Must premarital sex be selfish?

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Hello, I created an account here specially to ask this question, as I have been having some trouble finding an answer to it in books and the like.

I am a Catholic and I believe and live as though premarital sex is wrong. However, there is something specific about this belief that I have been having trouble justifying conceptually. Recently a friend, newly converted to Christianity, told me he does not see why those who engage in premarital sex must be possessed of a selfish mindset that contributes to their activity being sinful. Now, I have read John Paul II’s Love and Responsibility. In that book he emphasizes that it is morally wrong to use a person for any reason, insisting that persons are to be treated as ends in themselves. He calls this idea the personalistic norm. If I remember correctly, the Pope’s point is that sex outside the context of marriage will always involve some element of use – the participants will be using one another (for pleasure in the case of sex), and this violation of the personalistic norm is what makes their action wrong.

I am struggling with understanding, or finding, the argument for why this is so. To help you understand my thinking on this, here is something I recently wrote in an email to someone about the matter: “I don’t need to have committed myself to someone else for life in order to be able to develop as much intimacy with them as I can as long as it’s non-sexual, such as telling them personal things about myself. I can develop that intimacy even with the knowledge that our relationship may end before one of us is dead – that we may lose touch, for example, and that I may indeed subsequently develop similarly intimate relationships with other people before either of us dies – and despite all this, we need not have the mindset that we are using one another.”

Something in me tells me that there is something wrong with saying that two unmarried people could have sex and it be entirely devoid of selfish feelings, so that there would be nothing wrong with their act insofar as that aspect is concerned (even if there would be something wrong with it from the point of view of sexuality’s reproductive aspect). But I am trying to justify this intuition of mine with reasons. At the risk of going on too long, here is a quote from the Pope’s Love and Responsibility that I have been thinking about in connection with this: “How is it possible to ensure that one person does not then become for the other – the woman for the man, or the man for the woman – nothing more than the means to an end – i.e. an object used exclusively for the attainment of a selfish end? To exclude this possibility they must share the same end. Such an end, where marriage is concerned, is procreation, the future generation, a family, and, at the same time, the continual ripening of the relationship between two people, in all the areas of activity which conjugal life includes” (30). Given the context in which this passage appears, I take the Pope to be saying that our actions must be directed to some further good beyond the immediate activity, be it sexual or otherwise (he mentions the relationship between the employer and employee and between the commander and soldier), if we are to avoid using others in our actions.

But just as the married couple have in mind the good of their union when they have sex (leaving the reproductive aim of sex aside for the moment), can an unmarried couple not have in mind the same end – the good of their union – and so engage in sex unselfishly? What I am having trouble seeing is how a proof could be offered one way or the other in answer to this question. Even if I understand why marriage would make it less likely that “use of the other” would occur in sexual relations, I am not seeing why “use of the other” absolutely must occur in sexual relations outside marriage.

Thank you in advance for whatever help you can offer me with this question.
 
Hello, I created an account here specially to ask this question, as I have been having some trouble finding an answer to it in books and the like.

I am a Catholic and I believe and live as though premarital sex is wrong. However, there is something specific about this belief that I have been having trouble justifying conceptually. Recently a friend, newly converted to Christianity, told me he does not see why those who engage in premarital sex must be possessed of a selfish mindset that contributes to their activity being sinful. Now, I have read John Paul II’s Love and Responsibility. In that book he emphasizes that it is morally wrong to use a person for any reason, insisting that persons are to be treated as ends in themselves. He calls this idea the personalistic norm. If I remember correctly, the Pope’s point is that sex outside the context of marriage will always involve some element of use – the participants will be using one another (for pleasure in the case of sex), and this violation of the personalistic norm is what makes their action wrong.

I am struggling with understanding, or finding, the argument for why this is so. To help you understand my thinking on this, here is something I recently wrote in an email to someone about the matter: “I don’t need to have committed myself to someone else for life in order to be able to develop as much intimacy with them as I can as long as it’s non-sexual, such as telling them personal things about myself. I can develop that intimacy even with the knowledge that our relationship may end before one of us is dead – that we may lose touch, for example, and that I may indeed subsequently develop similarly intimate relationships with other people before either of us dies – and despite all this, we need not have the mindset that we are using one another.”

Something in me tells me that there is something wrong with saying that two unmarried people could have sex and it be entirely devoid of selfish feelings, so that there would be nothing wrong with their act insofar as that aspect is concerned (even if there would be something wrong with it from the point of view of sexuality’s reproductive aspect). But I am trying to justify this intuition of mine with reasons. At the risk of going on too long, here is a quote from the Pope’s Love and Responsibility that I have been thinking about in connection with this: “How is it possible to ensure that one person does not then become for the other – the woman for the man, or the man for the woman – nothing more than the means to an end – i.e. an object used exclusively for the attainment of a selfish end? To exclude this possibility they must share the same end. Such an end, where marriage is concerned, is procreation, the future generation, a family, and, at the same time, the continual ripening of the relationship between two people, in all the areas of activity which conjugal life includes” (30). Given the context in which this passage appears, I take the Pope to be saying that our actions must be directed to some further good beyond the immediate activity, be it sexual or otherwise (he mentions the relationship between the employer and employee and between the commander and soldier), if we are to avoid using others in our actions.

But just as the married couple have in mind the good of their union when they have sex (leaving the reproductive aim of sex aside for the moment), can an unmarried couple not have in mind the same end – the good of their union – and so engage in sex unselfishly? What I am having trouble seeing is how a proof could be offered one way or the other in answer to this question. Even if I understand why marriage would make it less likely that “use of the other” would occur in sexual relations, I am not seeing why “use of the other” absolutely must occur in sexual relations outside marriage.

Thank you in advance for whatever help you can offer me with this question.
Part of the unitive understanding is that this act ratifies a permanent bond. You don’t have a permanent bond in premarital sex as of yet therefore it makes the act a lie.The marital act is how married couple’s renew there marriage vows. There are no permanent vows in a non marital relationship. This makes premarital sex an counterfeit act.

If you haven’t read the Theology of the Body then read that. Or one of the studies by Christopher West.
 
I would say that the exclusion of the reproductive part of sex is in itself a selfish act, and from what I know most people who are engaged in extramarital sex are hindering the reproductive part. But let’s take a hypothetical case where both parties are aware that contraception is inherently evil and are not going to use it, what would be wrong with extramarital sex? As I see it, there exists a responsibility towards the family which will come about when people engage in sexual activities under normal circumstances. Not only do man and woman have a responsibility towards each other but also to the children they beget. That responsibility includes providing for them during their upbringing and giving them a safe harbor. If a man and a woman have not vowed to remain together for the rest of their lives, ie. they are unmarried, they are being uncharitable towards the children they are begetting and that is why it is a selfish act. At least in my eyes.
 
There are three fonts of morality.
  1. intention
  2. moral object
  3. circumstances
Whenever the moral object is evil, the act is intrinsically evil and always immoral. Pre-marital sex is intrinsically evil because it deprives the sexual act of the marital meaning. So a good intention, even a selfless intention, does not justify the act. Neither can any circumstance, however dire, justify an intrinsically evil act. A good intention cannot change a moral object from evil to good.

You should read the magisterial documents of Pope John Paul II. It does not make sense to read his private theology, and ignore his magisterial teachings, especially on the same subject: morality.
 
Until relatively recently (the 16th Century), it was possible for a man and a woman to marry each other validly in private without witnesses or prior Church approval. Because of the number of disputes that arose from these encounters, which kept canon lawyers very busy, the Church declared such clandestine marriages null and void–at least if one of the parties is Catholic (Decree Tametsi).

Among the disputes that was often adjudicated before the ban was the question of whether conditional marriage was valid if the conditions were met, and particularly whether conditional marriage based upon a future condition was valid. I forget the answer to the first question (irrelevant to the thread anyway), but the answer to the future condition was no. As we can expect, the “future condition” was typically “if the woman gets pregnant”.

With this in mind, it is hard to see why it would be charitable to engage in “premarital sex”, because there can be no guarantee of marriage in the event of pregnancy. Making an unwed mother out of one’s girlfriend, and a bastard out of one’s child isn’t a particularly charitable act.
 
The reason pre-marital sex is always “use of the other” is because it is an act reserved for marriage. And to do the act without committing to marriage first is then necessarily selfish. For a couple to have sex for the good of their umarried union is putting the cart before the horse. Marriage first, then sex.

However, “use of the other” is not exclusive to the unmarried. It is possible for “use of the other” to occur within a marriage. This would be in those instances of sinful situations or acts of sex.
 
two unmarried people could have sex and it be entirely devoid of selfish feelings
This could be the key to your trouble. Feelings are not reality. Selfishness can exist regardless of the feelings involved in the act. To take the privileges of married people without being married is selfish, no matter how loving one feels during the course of the act.

Betsy
 
Hello, I created an account here specially to ask this question, as I have been having some trouble finding an answer to it in books and the like.

I am a Catholic and I believe and live as though premarital sex is wrong. However, there is something specific about this belief that I have been having trouble justifying conceptually. Recently a friend, newly converted to Christianity, told me he does not see why those who engage in premarital sex must be possessed of a selfish mindset that contributes to their activity being sinful. Now, I have read John Paul II’s Love and Responsibility. In that book he emphasizes that it is morally wrong to use a person for any reason, insisting that persons are to be treated as ends in themselves. He calls this idea the personalistic norm. If I remember correctly, the Pope’s point is that sex outside the context of marriage will always involve some element of use – the participants will be using one another (for pleasure in the case of sex), and this violation of the personalistic norm is what makes their action wrong.

I am struggling with understanding, or finding, the argument for why this is so. To help you understand my thinking on this, here is something I recently wrote in an email to someone about the matter: “I don’t need to have committed myself to someone else for life in order to be able to develop as much intimacy with them as I can as long as it’s non-sexual, such as telling them personal things about myself. I can develop that intimacy even with the knowledge that our relationship may end before one of us is dead – that we may lose touch, for example, and that I may indeed subsequently develop similarly intimate relationships with other people before either of us dies – and despite all this, we need not have the mindset that we are using one another.”

Something in me tells me that there is something wrong with saying that two unmarried people could have sex and it be entirely devoid of selfish feelings, so that there would be nothing wrong with their act insofar as that aspect is concerned (even if there would be something wrong with it from the point of view of sexuality’s reproductive aspect). But I am trying to justify this intuition of mine with reasons. At the risk of going on too long, here is a quote from the Pope’s Love and Responsibility that I have been thinking about in connection with this: “How is it possible to ensure that one person does not then become for the other – the woman for the man, or the man for the woman – nothing more than the means to an end – i.e. an object used exclusively for the attainment of a selfish end? To exclude this possibility they must share the same end. Such an end, where marriage is concerned, is procreation, the future generation, a family, and, at the same time, the continual ripening of the relationship between two people, in all the areas of activity which conjugal life includes” (30). Given the context in which this passage appears, I take the Pope to be saying that our actions must be directed to some further good beyond the immediate activity, be it sexual or otherwise (he mentions the relationship between the employer and employee and between the commander and soldier), if we are to avoid using others in our actions.

But just as the married couple have in mind the good of their union when they have sex (leaving the reproductive aim of sex aside for the moment), can an unmarried couple not have in mind the same end – the good of their union – and so engage in sex unselfishly? What I am having trouble seeing is how a proof could be offered one way or the other in answer to this question. Even if I understand why marriage would make it less likely that “use of the other” would occur in sexual relations, I am not seeing why “use of the other” absolutely must occur in sexual relations outside marriage.

Thank you in advance for whatever help you can offer me with this question.
I think I understand what you’re asking. I’m not sure if the other responses fully understood.

Pre-marital sex is definitely wrong because it deprives the marital act of its full-meaning, so what they have said is true.

It is selfish because it presumes to unite people in the marital act without the necessary commitment.

However, just because it is an evil act does not mean that there are good things that come from it. The couple can act unitively and procreatively in pre-marital sex - admittedly, not perfectly, and not without committing a very serious sin.

But, it doesn’t mean that it can’t be open to the creation of life, and it doesn’t mean that the couple can secure a deeper emotional bond and express a genuine, albeit distorted and incomplete love.

In short, the act of pre-marital sex is objectively evil. However, it doesn’t mean that there aren’t good things that come from it - but the bad far outweigh the good.
 
Premarital sex is selfish because it excludes God. A person may be unselfish in his/her feelings and intentions toward his/her partner but the partner is not the only element to be considered. Sexual relations within a sacramental marriage are ordered to God’s plan. Sexual relations outside of marriage reject God’s sacramental plan and focus entirely on the personal/human needs.

Sexual relations in a marriage can be selfish too but sexual relations outside of mariage always are.
 
Until relatively recently (the 16th Century), it was possible for a man and a woman to marry each other validly in private without witnesses or prior Church approval. Because of the number of disputes that arose from these encounters, which kept canon lawyers very busy, the Church declared such clandestine marriages null and void–at least if one of the parties is Catholic (Decree Tametsi).

.
Kind of like the “Code of the Hills” back with the United States was very young and folks were moving west… Lets say: Settler Smith owned 300 acres of land just east of the Mississippi and Settler Jones owned the adjoining 300 acres. The Smith boy fell in love with the Jones girl and wanted to marry… No clergy for hundreds of miles… The circuit rider preacher wouldn’t come around for 8 to 10 more months… No judge, No laws on the books, yet… Both Smith and Jones knew their bible, professed to be Christian*(( Maybe Catholic, Maybe not? ))…* >> So the scripture “And the two shall become one flesh” became the Code of the Hills.
Papa would enforce the verse by saying “If you go into my daughter, you are married to my daughter and she is your wife”
 
No clergy for hundreds of miles… The circuit rider preacher wouldn’t come around for 8 to 10 more months…
Actually, no. The Church considers shotgun marriages invalid - or any marriage if coercion is used to obtain consent. Also, if clergy are unavailable for a prolonged period of time, the Church allows marriages, provided that there are sufficient witnesses and correct matter and form.

In the old days–like today–priests would be nearby and the boys and girls would still try hard to outthink the laws of God, and fail.
 
Premarital sex is selfish because I want something from the other person (sex) without giving them what they are due (marriage).
 
@jmj603, Will B: And, the couple themselves are the ministers of the sacrament, not the priest.
 
Pre-marital sex is clearly condemned in the Bible. Just read that, full stop. You do not need to do extensive studies and by books of Christopher West to know that is true. If you engage in that activity you are on the way to hell. Period.

“These words are already fulfilled! I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. To anyone who thirsts I will give to drink without cost from the spring of life giving water. He who wins the victory shall inherit these gifts and he shall be my son. As for the cowards and traitors to the faith, the depraved and murderers, the fornicators and sorcerers, the idol-worshipers and deceivers of every sort - their lot is the fiery poor of burning sulphur, the second death!” (Revelation 21:5-8)

From the mind stem evil designs - murder, adulterous conduct, fornication, stealing, false
witness, blasphemy. These are the things that make a man impure. (Matt. 15:19-20)

Wicked designs come from the deep recesses of the heart: acts of fornication, theft, murder, adulterous conduct, greed, maliciousness, deceit, sensuality, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, an obtuse spirit. All these evils come from within and render a man impure. (Mark 7:21)

Can you not realize that the unholy will not fall heir to the Kingdom of God? Do not deceive yourselves: no fornicators, idolaters, or adulterers, no sodomites, thieves, misers, or drunkards, no slanderers or robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. (I Cor. 6:9-11, 15-20)
 
I think it is selfish because it says, “I want what I want here and now” without thinking of the repurcussions, which could hurt the other person. Isn’t stealing selfish? If you have premarital sex with someone you risk getting them pregnant, giving them an STD, or leaving them emotionally damaged when you break up, all for the pleasure of the moment. And just because you both are consenting, doesn’t make it right, because you don’t know what is going to happen down the road. Selfless would be to say, “I want to wait and do this right, so that we can raise our children in a safe married household, so that we both know going into it there are no STD’s involved, and so that you can feel comfortable knowing I would not leave you.”

That explanation SHOULD be suitable for even non-Christians, you are protecting your partner.
 
Truly unitive sex speaks with the body to say to the other: “I love you so much and our love is so powerful that it my create a child as the fruit of that love, and I promise to remain with you and that child until death.”

Don’t allow your body make promises that your will does not intend to keep.
 
Sex should say: “I give myself to you fully and completely.” Marriage also says this. Non-marriage relationships do not. As the first response said, that makes non-marriage sex something of a lie. Non-marital relationships give themselves… but only so much. They don’t by their nature promise anything about the future, anything about accepting responsibility for what happens next (physically or emotionally), or anything about continuing to remain “one.” Non-marital sex says, “I give myself to you… just for right now. I might change my mind later. No big promises. I need to hold back a bit from giving my all.” This holding back from fully giving to each other is how it’s selfish. It says, “I am willing to speak an untruth with my body to receive these benefits from you. I am willing to take more than I am willing to give.”
 
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