Must I believe in Satan?

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Hi everyone,

As I’m sure most of you are aware our modern conceptualisation of Satan is the product of theological evolution. In the Old Testament “Satan” was merely a righteous angel of God sent by God to test the faith of individuals; in fact the correct translation is “The Satan” (the adversary), and was a role that could be delegated to any angel.

For the most part The Church accepts that Satan represents a single being who is the absolute personification of evil; however I have seen nothing to suggest that the belief in a personal being called Satan is De Fide.

In Christ, through Mary

Kropotkin
 
Hi everyone,

As I’m sure most of you are aware our modern conceptualisation of Satan is the product of theological evolution. In the Old Testament “Satan” was merely a righteous angel of God sent by God to test the faith of individuals; in fact the correct translation is “The Satan” (the adversary), and was a role that could be delegated to any angel.

For the most part The Church accepts that Satan represents a single being who is the absolute personification of evil; however I have seen nothing to suggest that the belief in a personal being called Satan is De Fide.

In Christ, through Mary

Kropotkin
Yes. All Catholics are obliged to believe in Satan. It would be heresy to reject the teaching.
 
Hi everyone,

As I’m sure most of you are aware our modern conceptualisation of Satan is the product of theological evolution. In the Old Testament “Satan” was merely a righteous angel of God sent by God to test the faith of individuals; in fact the correct translation is “The Satan” (the adversary), and was a role that could be delegated to any angel.

For the most part The Church accepts that Satan represents a single being who is the absolute personification of evil; however I have seen nothing to suggest that the belief in a personal being called Satan is De Fide.

In Christ, through Mary

Kropotkin
*Luke 10:16 *** (Jesus to the 72 apostles and disciples) Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."

17 The seventy (-two) returned rejoicing, and said, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us because of your name.”

18 Jesus said, "I have observed** Satan **fall like lightning from the sky.

19 Behold, I have given you the power ‘to tread upon serpents’ and scorpions and upon the full force of*** the enemy*** and nothing will harm you.

20 Nevertheless, do not rejoice because the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice because your names are written in heaven."

You have free will. But Jesus “believed in Satan” (his** existence** that is!) and mentioned him in relation to his servants casting out demons as part of their mission.

This coming Sunday’s Gospel is similar with the apostles casting out demons, annointing and healing others.

You’re not quite right about the OT either. Right off, in Genesis the snake is the devil (as is revealed elsewhere in scripture); AND wasn’t sent by God to test Adam and Eve - because God punishes the snake.

By the end of the Bible (Revelation), the “snake” has become a full-blown dragon.

I will say THIS. Your focus needn’t be Satan. And some people focus on him too much perhaps. But scripture gives warnings to wear spiritual armor, resist the fiery darts of the evil one, etc. So it’s probably not a good idea to go about trumpeting that there IS no Satan - or that he’s other than “the enemy” < as Jesus states above.

Everyone has some article of faith that is difficult for them. We need not delay our entry into the Church, or Church leadership, or service until we score 100 % on an advanced theology paper or something.

The “Satan” I’d been taught about is not God’s equal at all - but a free will being that led a rebellion that still goes on. It is further written of Satan that he wants what God has (among those things worship - He even tempted Jesus to do just that).

Jesus calls him a liar and the “Father of Lies”. Whereas Jesus calls Himself “The Truth”.

If God calls Himself “I AM” (as he does to Moses); Satan whispers “I AM NOT!”

If one believes “He is NOT” – that one might wear no spiritual armor and succumb to the fiery darts of Satan when they come.

Often when one does NOT believe in Satan … an unbelief in Hell follows. And Hell is the consequence for unrepented mortal sin - and WHAT Jesus saved us FROM by dying for us.

If we open ourselves to the Holy Spirit, He will show us the proper attitude. We are different parts of the Body of Christ after all, and are not required to do extensive study on the doctrines pertaining to Satan, demons, hell and such. In fact, those who do must watch out lest they verge into an attraction for the occult.

The occult DOES exist. But is forbidden knowledge destructive to us. Eve learned the hard way (but I hope she’s in heaven by NOW!). 🙂

The Nicene Creed (a short summary of the faith) has 12 articles. Jesus “descended into hell” is a phrase contained in it. Satan is not mentioned. “Born of the Virgin Mary” is contained in it. The Immaculate Conception and Assumption are not.

This doesn’t make Satan’s existence nor details of Mary’s “graces” false. So one ought not teach in opposition to them. But making those things agenda toppers in one’s walk of faith would seem to be an elective - not a mandatory course of study for salvation.

Satan is mentioned 53 times by name in the New American Bible. When referred to as “the devil” or by other names the total swells to 121. Never is he called righteous - although there was a time before he rebelled when he had a place in heaven.

"Any Angel might test " is interesting. The Angel of Death the night of the first Passover is not called Satan or the Devil. But you seem to make reference to that kind of Angel, who obeys God and sometimes punishes man.

In Job, the devil is depicted as the enemy of man (the man Job) but in that case (and as you made reference to ) God DOES use Satan to test Job. More to teach Satan a lesson about the heroism and steadfastness of Job it appears though (when one reads the whole book of Job).

Job’s restoration (here on Earth and presumably later and ever after) is a message of hope
to those faithfully going through the trials of this life. We don’t call him St. Job. But like Abraham, Moses and Elijah he is one. :clapping:
 
Thanks so much for the post CaptFun, you made some great points.

I completely agree that one ought not focus too much upon the issue. I don’t reject the teaching, as it is the teaching of THE Church, however I do question it. In the Old Testament any attribution of power to any being other than God, or those under His command, would be heresy, and I’m inclined to agree.

I just don’t see any reference to Satan that can’t be taken figuratively; particularly in The Apocalypse, which is full of symbolism. Nor can I find any Church document that states that the belief in a personal being called Satan is De Fide
 
I have seen nothing to suggest that the belief in a personal being called Satan is De Fide.
Neither have I.

Catholic Answers has a short article on this question here.

The “money quote” is from the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship (quoting Pope Paul-6):
It is a departure from the picture provided by biblical and Church teaching to refuse to acknowledge the devil’s existence; to regard him as . . . a conceptual and fanciful personification of the unknown causes of our misfortunes. . . . Exegetes and theologians should not be deaf to this warning.
This is NOT the language of de Fide dogma and anathemas. A “departure from the picture?” “Should not be deaf to this warning?”

That’s pretty lame - I mean tame.
 
This is NOT the language of de Fide dogma and anathemas. A “departure from the picture?” “Should not be deaf to this warning?”

That’s pretty lame - I mean tame.
Yeah exactly, that’s my point. Thanks for the post

By the way, is anyone able to tell me where in scripture it says that Satan fell from heaven? I can’t seem to find it, yet we all believe it.
 
Yeah exactly, that’s my point. Thanks for the post

By the way, is anyone able to tell me where in scripture it says that Satan fell from heaven? I can’t seem to find it, yet we all believe it.
 
Yeah exactly, that’s my point. Thanks for the post

By the way, is anyone able to tell me where in scripture it says that Satan fell from heaven? I can’t seem to find it, yet we all believe it.
Luke 10:18 Jesus said, “I have observed Satan fall like lightning from the sky."

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? How art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?

Rev 12:9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and Satan who seduceth the whole world, and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
 
YOU are the OP. Do you really want to throw your own post off-topic?
Very good point. However I believe the two issues are linked; I think the story of Satan falling from heaven is unfounded and perpetuates a distorted notion of “Satan”.
 
Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, who didst rise in the morning? How art thou fallen to the earth, that didst wound the nations?

Rev 12:9 And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and Satan who seduceth the whole world, and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
If you read the Isaiah quote in context you’ll see it’s referring to a Babylonian King; and almost all scholars agree that the dragon in The Apocalypse is Nero not Satan.
 
Yeah exactly, that’s my point. Thanks for the post

By the way, is anyone able to tell me where in scripture it says that Satan fell from heaven? I can’t seem to find it, yet we all believe it.
I am reading this thread with interest. Nowhere in scripture will you even find that Satan was/is an angel.
 
If you read the Isaiah quote in context you’ll see it’s referring to a Babylonian King; and almost all scholars agree that the dragon in The Apocalypse is Nero not Satan.
That is not correct and I noticed you made no comment on the actual words of Jesus. Are you saying he lied?

Luke 10:18 Jesus said, “I have observed Satan fall like lightning from the sky."
 
That is not correct and I noticed you made no comment on the actual words of Jesus. Are you saying he lied?

Luke 10:18 Jesus said, “I have observed Satan fall like lightning from the sky."
I respect your opinion. However I have a BA and a MA in Theology from a Catholic university, and I disagree with your opinion; I think it is very rude to accuse someone who disagrees with your opinion of calling our Lord a liar, very cheap shot. It may be possible that your interpretation of Luke is not perfect, unlikely I know but possible.
 
From the Catechism:

II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature - to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275
 
From the Catechism:

II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature - to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275
Not all the contents of The Catechism constitute de fide teachings, but rather the current position of The Church, many things are up for debate. In fact the then Cardinal Ratzinger as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith stated that it is lawful to debate the issue of “Adam’s” literal or figurative meaning.
 
Given your credentials in theology from a Catholic university, how is it you would question a teaching of the Catholic church?
 
Given your credentials in theology from a Catholic university, how is it you would question a teaching of the Catholic church?
Any Catholic is free to question teachings that are not a matter of de fide.
 
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