Must newlyweds use NFP?

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ExGratia, it’s great to hear that you and your fiance are going into your marriage wholeheartedly being open to God’s plan for your marriage and life. I tried to locate all your subsequent posts so as not to miss any additional information you were providing, so I do realize that you have decided to learn more about NFP and have been charting. From my perspective, I think this is a good idea and I support your decision. Still, I’d like to share my story if it’ll equip you with even slightly more information so that you and your fiance can together make the best decision for your marriage.

My husband and I were married recently, and throughout our engagement/marriage preparation, were felt excited to begin our marriage and start a family. We learned NFP during our marriage preparation, and have continued ever since. I’m glad we did that because by the time we started our marriage, our NFP practice had already become a habit, and we could focus on all the other changes and adjustments marriage (and being homeowners and career-people) brings. Learning NFP, and thereby learning more about our reproductive systems, fertility and my cycles, felt empowering because now we were in tune with what my body was telling us each day.

So, after getting married, and after several months had passed, and after becoming more and more familiar with the patterns of my cycles, we were able to immediately notice the absence of ovulation signs from my charts when it started. And we were able to visit the OBGYN with that specific concern. Although she said that for my age, 8 months of trying without conception is not a concern at all, but is in fact quite common, and 1.5 years is really the average trying rate, she did go ahead with initial fertility testing with a blood test for me. The results showed abnormal hormone levels, which affect ovulations and cycles. I have been referred to an endocrinologist to treat my hormone levels, and then hopefully we can get back on track with trying to start a family.

So, to us, knowing NFP is a blessing, and it is definitely one of the fibers in the strong bond that holds my husband and me (and the Lord, of course) close together.
 
CSLP said:
ExGratia, it’s great to hear that you and your fiance are going into your marriage wholeheartedly being open to God’s plan for your marriage and life. I tried to locate all your subsequent posts so as not to miss any additional information you were providing, so I do realize that you have decided to learn more about NFP and have been charting. From my perspective, I think this is a good idea and I support your decision. Still, I’d like to share my story if it’ll equip you with even slightly more information so that you and your fiance can together make the best decision for your marriage.

My husband and I were married recently, and throughout our engagement/marriage preparation, were felt excited to begin our marriage and start a family. We learned NFP during our marriage preparation, and have continued ever since. I’m glad we did that because by the time we started our marriage, our NFP practice had already become a habit, and we could focus on all the other changes and adjustments marriage (and being homeowners and career-people) brings. Learning NFP, and thereby learning more about our reproductive systems, fertility and my cycles, felt empowering because now we were in tune with what my body was telling us each day.

So, after getting married, and after several months had passed, and after becoming more and more familiar with the patterns of my cycles, we were able to immediately notice the absence of ovulation signs from my charts when it started. And we were able to visit the OBGYN with that specific concern. Although she said that for my age, 8 months of trying without conception is not a concern at all, but is in fact quite common, and 1.5 years is really the average trying rate, she did go ahead with initial fertility testing with a blood test for me. The results showed abnormal hormone levels, which affect ovulations and cycles. I have been referred to an endocrinologist to treat my hormone levels, and then hopefully we can get back on track with trying to start a family.

So, to us, knowing NFP is a blessing, and it is definitely one of the fibers in the strong bond that holds my husband and me (and the Lord, of course) close together.
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I had heard that NFP can be a great way to recognize abnormalities in your health and I thank you for sharing your story. I am praying for you (I have a feeling you’ll do the same for me). Your final sentence also struck me as very poignant and anything that adds to that bond you have is priceless.
 
Responsible procreation is one of principles of natural and sacramental marriage.

Studying the physiology of woman and studying the physiology of man in order to understand the natural laws of procreation make party of human reason and the human intelligence wanted by God. For me, to think the contrary is a sign of obscurantism, that is an offense to the human intelligence. That is not very catholic.
The wife has to understand her body and the body of her husband. The husband has to understand his body and the body of his wife.

Marital act is unitive and proceative. If you want to have conjugal sex, it is for unity between wife and husband (the marital bonding, the expression of love, to give pleasure and to receive pleasure in the respect of the natural law).
Also, that is for a potential procreation (life opening). There is a different between to welcome the life and to do life (procreation is not reproduction).

Thus, NFP is not objectively sinful and it is not contraception. Per se, it is okay in the marriage.

Be careful with the legalism, the externalism, the pharisaism and the theoretical providentialism in the marriage.
 
pharisaism and the theoretical providentialism in the marriage.

I’m sorry but could you please define what you mean by pharisaism and theoretical providentialism - I’m not trying to be stupid or anything, I"m really trying to understand what point you’re trying to get across.
God Bless
Rye
 
ryecroft said:
pharisaism and the theoretical providentialism in the marriage.
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I’m sorry but could you please define what you mean by pharisaism and theoretical providentialism - I’m not trying to be stupid or anything, I"m really trying to understand what point you’re trying to get across.
God Bless
Rye

A link:
theuniversityconcourse.com/article/1915.html

The teaching of the Church with respect to family planning is straightforward, clear and easily summarized.
  1. Spouses must be willing to accept children lovingly.
  2. Spouses may not practice contraception.
  3. Taking into consideration a whole range and variety of factors, including physical, economic, psychological and sociological factors, spouses may do well to practice Natural Family Planning to space children and/or limit family size, provided that they do so with due moral seriousness—with a generous, responsible and prayerful sense of what they owe to God, to one another, to their children and to society.
That’s all.

The theoretical providentialists wish there were more to it than that. They wish they could find quotations in Humanae Vitae to support their view of the matter, as, for instance:

“NFP, while distinguishable from contraception in not being absolutely immoral, is seldom licit and always regrettable.”

“Most married couples (especially in the wealthy West) are perfectly capable of having large families, and most reasons cited for not having large families are bogus.”

“Couples who choose to have large families are making the religiously and morally superior choice.”

“Since selfishness is such a near and present danger, no one should practice NFP without first consulting a priest.”

“The following do not constitute valid reasons for using NFP: wanting to finish your education; wanting to save up for children’s future education; being tired; being stressed; being burdened by debt; having to move; having a small, crowded house; being depressed; feeling overwhelmed, etc.”

Theoretical providentialists would like to find such statements in Church documents, but they can’t. They are not there, because the Church does not want them there. They are not there because “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.” The Church lays on each married couple the solemn responsibility to discern well for themselves, and on all of us the solemn injunction against presuming to know what is right for others. She resists going further on purpose—not because there are so few people willing to hack the rigors of real Christianity, but because real Christianity is, precisely, freedom.

The chronic temptation of pharisaism…
 
fpt said:
I’m sorry but could you please define what you mean by pharisaism and theoretical providentialism - I’m not trying to be stupid or anything, I"m really trying to understand what point you’re trying to get across.
God Bless
Rye
Click to expand...
A link:
theuniversityconcourse.com/article/1915.html

The teaching of the Church with respect to family planning is straightforward, clear and easily summarized.
  1. Spouses must be willing to accept children lovingly.
  2. Spouses may not practice contraception.
  3. Taking into consideration a whole range and variety of factors, including physical, economic, psychological and sociological factors, spouses may do well to practice Natural Family Planning to space children and/or limit family size, provided that they do so with due moral seriousness—with a generous, responsible and prayerful sense of what they owe to God, to one another, to their children and to society.
That’s all.

The theoretical providentialists wish there were more to it than that. They wish they could find quotations in Humanae Vitae to support their view of the matter, as, for instance:

“NFP, while distinguishable from contraception in not being absolutely immoral, is seldom licit and always regrettable.”

“Most married couples (especially in the wealthy West) are perfectly capable of having large families, and most reasons cited for not having large families are bogus.”

“Couples who choose to have large families are making the religiously and morally superior choice.”

“Since selfishness is such a near and present danger, no one should practice NFP without first consulting a priest.”

“The following do not constitute valid reasons for using NFP: wanting to finish your education; wanting to save up for children’s future education; being tired; being stressed; being burdened by debt; having to move; having a small, crowded house; being depressed; feeling overwhelmed, etc.”

Theoretical providentialists would like to find such statements in Church documents, but they can’t. They are not there, because the Church does not want them there. They are not there because “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.” The Church lays on each married couple the solemn responsibility to discern well for themselves, and on all of us the solemn injunction against presuming to know what is right for others. She resists going further on purpose—not because there are so few people willing to hack the rigors of real Christianity, but because real Christianity is, precisely, freedom.

The chronic temptation of pharisaism…

When I looked up the definition (figuring it had something to do with the Pharisees - but when I looked it up it said “self-righteousness about adhering to rules: hypocritical, self-righteous, or obsessive behavior or attitudes toward the observing of rules and formalities” - so I wasn’t exactly sure exactly what you were referring to - I must say, I am glad the Church didn’t go any farther (with specifying as this group apparentely would like them to) as I believe it would detrimental to families if at the very least depression were not a valid reason or not having enough to raise children with were not valid reasons to put off having children - to me, personally, saying that they are not valid reasons borders on irresponsibility on their parts.
God Bless
Rye
 
fpt said:
Responsible procreation is one of principles of natural and sacramental marriage.
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And responsible procreation does not require the use of NFP. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children… it is not a requirement, it is something the couple can discern whether or not they need to do so.
fpt said:
A link:
theuniversityconcourse.com/article/1915.html

The teaching of the Church with respect to family planning is straightforward, clear and easily summarized.
  1. Spouses must be willing to accept children lovingly.
  2. Spouses may not practice contraception.
  3. Taking into consideration a whole range and variety of factors, including physical, economic, psychological and sociological factors, spouses may do well to practice Natural Family Planning to space children and/or limit family size, provided that they do so with due moral seriousness—with a generous, responsible and prayerful sense of what they owe to God, to one another, to their children and to society.
That’s all.

The theoretical providentialists wish there were more to it than that. They wish they could find quotations in Humanae Vitae to support their view of the matter, as, for instance:

“NFP, while distinguishable from contraception in not being absolutely immoral, is seldom licit and always regrettable.”

“Most married couples (especially in the wealthy West) are perfectly capable of having large families, and most reasons cited for not having large families are bogus.”

“Couples who choose to have large families are making the religiously and morally superior choice.”

“Since selfishness is such a near and present danger, no one should practice NFP without first consulting a priest.”

“The following do not constitute valid reasons for using NFP: wanting to finish your education; wanting to save up for children’s future education; being tired; being stressed; being burdened by debt; having to move; having a small, crowded house; being depressed; feeling overwhelmed, etc.”

Theoretical providentialists would like to find such statements in Church documents, but they can’t. They are not there, because the Church does not want them there. They are not there because “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free.” The Church lays on each married couple the solemn responsibility to discern well for themselves, and on all of us the solemn injunction against presuming to know what is right for others. She resists going further on purpose—not because there are so few people willing to hack the rigors of real Christianity, but because real Christianity is, precisely, freedom.

The chronic temptation of pharisaism…
Click to expand...
Of course, each couple has to discern themselves, with a formed conscience, etc. but we have to acknowledge as well, then, that no one can go around discerning it for other, like telling others that, for example, wanting to save for their children’s education is a just cause (or that all couples should avoid when they first marry). Avoiding children or not is a decision with eternal repercussions, and is one a couple has to make, and is one that will be on their shoulders.
 
Responsible procreation in the marriage, what is it? In my point of view , it is to decide together (wife and husband) if this is good, fair, holy and useful to have a baby for the couple, for the wife, for the husband and for the kids already here.

When I say good, fair, holy and useful, I mean in three senses (moral, religious and material).

The choice must be in function of several elements: social context, medical context, financial context, emotionnal context…

Sorry, but wife is not only a mother, she is a love, a sweetheart, a lover (mistress), a girlfriend, woman. Procreation is not reproduction.

the same for the husband, he is not only a genitor…etc.

Moderation and finding a balance are a noble objectives between the different dimensions of each one.
 
lifeisbeautiful said:
And responsible procreation does not require the use of NFP. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children… it is not a requirement, it is something the couple can discern whether or not they need to do so.

Of course, each couple has to discern themselves, with a formed conscience, etc. but we have to acknowledge as well, then, that no one can go around discerning it for other, like telling others that, for example, wanting to save for their children’s education is a just cause (or that all couples should avoid when they first marry). Avoiding children or not is a decision with eternal repercussions, and is one a couple has to make, and is one that will be on their shoulders.
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Discerning is a requirement (moral obligation : see the relationship between spouses is from the natural contract, and the moral duty is from the natural institution), are you okay with that? The morality choice is function of the context (material, medical, financial, social, cultural, educative…etc).

Sometimes, it can be objectively sinful to try to make a baby: no charity for the couple, for kids, for wife or the husband. Thus NFP, could be a moral obligation and or a moral duty.

Sometimes, it can be objectively sinful to avoid a baby.

Finding balance is responsable procreation.

Marriage is not only for baby and conjugal sex the same.
 
My purpose is to open a debate on the types of doctrines (doxa) or practices (praxis) within catholic marriage…

Pharisianism, Legalism and Juridicism, Externalism, Prejudicism; Moralism, Scrupulism, Dolorism; Pessimism, Encratism, Manicheism, Catharism, Jansenism, Rigorism, Puritanism, Neo-puritanism, Prudism, Prudishness, Victorianism, Neo-victorianism; Obscuranticism, Absolute Mythologism, Tabouism ; Sexism, Masculinism, Misogynism, Machism, Radical Feminism, Misandrism, Absolute Physiologism, Gender Theory; Absolute Procreationsim, Theoretical Providentialism and Quiverfull movement; Primary Anti-personalism

…. in order to know if in the XXI century there are many catholic couples and catholic thinkers, and christian couples and christian thinkers who teach, who promote, who live with in the conjugal life.

Topics of family life:
  • Responsible procreation (NFP, take care or educate, debate on the theological and philosophical basis of Humanae vitae);
  • Finalities of marriage (primary purposes, secondary purposes before vatican II it seems - to verify in the details - or the same level like in Humanae Vitae);
  • Conjugal act (general meaning, meaning of sexual pleasure, meaning of conjugal orgasm - why, what for - ; material element, intellectual element, when, where, how before and after the act itself; the limits of sexual pleasure - how to evaluate the moderation - ; wife impotence, husband impotence in the catholic meaning);
  • Wife role and husband role in the couple and in the family;
For some years I have been reading about the wedding and its different topics (books, e-books, articles, and blogs, wedsites, and internet forums) and it seems to me that catholic people are too much rigid or too much liberal. There are catholic disinformation, catholic illiteracy. People are not enough educated in their religion (bad interpretation too strict or too liberal).

On this forum and on the others catholic forums there are approaches that for me are strange.

I have phrases and commentaries coming catholic couples, coming from christian couples or catholic thinkers, that are so different, no compatible. To discern correctly without ideology, without bad basis, it is difficult.

Often true devout catholic couples seem to be scrupulous, very pessimist, see the sin everywhere. In fact, they would want… I can not say. Conjugal intimacy would be only tolerable.

I would like to debate with catholic lay persons about that and to share.
 
fpt said:
Sometimes, it can be objectively sinful to try to make a baby: no charity for the couple, for kids, for wife or the husband. Thus NFP, could be a moral obligation and or a moral duty.
/QUOTE]

I would say that in extreme circumstances, abstinence would be the moral duty not NFP. If the situation is so grave, it makes no sense to risk a pregnancy.
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fpt said:
Discerning is a requirement (moral obligation : see the relationship between spouses is from the natural contract, and the moral duty is from the natural institution), are you okay with that? The morality choice is function of the context (material, medical, financial, social, cultural, educative…etc).

Sometimes, it can be objectively sinful to try to make a baby: no charity for the couple, for kids, for wife or the husband. Thus NFP, could be a moral obligation and or a moral duty.

Sometimes, it can be objectively sinful to avoid a baby.

Finding balance is responsable procreation.

Marriage is not only for baby and conjugal sex the same.
Click to expand...
A couple may discern they do not need NFP throughout their whole marriage. Some may find themselves in situations where they need to use it for the rest of their fertile years. That is the beauty of NFP (for avoiding), it is there so couples can use it if they need it. It is not a moral obligation to find a time to use NFP to avoid. It is a moral obligation to make sure you have a good reason when you do avoid. I am not sure what you mean by finding balance… would you consider this family to have found that balance?:
catholicnewsagency.com/news/mother-of-six-priests-and-four-religious-sisters-mourned-in-india/

Addressing your other post, Sex is a beautiful wonderful thing that God made. Saying NFP is not a requirement for every couple, that there may be couples that do not find themselves needing to us it for whatever period of time, or for their whole marriage, is not incompatible with this:
2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:
The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146
2363 The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family. The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.
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Per se, is it possible that one couple desires too much children? Wife must take the control on her hormons. Wife is not only a mother, I mean a uterus. NFP is one part of responsible procreation. Couple have to be prudent on conjugal act and on the procreation. It is proceation not reproduction.

It is not a moral obligation to find a time to use NFP to avoid. WHY???
 
I have been married for 3 years and have never considered using NFP. I strongly believe that each child is such a blessing and a true gift from God! I think about mary and her situation and most of the scenarios that I can come up with do not come close!
We also have to realise that things do not wind up as we plan them!
I concieved on my honeymoon and miscarried 2 months later, then it took us 13 months before I concieved again.
Then I concieved 1 month after giving birth which ended in miscarriage again, now I found out I am pregnant after around 6 months.
I was20 years old when we got married and was warned that I would end up with 20 kids by the time I was 40 if I did not use birth control…this is not reality at all…possible…yes but not normative.
There is no other better feeling in the world than to be a Mother…I thank God for my little guy everyday.
There is also the physical aspect…sex is just amazing during those few days…even if I was infertile…it is a rewarding time!
I also look at the eternal aspect…what I do today has ripple effects for eternity

Naomi
 
If you’re (and by you’re I mean BOTH of you) really ready to have kids than by all means go for it. Personally, I know of Priests who will say a serious reason can be that you’re just getting married and would prefer to spend a couple of years just being with each other without pregnancy or kids. Our Priest actually agreed this was a really good idea that it seemed to strengthen the bond in the marriages he preformed - but warned us that whatever method we used to put off having kids or spacing (we began with a 5 year plan - for some that’s too long for some not enough) make sure we knew that nothing was 100% if we were active (which most newlywed are). I know I’ll get disagreement on here and that’s fine- I really believe couples need to look at when they get married and ask themselves (which granted you already seem to have done)-
" would we be happy if we got pregnant straight off or would we prefer to have some time as a newly married couple just to ourselves ?" Most couples I’ve known in the Church actually say they would like that time together (and no I don’t believe the 9 months of pregnancy counts as time alone - you don’t get to know really living with each other without the stress and yes excitement and challenges that often go along with being pregnant especially for the first time) -
But talk about it a little more and if you two are really open to and ready for kids straight off then God Bless you and go for it - if you decide you’d rather wait a year or so to being open to conceive there are many Priests out there who would say this is a plenty good reason to delay getting pregnant.
God Bless
Rye
 
ryecroft said:
If you’re (and by you’re I mean BOTH of you) really ready to have kids than by all means go for it. Personally, I know of Priests who will say a serious reason can be that you’re just getting married and would prefer to spend a couple of years just being with each other without pregnancy or kids. Our Priest actually agreed this was a really good idea that it seemed to strengthen the bond in the marriages he preformed - but warned us that whatever method we used to put off having kids or spacing (we began with a 5 year plan - for some that’s too long for some not enough) make sure we knew that nothing was 100% if we were active (which most newlywed are). I know I’ll get disagreement on here and that’s fine- I really believe couples need to look at when they get married and ask themselves (which granted you already seem to have done)-
" would we be happy if we got pregnant straight off or would we prefer to have some time as a newly married couple just to ourselves ?" Most couples I’ve known in the Church actually say they would like that time together (and no I don’t believe the 9 months of pregnancy counts as time alone - you don’t get to know really living with each other without the stress and yes excitement and challenges that often go along with being pregnant especially for the first time) -
But talk about it a little more and if you two are really open to and ready for kids straight off then God Bless you and go for it - if you decide you’d rather wait a year or so to being open to conceive there are many Priests out there who would say this is a plenty good reason to delay getting pregnant.
God Bless
Rye
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You replied to an old post…MY old post!🙂 Just wanted to let you know that we’ve been married for 3 months and one week now. And I am 3 months pregnant and wouldn’t change a thing! We never know what our fertility will be like (obviously, we are very blessed) and it would have seemed irresponsible to put things off.

We have had a lot of changes occur in one short year (his first real career, me leaving my job, us buying and restoring a house, becoming friends, getting engaged, getting married, and conceiving a child).

I respect the opinions of those that feel they prefer a couple years without change, stress, surprises, or excitement. But neither of us have ever avoided those things!! It just seems more natural and, well, holy, to let things happen in God’s time. And God’s time isn’t always slow!! God bless you!
 
ExGratia said:
You replied to an old post…MY old post!🙂 Just wanted to let you know that we’ve been married for 3 months and one week now. And I am 3 months pregnant and wouldn’t change a thing! We never know what our fertility will be like (obviously, we are very blessed) and it would have seemed irresponsible to put things off.

We have had a lot of changes occur in one short year (his first real career, me leaving my job, us buying and restoring a house, becoming friends, getting engaged, getting married, and conceiving a child).

I respect the opinions of those that feel they prefer a couple years without change, stress, surprises, or excitement. But neither of us have ever avoided those things!! It just seems more natural and, well, holy, to let things happen in God’s time. And God’s time isn’t always slow!! God bless you!
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Congrats! It sent me an email that someone else had said something on here - anyway, I’m glad you’re happy with the way things worked out - my mom always said “one man’s tea is another man’s poison…” (not using that saying to refer to your pregnancy)- anyway, for many their tea is not getting pregnant straight off but having a couple of years together - I’m glad you’re happy with your choices and I really hope you enjoy being parents! Congrats again!
God Bless
Rye
 
maryjk said:
I wish we had classes for teens. How much better would it have been to know when your period is due, rather than just guessing? Or knowing why in the middle of my cycle I felt like I needed a panty liner, when right after my period I didn’t have that issue. 🤷

It seems like this tightly held secret, until you get married. 😦
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I agree. As a virginal teen, I had crazy wild cycles and I really just wanted to know what was going on. But when I asked about it, the answer I got was, “Well, we can’t teach single people because then they’ll use it to avoid pregnancy while having sex outside of marriage.” :rolleyes: Riiight. Because people who want to have sex outside of marriage and avoid pregnancy are going to go through the trouble of charting and abstaining, etc.

This was before we had internet at my house, so it wasn’t the relatively simple matter of Googling “Natural Family Planning” that it is today. I really was kinda stuck. To this day I have yet to learn any of the NFP methods with any reliability. Not sure I even know where my basal thermometer is …
 
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