B
Buck_Crosswhite
Guest
Of course I’m Catholic. The word ‘tradition’ has two different spellings one is ‘tradition’ the other is ‘Tradition.’
Believing Tradition is a requirement to being Catholic.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Believing Tradition is a requirement to being Catholic.
K
Kropotkin
Guest
I think you should read up on the subject.Of course I’m Catholic. The word ‘tradition’ has two different spellings one is ‘tradition’ the other is ‘Tradition.’
Believing Tradition is a requirement to being Catholic.
Z
Zeno11
Guest
Satan’s greatest triumph is making people think he doesn’t exist.Hi everyone,
As I’m sure most of you are aware our modern conceptualisation of Satan is the product of theological evolution. In the Old Testament “Satan” was merely a righteous angel of God sent by God to test the faith of individuals; in fact the correct translation is “The Satan” (the adversary), and was a role that could be delegated to any angel.
For the most part The Church accepts that Satan represents a single being who is the absolute personification of evil; however I have seen nothing to suggest that the belief in a personal being called Satan is De Fide.
In Christ, through Mary
Kropotkin
Look to your Bible, as other posters have pointed out.
(Mat 4:1-10) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. {2} And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered. {3} And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. {4} But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. {5} Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, {6} And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. {7} Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. {8} Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; {9} And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. {10} Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Here is the narrative of the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness. Notice the personal pronoun “him” used in verses 7, 9, & 10. The word “him” is the word “autw” (auto) which is the same word used 3 times. It is a personal pronoun, singular and in the dative case. The dative case may also be referred to as the case of personal interest. In the three instances above it is used to express to whom or for whom the action of the verb is done. So we see in the 3 verses the words “said” and “saith” which are two verbs denoting action. We can also plainly see that the devil is the recipient of the action of those verbs. If Satan does not exist, then who was Jesus speaking to? His flesh? Impossible because the grammar will not allow it. The words of Jesus were aimed right at Satan and because the dative is used in this case, he was speaking to another being. The three uses of “him” are also singular which means the words of Christ were aimed at a single person.
In verse 3 we have the same scenario with the same word except for one difference. This time the tempter came to Christ, “to him.” So here the tempter was speaking to Christ which means, by the dative again, we have a dialogue taking place between two persons, Christ and Satan. Therefore, if someone wants to deny the existence of Satan, they must definitely cut the temptations of Christ out of their Bible.
(Mat 12:26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
If Satan does not exist, then how come the Bible is very explicit stating that Satan has a kingdom. The word “his” is the same word as we saw in Matthew 4 except this occurrence is not in the dative it is in the genitive case which shows ownership or possession. You see the personal pronoun is used here instead of the antecedent noun “Satan.” The word “himself” is also a personal pronoun except this word is in the accusative case which normally shows who is the receiver of the action of the verb. Both “cast out” and “divided” are the verbs in question with “himself” as the receiver of the action. So here we see that if Satan’s kingdom is divided or he casts himself out, his kingdom will fall. This language tells us we are dealing with a bona fide kingdom and not a mythological or medieval invention.
Finally, this is taken from an interview with Father Gabriele Amorth, an exorcist in Rome, originally published in the June 2000 issue of 30 Days, an Italian Catholic publication.
Q. But if one does not believe in the existence of Satan, does one’s faith remain intact, is it still the Catholic faith?
Fr. Amorth: No. I will tell you a story. When I met Don Pellegrino Ernetti for the first time, a celebrated exorcist who had practiced in Venice for forty years, I said to him, “If I could speak to the Pope, I would tell him that I meet too many bishops who do not believe in the devil.” The following afternoon, Father Ernetti came back to see me to tell me that that same morning he had been received by John Paul II. “Holiness,” he had said to him, “there is an exorcist here in Rome, Father Amorth who, if he met you, would tell you that he knows too many bishops who do not believe in the devil.” The Pope answered him briefly: “***He who does not believe in the devil does not believe in the Gospel.”
K
Kropotkin
Guest
Thank you so much for your well thought out response. Yes, our Lord is indeed referring to another being, but is it an entity that wields power aside from that of God? or is it an angel testing him, consistent with the Old Testament?Satan’s greatest triumph is making people think he doesn’t exist.
Look to your Bible, as other posters have pointed out.
(Mat 4:1-10) Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. {2} And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered. {3} And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. {4} But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. {5} Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, {6} And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. {7} Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. {8} Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; {9} And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. {10} Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Here is the narrative of the temptation of Jesus in the wilderness. Notice the personal pronoun “him” used in verses 7, 9, & 10. The word “him” is the word “autw” (auto) which is the same word used 3 times. It is a personal pronoun, singular and in the dative case. The dative case may also be referred to as the case of personal interest. In the three instances above it is used to express to whom or for whom the action of the verb is done. So we see in the 3 verses the words “said” and “saith” which are two verbs denoting action. We can also plainly see that the devil is the recipient of the action of those verbs. If Satan does not exist, then who was Jesus speaking to? His flesh? Impossible because the grammar will not allow it. The words of Jesus were aimed right at Satan and because the dative is used in this case, he was speaking to another being. The three uses of “him” are also singular which means the words of Christ were aimed at a single person.
In verse 3 we have the same scenario with the same word except for one difference. This time the tempter came to Christ, “to him.” So here the tempter was speaking to Christ which means, by the dative again, we have a dialogue taking place between two persons, Christ and Satan. Therefore, if someone wants to deny the existence of Satan, they must definitely cut the temptations of Christ out of their Bible.
(Mat 12:26) And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
If Satan does not exist, then how come the Bible is very explicit stating that Satan has a kingdom. The word “his” is the same word as we saw in Matthew 4 except this occurrence is not in the dative it is in the genitive case which shows ownership or possession. You see the personal pronoun is used here instead of the antecedent noun “Satan.” The word “himself” is also a personal pronoun except this word is in the accusative case which normally shows who is the receiver of the action of the verb. Both “cast out” and “divided” are the verbs in question with “himself” as the receiver of the action. So here we see that if Satan’s kingdom is divided or he casts himself out, his kingdom will fall. This language tells us we are dealing with a bona fide kingdom and not a mythological or medieval invention.
Finally, this is taken from an interview with Father Gabriele Amorth, an exorcist in Rome, originally published in the June 2000 issue of 30 Days, an Italian Catholic publication.
Q. But if one does not believe in the existence of Satan, does one’s faith remain intact, is it still the Catholic faith?
Fr. Amorth: No. I will tell you a story. When I met Don Pellegrino Ernetti for the first time, a celebrated exorcist who had practiced in Venice for forty years, I said to him, “If I could speak to the Pope, I would tell him that I meet too many bishops who do not believe in the devil.” The following afternoon, Father Ernetti came back to see me to tell me that that same morning he had been received by John Paul II. “Holiness,” he had said to him, “there is an exorcist here in Rome, Father Amorth who, if he met you, would tell you that he knows too many bishops who do not believe in the devil.” The Pope answered him briefly: “***He who does not believe in the devil does not believe in the Gospel.”
R
R_C
Guest
There are no “entities”: there is one Creator and the rest are creatures.Thank you so much for your well thought out response. Yes, our Lord is indeed referring to another being, but is it an entity that wields power aside from that of God? or is it an angel testing him, consistent with the Old Testament?
We know from sacred scriptures and from sacred tradition that Lucifer was an archangel who wanted to be like the Most High, and he was expelled from heaven by the archangel Michael (whose name literally means “Who is like the Most High?”) and is known ever since as “adversary”.
Notice my mention of sacred tradition: the Church has been exercising its ministry of expelling Satan and his fallen angels in the name of Christ for centuries, so we don’t just believe these truths, we know them.
Satan and his army is not “testing” God like some passages of the Scriptures may hint, he is just rebellious and in his permanent rejection of God he hates Him and all of mankind. He especially hates Christ - God made man - and all of us, because through his temptations we “all sinned and fell short of the grace of God”, yet Christ became man and took upon Himself all of our sins.
That is most agonizing for those fallen angels whom being “a bit higher” than man and having seen God face to face, have rejected Him eternally.
Once, when St. John of the Cross was healing a nun, he asked her to translate the phrase: "et Verbum caro factum est et habitavit in nobis. She replied that it meant that the Word became flesh and dwelt among you. He said: you are lying, the translation is “dwelt among us”, among us all. She yelled: “it is like I say, for he did not become flesh to dwell among us, but to dwell among you!” From this, the friar detected the influence of Satan and commanded him to depart immediately from the nun.
From that day - the day when the “prince of this world” was judged and condemned - we were given the power to resist the devil and our pastors are given the power to expel him in the name of Christ.
So the devil and his demons - all angels who were created good, or actually very good, and whose behavior and radical sin is what makes them evil - simply hates us and wants us to reject God - the state of hell, a state in which we enter by our own free choice, for the Lord of infinite mercy wants us all at His presence:
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Z
Zeno11
Guest
He wields power:Thank you so much for your well thought out response. Yes, our Lord is indeed referring to another being, but is it an entity that wields power aside from that of God? or is it an angel testing him, consistent with the Old Testament?
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and*** from the power of Satan*** unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." -Acts 26:18
“Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices” (II Corinthians 2:11).
*Notes: “device” = has to do “a perception”, “a purposed disposition” = device, mind, thoughts. Satan tries to get control of our mind, our thoughts.
“The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy . . . .” (John 10:10)
He blinds the minds of unbelievers.
II Corinthians 4:3-4
He assaults believers to get them to fall from God’s grace.
Ephesians 6:12
Zechariah 3:1
Galatians 3:1-2
He tempts men to sin.
Genesis 3:1-6
I Chronicles 21:1
Matthew 4:1
He uses surprise. Exodus 17:8 (descendants of Esau)
He attacks at the point of our weakness. I John 2:16
He attacks at the point of our strengths. I Chronicles. 21:1.
He uses aggression. I Peter 5:8 (Isaiah 5:29), Matthew 11:12.
He steals the good seed of the Word. Matthew 13:19.
He sows tares (the children of evil). Matthew 13:38-39.
He inflicts disease. Job 2:7, Luke 13:16.
He initiates death and destruction. Job 1:12-19.
He brings accusations against believers. Revelation 12:10
He induces mental and emotional disorders. Mark 5:1-6
. Satan’s power is limited.
He is limited in his power of destruction. Job 1:9-12
He is limited in his ability to bring temptations. I Corinthians 10:13
Satan’s power is real.
He beguiled Eve. II Corinthians 11:3
He uses magical powers. Exodus 7:11-12
He empowered a witch to bring forth a spirit. I Samuel 28:12-20
He wars against the angels of God. Daniel 10:13
He is called a god of forces. Daniel 11:13
He is given power to war with the tribulation saints. Revelation 13:7.
He has** power** to cause people to worship the beast. Revelation 13:12-15.
K
Kropotkin
Guest
If one were to adopt an original OTHe wields power:
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and*** from the power of Satan*** unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." -Acts 26:18
“Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices” (II Corinthians 2:11).
*Notes: “device” = has to do “a perception”, “a purposed disposition” = device, mind, thoughts. Satan tries to get control of our mind, our thoughts.
“The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy . . . .” (John 10:10)
He blinds the minds of unbelievers.
II Corinthians 4:3-4
He assaults believers to get them to fall from God’s grace.
Ephesians 6:12
Zechariah 3:1
Galatians 3:1-2
He tempts men to sin.
Genesis 3:1-6
I Chronicles 21:1
Matthew 4:1
He uses surprise. Exodus 17:8 (descendants of Esau)
He attacks at the point of our weakness. I John 2:16
He attacks at the point of our strengths. I Chronicles. 21:1.
He uses aggression. I Peter 5:8 (Isaiah 5:29), Matthew 11:12.
He steals the good seed of the Word. Matthew 13:19.
He sows tares (the children of evil). Matthew 13:38-39.
He inflicts disease. Job 2:7, Luke 13:16.
He initiates death and destruction. Job 1:12-19.
He brings accusations against believers. Revelation 12:10
He induces mental and emotional disorders. Mark 5:1-6
. Satan’s power is limited.
He is limited in his power of destruction. Job 1:9-12
He is limited in his ability to bring temptations. I Corinthians 10:13
Satan’s power is real.
He beguiled Eve. II Corinthians 11:3
He uses magical powers. Exodus 7:11-12
He empowered a witch to bring forth a spirit. I Samuel 28:12-20
He wars against the angels of God. Daniel 10:13
He is called a god of forces. Daniel 11:13
He is given power to war with the tribulation saints. Revelation 13:7.
He has** power** to cause people to worship the beast. Revelation 13:12-15.
conception of Satan, don’t you think that all of those could be taken figuratively? As a temptation which is given to us by God or by our nature?
Z
Zeno11
Guest
NoIf one were to adopt an original OT
conception of Satan, don’t you think that all of those could be taken figuratively? As a temptation which is given to us by God or by our nature?
K
Kropotkin
Guest
Can you find any Church documents to support your opinion?
R
R_C
Guest
You can’t be serious.Can you find any Church documents to support your opinion?
Who do you think answered to Christ: “my name is Legion, because we are many”? The poor guy’s sins?
Who do you think Christ addressed when He said: “Be quiet! Come out of the man”
As for documents, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (link to the section) states:
Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.”
Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God.
K
Kropotkin
Guest
Right, so no then.You can’t be serious.
Who do you think answered to Christ: “my name is Legion, because we are many”? The poor guy’s sins?
Who do you think Christ addressed when He said: “Be quiet! Come out of the man”
As for documents, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (link to the section) states:
B
Buck_Crosswhite
Guest
Kropotkin, I’d like to ask you why your are trying so desparately to convince yourself that Satan doesn’t exist. Also, are you trying to convince yourself that hell doesn’t exist?Can you find any Church documents to support your opinion?
K
Kropotkin
Guest
No desperation: I don’t mind believing in “Satan” if scripture and The Church support it, but from what I’ve learnt, and from what I’ve heard here there is no proof for such a belief.Kropotkin, I’d like to ask you why your are trying so desparately to convince yourself that Satan doesn’t exist. Also, are you trying to convince yourself that hell doesn’t exist?
R
R_C
Guest
You asked if all those things could be taken figuratively.Right, so no then.
Zeno11 said: “no”.
Then you asked for some proof in the sacred tradition.
And the quotes I gave you - from the Scriptures and from the tradition - show that the Church believes that Satan is a creature, a fallen angel.
So, indeed “no”. He is not a metaphor or anything, he exists.
B
Buck_Crosswhite
Guest
The opposite of this is true. The new testament deals with satan extensively. Forget the OT. The Church deals with this completely.No desperation: I don’t mind believing in “Satan” if scripture and The Church support it, but from what I’ve learnt, and from what I’ve heard here there is no proof for such a belief.
L
Lrning
Guest
Why would a Catholic reject the teaching of the Church, as explained in the CCC, in order to adopt an “OT conception of Satan”? Especially when the CCC was compiled to foster unity in faith.If one were to adopt an original OT
conception of Satan, don’t you think that all of those could be taken figuratively? As a temptation which is given to us by God or by our nature?
“…confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life. At the same time it draws attention to the eager desire of all to make their contribution so that the Christian faith, whose essential and necessary elements are summarized in the Catechism, can be presented to the people of our day in the most suitable way possible…The Church now has at her disposal this new, authoritative exposition of the one and perennial apostolic faith, and it will serve as a “valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion” and as a “sure norm for teaching the faith,” as well as a “sure and authentic reference text” for preparing local catechisms…Through the harmonious and complementary efforts of all the ranks of the People of God, may this Catechism be known and shared by everyone, so that the unity in faith whose supreme model and origin is found in the Unity of the Trinity may be strengthened and extended to the ends of the earth.”
Pope John Paul II, Laetamur Magnopere
VII. “But Deliver Us from Evil”
**2851 In this petition, evil is not an abstraction, but refers to a person, Satan, the Evil One, the angel who opposes God. **The devil (dia-bolos) is the one who “throws himself across” God’s plan and his work of salvation accomplished in Christ. (391)
2852 “A murderer from the beginning,… a liar and the father of lies,” Satan is “the deceiver of the whole world.”165 Through him sin and death entered the world and by his definitive defeat all creation will be “freed from the corruption of sin and death.”166 Now “we know that anyone born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.”167
The Lord who has taken away your sin and pardoned your faults also protects you and keeps you from the wiles of your adversary the devil, so that the enemy, who is accustomed to leading into sin, may not surprise you. One who entrusts himself to God does not dread the devil. “If God is for us, who is against us?”168
Z
Zeno11
Guest
‘It is in fact in the teaching of the Gospel and as something at the heart of the faith that the existence of the demonic world is shown to be a dogmatic datum’. from Christian Faith and Demonology*.Can you find any Church documents to support your opinion?
You can read the whole thing on the Vatican website at http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...c_19750626_fede-cristiana-demonologia_en.html
K
Kropotkin
Guest
I never asked for proof from within Sacred Tradition, as I know what has been believed in the past, I want evidence that such a belief is de fide. However I have realised now that there is no such proof.You asked if all those things could be taken figuratively.
Zeno11 said: “no”.
Then you asked for some proof in the sacred tradition.
And the quotes I gave you - from the Scriptures and from the tradition - show that the Church believes that Satan is a creature, a fallen angel.
So, indeed “no”. He is not a metaphor or anything, he exists.
L
Lrning
Guest
Clearly, the Church currently teaches that Satan is a person, not an abstraction.I never asked for proof from within Sacred Tradition, as I know what has been believed in the past, I want evidence that such a belief is de fide. However I have realised now that there is no such proof.
Z
Zeno11
Guest
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19750626_fede-cristiana-demonologia_en.htmlI never asked for proof from within Sacred Tradition, as I know what has been believed in the past, I want evidence that such a belief is de fide. However I have realised now that there is no such proof.
If this doesn’t bring you straight to the link, search the site for Christian Faith and Demonology
- Status
- Not open for further replies.