Must something be illegal for it to be avoided?

[Fitswimmer]

I got thinking about this the other night. There are a great many things that are legal in America that I do not do because of my faith. I don’t need a civil law against it, I don’t do it because I believe in a higher law that tells me it’s wrong.

Christians seem to spend a lot of energy and effort trying to get things that are against our Church laws enshrined in Civil Law. Is that really necessary?

Wouldn’t it please God more to obey Him regardless of what the civil law and others around us are doing? If we had to suffer imprisonment, fines or other “wordly” punishments in order to avoid sin, we’d probably be more likely to avoid it-but is that really true obedience to God-obedience out of Love?

Just a thought…

 

[vern_humphrey]

I got thinking about this the other night. There are a great many things that are legal in America that I do not do because of my faith. I don’t need a civil law against it, I don’t do it because I believe in a higher law that tells me it’s wrong.

Christians seem to spend a lot of energy and effort trying to get things that are against our Church laws enshrined in Civil Law. Is that really necessary?

Wouldn’t it please God more to obey Him regardless of what the civil law and others around us are doing? If we had to suffer imprisonment, fines or other “wordly” punishments in order to avoid sin, we’d probably be more likely to avoid it-but is that really true obedience to God-obedience out of Love?

Just a thought…

You’re talking about abortion, and you’re mixing apples and oranges. Private morality is one thing, saving human lives is another.

What does it profit you to say, “I never had an abortion” if children are being killed by the hundreds of thousands every year, and you do nothing to save them?

Abortion is murder – and it is highly dangerous to society, because if the unborn can be killed at whim, so eventually will those already born be subjected to death when it becomes expensive or inconvenient to allow them to continue to live.

 

[Fitswimmer]

You’re talking about abortion, and you’re mixing apples and oranges. Private morality is one thing, saving human lives is another.

What does it profit you to say, “I never had an abortion” if children are being killed by the hundreds of thousands every year, and you do nothing to save them?

Abortion is murder – and it is highly dangerous to society, because if the unborn can be killed at whim, so eventually will those already born be subjected to death when it becomes expensive or inconvenient to allow them to continue to live.

No, actually abortion was NOT what I was thinking about. I was thinking of personal sins. YOU were thinking about abortion.

 

[vern_humphrey]

No, actually abortion was NOT what I was thinking about. I was thinking of personal sins. YOU were thinking about abortion.

If you are not thinking about things like abortion, what are you trying to say? Are you seriously proposing that something like, say adulty is okay if it isn’t against the law?

 

[joeybaggz]

If you are not thinking about things like abortion, what are you trying to say? Are you seriously proposing that something like, say adulty is okay if it isn’t against the law?

Gotta agree with Vern, you do need to be more specific.

 

[joeybaggz]

Christians seem to spend a lot of energy and effort trying to get things that are against our Church laws enshrined in Civil Law. Is that really necessary?

And are you talking about Church Laws (read Religious Laws - say, Honor your Father and Mother), or are you talking morality?

Morality is not synonymous with Religion. Moral Laws are not necessarily Religious or Church Laws.

 

[Fitswimmer]

And are you talking about Church Laws (read Religious Laws - say, Honor your Father and Mother), or are you talking morality?

Morality is not synonymous with Religion. Moral Laws are not necessarily Religious or Church Laws.

Ah, but what is moral to one may not be moral to another. My Dad grew up in a church where dancing was immoral. He teases my Mom all the time that he had to convert because he liked to dance too much.

How about the Seven Deadly Sins then? Should these be enshrined in Civil Law?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ah, but what is moral to one may not be moral to another. My Dad grew up in a church where dancing was immoral. He teases my Mom all the time that he had to convert because he liked to dance too much.

How about the Seven Deadly Sins then? Should these be enshrined in Civil Law?

I’m still puzzled over the question. Can someone state it in plain English?

Some acts – murder, robbery, and so on – are both sins and dangerous to society. Other acts may be sinful, but are less dangerous.

 

[joeybaggz]

Ah, but what is moral to one may not be moral to another. My Dad grew up in a church where dancing was immoral. He teases my Mom all the time that he had to convert because he liked to dance too much.

How about the Seven Deadly Sins then? Should these be enshrined in Civil Law?

Again, you’re talking around your original question. Like Vern’s post asked previously, we would like to know by example, exactly what CHURCH LAWS you claim are trying to be enshrined into civil law?

A clear example please…

 

[mapleoak]

Ah, but what is moral to one may not be moral to another.

Morality is not relative. Nor is it determined by an individual deciding for something to moral or immoral.

 

[mapleoak]

I got thinking about this the other night. There are a great many things that are legal in America that I do not do because of my faith. I don’t need a civil law against it, I don’t do it because I believe in a higher law that tells me it’s wrong.

The unborn do not have the choice to decide not to be killed. They need a law to protect them from those who believe it is okay to kill them.

Christians seem to spend a lot of energy and effort trying to get things that are against our Church laws enshrined in Civil Law. Is that really necessary?

Yes. Because someone personally believes that abortion is wrong, does not mean the unborn do not need to be protected from others that don’t.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I’m sorry that I started this, because it just became another abortion thread.

I think the point that I was rather awkwardly trying to make was that whether something is legal or not-the choice to obey God and do what is right remains the same. I continue to believe that bringing more people to God is the best remedy for all moral evils. Someone who worships God and loves God and wants to be right with God is not going to buy Porn, drink to excess, gamble away the rent money or-yes, everyone- have an abortion.

Wouldn’t it be better for society overall if the money, effort and prayers of Catholics and Christians went towards bringing people to the faith and to God? It wouldn’t matter if these moral evils were legal, people would not want to do them because they would want to be right with God.

Jesus did not come to overthrow civil government and the apostles write about us being separate from secular society. Why do we continue to look to civil society to solve our moral problems when we should be looking to God?

 

[mapleoak]

What happens to societies where anything goes?

 

[Fitswimmer]

What happens to societies where anything goes?

Who said anything goes?

I’m talking about a strategy here-how do we best engage our efforts to reduce evil in society? By trusting in humans to change laws? or do we engage GOD and work to bring more people to GOD?

 

[wapsi]

how do we best engage our efforts to reduce evil in society? By trusting in humans to change laws? or do we engage GOD and work to bring more people to GOD?

I am puzzled. Are you saying we can’t do both at the same time?

 

[Fitswimmer]

I am puzzled. Are you saying we can’t do both at the same time?

I’m saying that Christians seem to spend a lot of energy working with society and trying to get secular institutions to do their work for them. Think of the 10 Commandments cases alone! Who cares if the 10 Commandments are on the lawn? Can’t we follow them without them being displayed? How about the Nativity cases? Isn’t putting a Nativity on our own lawn enough? Why does it have to be in the city park too? Why do public school children have to sing Christmas carols? If the idea of Christmas carols is that important to you-why aren’t you sending your kids to Catholic schools?

 

[nicolep]

I think the OP has been taken way out of context. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the OP is saying this –

Certain actions are immoral whether they are civilly legal or not. Therefore, why do we work so hard to change civil law? Couldn’t we put the same effort into bringing all people to God?

My response to the statement is this –

If only the world worked that way! I like to use the Seatbelt Laws as an example. There are people who wear a seatbelt whether someone tells them to or not. Likewise, there are certain people who won’t wear a seatbelt even though there’s a law telling them they must. The law is useful because there are people who only wear one because there’s a law and a chance they’ll get a ticket. It’s a weak analogy, but sort of makes the point. The majority of people want to follow civil laws. Put the law on the books and most people will behave according.

As far as Nativity scenes and the Ten Commandments, for me, the issue lies in that it was not a problem until someone up and decided it was offensive. Religion is the last “acceptable” prejudice. What offends me doesn’t matter because my opinions are based on morals. I’m labeled a “bible thumper” and accused of forcing my beliefs on other people. I propose that the Body of Christ hasn’t done enough to persuade society on these things. Fifty years ago, a lot of the problems with Church and State didn’t arise because no one was complaining. Now, the minority is speaking much louder than the majority. If we were doing a better job of speaking up and fighting these battles, maybe we wouldn’t be were we are now. If we fought with the same amount of passion it’s possible that the US might still be a country “under God”.

I’ll step off my pedestal now. I personally think this was a good topic to bring up…approached from the right angle. It speaks to my belief that “legality does not equal morality”.

Just my :twocents:

God bless,
Nicole

 

[vern_humphrey]

I think the point that I was rather awkwardly trying to make was that whether something is legal or not-the choice to obey God and do what is right remains the same.

Then why didn’t you say that at the outset?

Yes, moral laws do not change as temporal laws do.

Nevertheless, we need temporal laws – if you don’t believe that, walk through the worst part of town some night with a hundred dollar bill in your hatband and see how far you get.

 

[mapleoak]

Fifty years ago, a lot of the problems with Church and State didn’t arise because no one was complaining. Now, the minority is speaking much louder than the majority.

And we know the old saying “The vocal minority runs the show”.

 

[vz71]

Reading through, I was initially confused that no one seemed to understand.

Maybe I am really of base here, but I believe ‘blue laws’ to be the best example. Where I live, Alcohol cannot be sold on Sunday.

Perhaps others do not have such a problem, but here in ‘the South’ it often seems that local laws have been added to by various fundementalist churches.

A real problem arises with extracting the unnecessary blue laws without degrading the society. While it is reprehensible to legislate morality, it would seem that there are some benefits to it.