Must God obey the Pope?

[hermit]

In the excommunication thread the consensus is that the Popes decision is final.

If a person is excommunicated erroneously, must God abide by the Pope’s decision?

 

[ktm]

hermit:

If a person is excommunicated erroneously, must God abide by the Pope’s decision?

Are you serious with this question?

 

[Romani]

hermit:

In the excommunication thread the consensus is that the Popes decision is final.

If a person is excommunicated erroneously, must God abide by the Pope’s decision?

God can overrule anyone and anything!!!
:bowdown2: He’s GOD! :bowdown2:

Romani

 

[RCEllis]

hermit:

In the excommunication thread the consensus is that the Popes decision is final.

If a person is excommunicated erroneously, must God abide by the Pope’s decision?

The principle is that the Pope would never excommunicate in error, being guided by the Holy Spirit in matters of The Church and it’s theology, doctrine and dogma.

Clint

 

[_veritas]

In a certain sense, yes, because God has willed it so.

Remember –

“And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
-Matthew 16:18-19

And again, later in Matthew, in speaking about the authority of the Church –

“Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
-Matthew 18:18

Catholics believe that the Holy Father is guided in matters of faith and morals by God Himself, in the Person of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the Holy Father has the authority to “bind” and “loose” on earth, and God “obeys” it because God has willed the Church to function in this way.

God bless!

+veritas+

 

[BLB_Oregon]

Excommunication puts you out of the Church. I don’t know in what sense God could “not abide by that” except to influence Rome to reverse the action. That is to say, although Rome could acknowledge the equivalent of a clerical error on a matter like this, you can’t be a member of the Catholic Church when Rome has put you out by just saying “God says I am a member.”

Remember that excommunication is not damnation. It is a correction intended to ensure that the entire house does not fall, and it is a proper part of the authority of the Pope. The Church knows of many people who have died without reconcilliation with Rome after excommunication, yet will pronounce no single person to have been damned. As the Pope would be the first to tell you, no one can put you out of the reach of God.

 

[madavis]

hermit:

If a person is excommunicated erroneously, must God abide by the Pope’s decision?

honestly… are you serious? I’m going to go with no, or else He would not be God.

 

[hermit]

Yes, it is a serious question because it deals with the extent of Papal authority.

To those who said the Pope can not excommunicate one erroneously, I hate to disillusion you but there have been several instances in the history of the church where this has happened.

I believe two were later declared saints, but I will have to research this further.

I think my question is more relevant than those who spent time on the nitwittery of trying to determine how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

I’m not informed as to any doctrine surrounding the issue of excommunication, but my take on it is that it is a sanction. It denies access to the sacraments of the Church. If a person were falsely condemned (such as Joan of Arc), yet died without any mortal sin that would have needed confessing, this should be no impediment to salvation.

 

[madavis]

hermit:

Yes, it is a serious question because it deals with the extent of Papal authority.

I think you are getting confused of what Papal authority means. I know that what is bound on Earth shall be bound in Heaven and so on and so forth, but this in no way means that God has to obey the Pope’s decisions. Someone corect me if I am wrong, but the Pope’s “infallable” authority has always been believed in the Church to mean concerning faith and morals (i.e. doctrine). This has nothing to do with his decisions on excommunication and what not. The Pope is a human being and a sinner stained with original sin, and therefore is capable of making huge mistakes (as some have). If someone is unjustly denied the sacraments, I would think God would take this into account (not that I speak for God). It’s not like God will cast someone into hell just because a sinful Pope decided to excommunicate them.

 

[madavis]

hermit:

I think my question is more relevant than those who spent time on the nitwittery of trying to determine how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

hahaha…

please tell me some people were not actually debating this… if so, twood be nitwittery indeed.

 

[hermit]

madavis:

hahaha…

please tell me some people were not actually debating this… if so, twood be nitwittery indeed.

That argument was quite popular with the medieval metaphysicians. Yes it was seriously debated.

 

[DuMaurier]

hermit:

That argument was quite popular with the medieval metaphysicians. Yes it was seriously debated.

Yeah, 800 years ago.

Seriously though. I think Oregon answered your question quite well.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

hermit:

must God abide by the Pope’s decision?

That just sounds so funny as a question.


(I am Catholic.)

 

[RBushlow]

hermit:

If a person is excommunicated erroneously, must God abide by the Pope’s decision?

You need to do some serious homework. After the Bible, I’d suggest starting with the early Church Fathers, then the book Faith of our Fathers. You completly fail to grasp the office of the Pope. Sorry to be so blunt.

Yours in Christ.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Greg_McPherran:

That just sounds so funny as a question.

By the way, hermit, I meant no offense to your question, I just saw humor in it the way you worded it.

 

[Romani]

hermit:

Yes, it is a serious question because it deals with the extent of Papal authority.

To those who said the Pope can not excommunicate one erroneously, I hate to disillusion you but there have been several instances in the history of the church where this has happened.

I believe two were later declared saints, but I will have to research this further.

I think my question is more relevant than those who spent time on the nitwittery of trying to determine how many angels could dance on the head of a pin.

Yes, you’re right, it has happened. Look at the story of Blessed Mary MacKillop, the founder of the Sisters of St Joseph in Australia. She was wrongly excommunicated and this is not disputed. I’m sure there must be other cases as well where our wonderful, but still very human, Church authorities have made bad decisions and grave mistakes. God is never ‘locked in’ to **our **decisions. I have no doubt that if Mary Mackillop had died before her excommunication had been lifted, she would not have gone to Hell because of it.
Romani

 

[jimmy]

hermit:

In the excommunication thread the consensus is that the Popes decision is final.

If a person is excommunicated erroneously, must God abide by the Pope’s decision?

An excommunication is not a judgement on someones soul. It is an act of discipline. It is designed to make people realize there heresy or to make people realize the problem with some other persons heresy and not to follow it.
Again the church does not make a judgement on someones soul, they leave that to God.

There are two kinds of excommunication. The first latae sententae, which is incurred as soon as you commit the offense. It is kind of like you taking your self out of the church and excommunicating yourself based on your actions.
The second is ferendae sententae, which is incurred by someone with the authority to judge it. This is when you are actually declared to be outside the church.
To be re admitted into the faith you must confess your sin and ammend your ways.

 

[asquared]

The judgement that Sr Joseph or St. Joan or anyone else was wrongly excommunicated is not ours or yours or mine to make, that is a secular judgment. If the church later reveresed such an action because the objective situation of the individual changed, or more complete facts became known, that also is properly the judgement of the church. Since the church (meaning the magesterium and the pope) in acting this way acts under the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit, it cannot err. Their are circumstances and spiritual realities in these cases, that transcend what we can know and observe. Perhaps the experience of Sr. Joseph was efficacious for her soul, but we cannot know or speculate. Individual bishops can err especially when acting under the secular authority (as in the case of St.Joan).

 

[hermit]

RBushlow:

You need to do some serious homework. After the Bible, I’d suggest starting with the early Church Fathers, then the book Faith of our Fathers. You completly fail to grasp the office of the Pope. Sorry to be so blunt.

Yours in Christ.

Sorry to disappoint you but I have studied the early fathers extensively. It amazes me how people can make such wild extrapolations on a few sentences.

I have been accused of being non-catholic. Since when does Catholicism forbid honest questioning?