Must God obey the Pope?

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hermit:
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RBushlow:
Originally Posted by RBushlow
You need to do some serious homework. After the Bible, I’d suggest starting with the early Church Fathers, then the book Faith of our Fathers. You completly fail to grasp the office of the Pope. Sorry to be so blunt.

Yours in Christ.
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Sorry to disappoint you but I have studied the early fathers extensively. It amazes me how people can make such wild extrapolations on a few sentences.

I have been accused of being non-catholic. Since when does Catholicism forbid honest questioning?
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The question was phrased in such a way as contradicts all of the sources mentioned, thus giving the impression that either 1) it was not intended seriously or 2) the person asking did not understand that it contradicts these sources. Yours in Christ.
 
I think we’re missing the point here. Excommunication isn’t throwing someone out of the Church as much as it is declaring that the person is already out of the Church, and therefore, needs to repent. It is more a pointing out of the person’s (lack of) spiritual relationship with the Church (and therefore, God) than it is actually changing the relationship. For example, if someone commits some act that warrants excommunication, it isn’t the excommunication that puts him in trouble with God. The excommunication merely states that he is in trouble with God, alerting him to the fact that he’s stepped out of the Church due to his actions and needs to repent.

I think the misunderstanding of what excommunication is sounds very much like the misunderstanding many have over what a declaration of nullity is with regard to marriage. The declaration of nullity doesn’t “make” anything happen or undo anything that has happened. It states that what was thought to be a sacramental marriage never really was.
 
May I interject a secular analogy?

Let’s say you were wrongfully accused of murder. You didn’t do it, it was the one-armed man! But, the police are still after you. You may even be caught and convicted in a court of law. Now, of course, this means that the police and the courts made a mistake.

However, does that mean that murder is not wrong?

The doctrine of infallibility means that the Pope as well as the extraordinary Magisterium are infallible in teaching faith and morals (although in other cases both should be obeyed with a religious assent). This means that the Holy Spirit protects, for example, a Pope from pronouncing a heretical doctrine ex cathedra, or a Ecumenical Council from teaching heresy. It is a negative protection, since the Deposit of Faith is complete.

However, the Pope and his bishops can be mistaken in excommunicating someone. Such was the case of St. Joan of Arc and several others. Despite the mistake, infallibility has not been nullified. If St. Joan of Arc had really been a heretic, then yes, she would have been justly excommunicated. But, she was not, and heresy is as always still a grave sin.

Thus, excommunication, having no effect on the actual teachings of the Catholic Church, cannot fall under the charism of infallibility, even if the one pronouncing the excommunication was the Pope himself.

The Augustinian

Note: This is based upon my own understanding of the charism of infallibility and on the practice of excommunication. If this is not a teaching of the Catholic Church, I freely recant my position.
 
I thought that people excommincated themselves, and that the Pope was merely decreeing or confirming this state of excommunication of the particular person.

We are instructed to work with people in our Faith Community regarding Faith practice. The bar for excommunication is very specific. And none of the action represents the Church removing itself from someone. It takes a lot to actually decree excommunication.

The actions represent someone removing themselves from the Church, not the other way around.
 
My very first post on joining CAF was on undereducated catholics.

The Pope is not infallible in all things. He is only infallible when speaking ex cathedra i.e. from the chair of Peter. Infallibility has been invoked very few times since it was pronounced as an article of faith.

Infallibility has nothing to do with excommunication, so it is possible for the Pope to err and not have an impact on his authority.
 
I think it’s quite possible for a pope to err on a matter of excommunication. Popes in the past have been deceived into declaring that a particular person was orthodox when the person in question was in fact unorthodox (and then reversed their declaration upon learning the truth).

Cases such as this are often brought up by anti-Catholics in an effort to prove that papal infallibility is a false doctrine. All they prove though is that they don’t really understand what papal infallibility is. 😃

Papal infallibility simply does not mean that popes can never ever be wrong. It applies only to very specific instances, ex cathedra statements about faith and morals.
 
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hermit:
In the excommunication thread the consensus is that the Popes decision is final.

If a person is excommunicated erroneously, must God abide by the Pope’s decision?
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Hello hermit,

Jesus swears to the Apostles, blowing the Holy Spirit upon them, that any sin they hold bound on earth, He will hold bound in heaven. Can Jesus go back on His word and now loost a man’s sins in heaven that Apostolic Successors have called upon Him to hold bound?

If Jesus does this then what about His sworn promise of eternal life? Can He go back on this promise? Jesus is a God of His Word. You can count on His Words.

As to whether or not Church leaders are calling upon Jesus to “hold sins bound” in heaven of those who the Church excommunicates, this is unclear.

Obviously calling upon Jesus to hold a man bound to his sin when the man has not commited the sin would not condemn a man to hell.

If the man does have a sin and Jesus refuses to forgive the man due to His sworn oath to Apostolic Successors, is there anyway for the man to take his sin into heaven? No! If Jesus does not forgive you in heaven, you go to hell.

**NAB MAT 16:13 **

Jesus replied, “Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Then he strictly ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.NAB REV 1:16

A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: “There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but not I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world.”

NAB ISA 11:4

The Rule of Immanuel
He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.​
**NAB JOH 20:20 **

At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. “Peace be with you,” he said again. “As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” Then he breathed on them and said: “Recieve the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound.” NAB MAT 5:22

What I say to you is: everyone who grows angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; any man who uses abusive language toward his brother shall be** answerable to the Sanhedrin,** and if he holds him in contempt he risks the fires of Gehenna. NAB MAT 18:17

“If he ignores them, refer it to the church . If he ignores even the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. I assure you, whatever you declare bound on earth shall be held bound in heaven, and whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be held loosed in heaven.”

Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
 
Although it is correct to say that the Pope’s infallibility does not apply to everything he says or does, it is incorrect to say that he is infallible ONLY when speaking ex cathedra. The pope may also speak with normal infallibility under certain other criteria. He must be speaking on faith and morals; he must intend for the teaching to be to the whole Church; he must intend for the teaching to be binding. Those few times the Pope has spoken ex cathedra were usually for very important reasons, requiring a formal level of infallibility. Good, faithful Catholics obey the Pope’s teachings whether formally or normally infallible. An example of a normal infallible statement is the Pope’s decree regarding artificial birth control and abortion.
 
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