sex abuse scandal in the Church, and the constant vitriol and polemics coming out of the mainstream media toward the Church. I am unsure if these factors vindicate the Church for being silent, but they certainly do help answer the question of why the Church hasn’t said much.
Also, I can definitely relate to 6 hour hospital trips
I was born with heterotaxy, so I have no spleen and a small hole in my heart. I see a group of cardiologists and specialists every summer, and for the first 11 years of my life, I lived about 7 or 8 hours from Halifax, the only place the specialists were available. Though, when you’re a kid, the trips are sometimes fun.
Anyway, thank you again for asking the tough questions, for enlightening me, and for being so brave.
Love and blessings!
Thanks for this thread! I don’t post on CA a lot, so I wasn’t aware that you were transsexual. But even more significantly, I also wasn’t aware of the degree of violent crime that occurs against people who are transsexual. I’m certainly moved, emboldened, heartbroken, and galvanized by the statistics and stories you shared in here.
As for the original purpose of this thread, I’m afraid I am just as ill-informed on that as I was on violent crime toward people who are transsexual. So, I’ve nothing to really contribute.
But I will say that I firmly believe that all people are worthy of human rights, dignity, and respect. It’s one of the major reasons I am going to join the Church and was a major lead to the Church for me. As such, I am saddened and concerned at the Church’s silence on the issue, and am even a bit angry at how some Catholics have responded to it, assuming all the links you posted were more or less true. (And I think they are.)
I think some reasonable and accurate factors were brought up in this thread about it, though. The interlinking of transsexual human rights and legal protections with radical, counter-Church things like gay marriage is obviously one contributor. As is the sex abuse scandal in the Church, and the constant vitriol and polemics coming out of the mainstream media toward the Church. I am unsure if these factors vindicate the Church for being silent, but they certainly do help answer the question of why the Church hasn’t said much.
Also, I can definitely relate to 6 hour hospital trips
I was born with heterotaxy, so I have no spleen and a small hole in my heart. I see a group of cardiologists and specialists every summer, and for the first 11 years of my life, I lived about 7 or 8 hours from Halifax, the only place the specialists were available. Though, when you’re a kid, the trips are sometimes fun. Anyway, thank you again for asking the tough questions, for enlightening me, and for being so brave.
Love and blessings!
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Zoe_Brain
Guest
Hi Jordan!
Technically, I’m not. I’m a protandrous pseudohermaphrodite. Someone whose apparent sex changes from natural causes from male to female. Female to male changes are much more common, but they’re rare enough.
But Transsexual is close enough. Those who go around bashing Gays, Lesbians, Intersexed and Trans people don’t make such fine distinctions. It only makes a difference when I see my endocrinologist, and there are some legal complications too that transsexuals don’t face. But close enough, as I said.
Of course, according to the widely accepted Theology of the Body, I can’t exist. It would be against Natural Law. God’s divinely ordained division between male and female.
Neither can the Guevedoces of the Dominican Republic exist, nor the others like me around the world. The turnim-men of the Sambia tribe of New Guinea, for example. Or the cluster of cases of 17BHDD in Gaza, as shown in this CNN documentary.
Which is a bit of a problem. The whole edifice of “Marriage is between a Man and a Woman” and “homosexuality is intrinsically disordered” bit depends on me not existing. Nor the Guevedoces, nor the Turnim-men, nor the others.
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royal_archer
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Your reference did not specify Catholics However it already did specify sex. Transgender is a type of sex. So what you are asking for is special rights.
You still have not offered any reason to consider your facts valid.
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royal_archer
Guest
All employment relationships are based on personal relationships. We do not see statistics about the extent of this discrimination because there are no advocacy groups and no legal cases.
I don’t believe there is discrimination in housing. When selling a house you do not see buyer till closing normally. Why should any seller, care about the personal condition of the person buying the house.
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aspawloski4th
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Employemnt relationships based on personal relationships!!! What planet do you live on? Those are 2 different types of relationships in any normal person’s book. Personal and employment relationships are not in the least comparable. There are many jobs that don’t allow employee to frarnalise and make the relationships personal. You need to get out of the office more.
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royal_archer
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I said personal, not intimate.
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Dale_M
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erm… while it is true that how a person presents in an employment interview is important, the actual hiring is not based on a personal relationship. Sorry, but your point fails.
I think the discrimination occurs with landlords and potential renters, not with persons wanting to sell their property.
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royal_archer
Guest
opportunities in the work place are influenced by the image one presents and how well one gets along with those around them. As a result sometimes the pretty people get opportunities that the less attractive get.
As for trans sexuals not getting rental properties; I don’t remember any potential land lords giving that close of a check that they checked genetailia
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Zoe_Brain
Guest
Wow. And there was I thinking Catholicism was a religious creed. As in because of the race, color, religious creed, national origin, sex, sexual orientation
You really are grasping at straws.
No it’s not - it’s pretty obvious you’re Trolling now. It’s not in a legal sense, and no Catholic would say that either, it directly contradicts Church dogma.
Neither is Intersex, legally speaking.
It’s now plain that you want this persecution to continue, and no degree of mendacity is forbidden. Yes, I’m accusing you of deliberately bearing false witness. Of Trolling.
Let us say for the sake of argument that “transgender” is a sex, or a sexual orientation, or both, as you say.
Then adding “gender identity” to the list would give no additional rights, as they already have them. It would be redundant, but that’s all. Exactly what special rights would they be given, if they already have them?
The fact is that they don’t. And your blatant lies, contradictions, or falsehoods show that you lack good faith.
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royal_archer
Guest
Everyone has a religious preference. The law gives no special consideration to Catholics over any other religion. The protections currently in place for transgendered are more than for other groups. There are no lies here. Name calling does not improve an arguement.
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