Must one be a christian to be saved?

  • Thread starter Thread starter captainmike
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
*[CCC 192 Through the centuries many professions or symbols of faith have been articulated in response to the needs of the different eras: the creeds of the different apostolic and ancient Churches,8 e.g., the Quicumque, also called the Athanasian Creed;9 the professions of faith of certain Councils, such as Toledo, Lateran, Lyons, Trent;10 or the symbols of certain popes, e.g., the Fides Damasi11 or the Credo of the People of God of Paul VI.12

CCC193 None of the creeds from the different stages in the Church’s life can be considered superseded or irrelevant. They help us today to attain and deepen the faith of all times by means of the different summaries made of it. ](http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2.htm)*
 
so, is the first line of that creed the teaching of the church today?
 
Here’s the line:

1.Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

That’s “catholic” with a little ‘c’, not Catholic.

Even protestants profess the Nicene Creed, unchanged: ‘One holy, catholic, and apostolic church…’

The Catechism goes on to explain that “Faith” is a gift from God, unlike “Belief” which is a human choice. This issue is a lot more fuzzy than many people want to make it.

There’s something distasteful about defining your faith by who’s not in it, although that was quite popular in the middle ages! It seems to be making a comeback in the 21st century.
 
i’m not asking whether the church teaches that one must be Catholic (with a big “C”) to be saved.

i’m asking whether the church teaches that one must be CHRISTIAN to be saved.

clearly, the creed above teaches that.

does the catholic church still teach that? if not, when did it cease doing so?
 
i’m not asking whether the church teaches that one must be Catholic (with a big “C”) to be saved.

i’m asking whether the church teaches that one must be CHRISTIAN to be saved.

clearly, the creed above teaches that.

does the catholic church still teach that? if not, when did it cease doing so?
Here is what the Church has to say about being “saved”…as per the CCC…
Salvation
 
No the Church still teaches this sentence. However it has slowly over centuries come to a broader understanding of what truth the sentence is trying to impart. A reading for plain meaning here has the same pitfalls that Fundamentalist plain meaning has when reading Scripture. Only the teaching Church can tell us what it means today.
 
Here’s the line:

1.Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

That’s “catholic” with a little ‘c’, not Catholic.

Even protestants profess the Nicene Creed, unchanged: ‘One holy, catholic, and apostolic church…’

The Catechism goes on to explain that “Faith” is a gift from God, unlike “Belief” which is a human choice. This issue is a lot more fuzzy than many people want to make it.

There’s something distasteful about defining your faith by who’s not in it, although that was quite popular in the middle ages! It seems to be making a comeback in the 21st century.

👍

That kind of use of a creed - as a test or a weapon - is the difference between an ideology & Christian faith 😦

must one be a christian to be saved? - Jesus does not seem to have thought membership in a particular society necessary for salvation. Nowhere does He say that belief in Him requires membership in a particular group, or even that belief in Him is needed, & that its absence is punished hereafter. IOW, He does not express himself as an ecclesiastic or a dogmatician. He was neither: just as He was a Jew, & not a Christian.
 
i’m not asking whether the church teaches that one must be Catholic (with a big “C”) to be saved.
Actually the Church does teach that one must be Catholic to be saved (but it’s not in the way you think it is):

Baltimore Catechism
  1. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?
    A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.
Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.

In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.

Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never – even in the past – had the slightest doubt of that fact – what will become of him?

If he was validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister – not being a true priest – has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition – that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic – with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts – might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.

If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.

I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.

I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.

I do not speak here of pagans who have never heard of Our Lord or His holy religion, but of those outside the Church who claim to be good Christians without being members of the Catholic Church.
 
read the first line of this creed:

ccel.org/creeds/athanasian.creed.html

does the catholic church still teach this? if so, can you point me to the catechism sections that say so? if not, when did the church cease teaching this?
All mankind are children of God and can be saved. Anyone who is saved is saved nonetheless through the merits of Jesus Christ.
If a gentile who has not the law lives according to the law through righteousness he becomes a law unto himself. St.Paul says something to this effect. However, A Christian who knows the fullness of the faith who then repudiates that faith thereby denying Christ cannot be saved. He is worse off than the gentile who was ignorant of Christ. God bless you.
Bill
 
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. Catechism, 847
 
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. Catechism, 847
Yes, with the possible exception of invincible ignorance.
The real point of contention is what is invincible ignorance? I think it is something like what neuro_nurse posted in the quote above. So who are those that through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church?

I believe that it means those that do not know that Christ is God and do not know that the Church is the true Church. Those that believe that the Church is the true Church but leave anyway are rejecting Christ and thereby rejecting salvation. They cannot be said to be outside of the Church through no fault of their own. People who know that there is an institution called the Catholic Church, but do not believe that it is the true Church remain ignorant and may be saved through the mysterious extension of Christ’s saving grace. This is what I believe and I believe it is consistent with the Church’s teaching.
 
so, is the first line of that creed the teaching of the church today?
short answer : no

Long answer : yes, but not the way you think. Back when this was written, catholics were the only christians around. You have to be Christian, that is irrefutable by and christian faith. Secondly, that’s catholic with a little c, not a capital C. This means universal, meaning the universal church of God. In this modern day that extends to Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and protestants (with true faith) I put this in parenthesis because I believe that when the protestant revolt was taking place many, if not all, protestants were seeking to cause division in the church of God, not unity. Had Luther done his “reform” without resorting to calling the pope satan, he might have accomplished all his goals, and kept the church in tact. Luther and St. Francis of Assisi really only have 2 differences, that that difference was one resorted to name-calling, accusations, and threatening words. St. Francis faced excommunication at one time, and he knew that he should be humble and prayerful. Luther faced excommunication and…well you know the story.

Anyway, Protestants back in the day were seeking division and power more than they seemed to be seeking God. That’s why you see such harsh statements made against them by the Vatican. Nowadays they are simply seeking to serve God. Very few of them are looking for separation or division. (this means anyone producing hate against any other christian, this is most popular in Chick Tracts)
 
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. Catechism, 847
Now let me put a spin on it. This is what someone Jewish had to say about Christianity

I’LL include the whole text that way im not misinterpreting or taking anything out of context

***G-d doesn’t punish people for ignorance. This is called tinokos she-nishbu – literally “kidnapped children.” If one has been brainwashed into idolatry it is as if you were kidnapped as a child. You didn’t truly make the choice of your own free will.

Jews are to be a light unto the nations. No doubt. But there are 12 million of us and billions of the rest of the world. Among all those people are surely those who have discovered their yetzer tov (good inclination) and are righteous.***

This definitely applies to Jew and gentile alike. The sages have stated that the idolatry was passed down to you – you didn’t accept it on your own. Therefore you are tinokos she-nishbu – like a kidnapped child.

Now keep in mind that ONCE a gentile becomes aware that Xianity is idolatry then tinokos she-nishbu no longer applies. (Of course not all Xians are idolaters – but many are).
 
Now let me put a spin on it. This is what someone Jewish had to say about Christianity

I’LL include the whole text that way im not misinterpreting or taking anything out of context

***G-d doesn’t punish people for ignorance. This is called tinokos she-nishbu – literally “kidnapped children.” If one has been brainwashed into idolatry it is as if you were kidnapped as a child. You didn’t truly make the choice of your own free will.

Jews are to be a light unto the nations. No doubt. But there are 12 million of us and billions of the rest of the world. Among all those people are surely those who have discovered their yetzer tov (good inclination) and are righteous.***

This definitely applies to Jew and gentile alike. The sages have stated that the idolatry was passed down to you – you didn’t accept it on your own. Therefore you are tinokos she-nishbu – like a kidnapped child.

Now keep in mind that ONCE a gentile becomes aware that Xianity is idolatry then tinokos she-nishbu no longer applies. (Of course not all Xians are idolaters – but many are).
Um, no offense but he asked for the Catholic take on this, not the Jewish take. It’d be like asking someone a question about Islam and getting an answer from a Mormon source. It doesn’t make much sense, and in the end the answer won’t help the person who asked the question. Catholicism does not teach the same things Judaism does. This much is obvious.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top