Must we be ecumenical? YES!

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St. Paul precedes the first historical documentation of the liturgy of the Eucharist written in 1 Corinthians 11 as follows:
“17 In giving this instruction, I do not praise the fact that your meetings are doing more harm than good. 18 First of all, I hear that when you meet as a church there are divisions among you, and to a degree I believe it; 19there have to be factions among you in order that (also) those who are approved among you may become known. 20 When you meet in one place, then, it is not to eat the Lord’s supper, 21 for in eating, each one goes ahead with his own supper, and one goes hungry while another gets drunk. 22 Do you not have houses in which you can eat and drink? Or do you show contempt for the church of God and make those who have nothing feel ashamed? What can I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this matter I do not praise you.”
In these verses I see a mandate for ecumenism. It’s easy to appear to pick apart my argument by quoting “when you meet as a church” and saying that it applies to Catholic masses. But if we look at the surrounding text, it provides context that makes it pretty hard to refute.

Verses 3-16 are the instructions for men and women to maintain the outward reflection of their created states while preaching (yes, both sexes).

Verses 23-26 are, in essence, the Eucharistic liturgy that our priests repeat in mass. Verses 27-28 are the rationale for refraining from communion if we are not in a state of sanctifying grace. Verses 29-32 are our rationale for asking non-Catholics/Orthodox from receiving communion (“anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself”). And verses 33 and 34 end the “chapter,”
“33Therefore, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34If anyone is hungry, he should eat at home, so that your meetings may not result in judgment. The other matters I shall set in order when I come.”
If we look at the original Christian communities as a collection of “house churches” (mirroring the Last Supper), we see that all the Christians from throughout an area would come together for the agape feasts, the form of the Eucharist in which worshipers brought food to the meeting place for sharing with one another (including the poor).

In the rest of the first letter to the Corinthians, Paul excoriates them for falling into factions. In 1 Corinthians 1: 11-13, he writes:
"11 For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you. 12 I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
I look on this verse as paralleling our divisions with our Orthodox and Protestant brothers and sisters (the new kinship in Christ). We Catholics “belong to Cephas” and his successors. Lutherans belong to Luther (and his successors), Methodists belong to Wesley, Presbyterians to Knox, Reformed to Calvin and Zwingli.

This is not OK. How can we build one Church? The easy answer for us Catholics is to say that they have to acknowledge the supremacy of the Chair of Peter, and just get with the program. Yet this is abysmal ecumenism. In fact, I’m not sure it’s the right thing to do. If we chose to forgo relationships with the Orthodox and Protestants because they won’t accept our Catechism, we’re putting our being right above agape (unconditional love). Only in relationship with our brothers and sisters in other denominations can we truly show them love.

1 Corinthians 12 sets the backdrop for the paean to love (agape [charity, unconditional love]) in Chapter 13 (love is patient, love is kind…). Chapter 12 says
"21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I do not need you.” 22Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary, 23and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety, 24 whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. "
So how do we “do ecumenism?” Here are some suggestions: ecumenical Bible study (a great thing for Catholics, since so few Catholics know the Bible). Ecumenical service projects (soup kitchens, blight-busting, community gardens, etc.). What about ecumenical marriage preparation? Sure, there are some issues to address (e.g., divorce), but isn’t there starting material?

If we can establish relationships with our Protestant and Orthodox brothers and sisters, it’s much easier to talk about other steps. Have harder conversations.

What do you think?
 
I understand the concern.

I think though, from what I’ve observed is that the problem lies more so in the exact* how* to be ecumenical and also how far should we extend.

If I were learning over a guardrail trying to help someone up there is only so much I can lean before I too am pulled over and into the abyss. And that would render my leaning over as purposeless.

How can we build one church?.. WE don’t. Christ does. Christ is the one who calls to His church. People building their own ‘church’ is what happened with the tower of Babel.
 
St. Paul clearly also spoke about heretics. And he also said to have nothing to do with them. Does such a thing as heresy not exist anymore?
 
We must not be ecumenical in teaching. Absolute Truth has no compromises.

All faiths containing truths can be found to completely contained in the Diving Life of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, we welcome all as brothers and sisters as if receiving Christ but we witness that the Truth must is completely contained in the Holy Catholic and Apostolic faith.
 
I’ve written a very thorough explanation of what the Church teaches about ecumenism and degrees of communion in the light of Vatican II here which you may find interesting. It has live links to all the relevant, quoted Magisterial documents.
 
So how do we “do ecumenism?” Here are some suggestions: ecumenical Bible study (a great thing for Catholics, since so few Catholics know the Bible). Ecumenical service projects (soup kitchens, blight-busting, community gardens, etc.). What about ecumenical marriage preparation? Sure, there are some issues to address (e.g., divorce), but isn’t there starting material?

If we can establish relationships with our Protestant and Orthodox brothers and sisters, it’s much easier to talk about other steps. Have harder conversations.

What do you think?
Believe it or not, Mary and Marian devotion is the key to all ecumenism. Declaration of the 5th Marian Dogma must be proclaimed.
 
Must we be ecumenical? Yes. But ecumenical is drawing those who are not in full communion (that is, in schism or in material heresy) back into the Church, not vice versa.
 
Must we be ecumenical? Yes. But ecumenical is drawing those who are not in full communion (that is, in schism or in material heresy) back into the Church, not vice versa.
Well, because of the following Scripture I have to take in account the approved prophecies of Anne Emmerick:

Despise not prophecies. (1 Thes 5:20)

And she stated in her prophecy that the church would be filled with Protestants in the last days (can’t find the actual quote) but here is a quote from what she said that is along the same lines:

"I saw also the relationship between two popes … I saw how baleful would be the consequences of this false church. I saw it increase in size; heretics of every kind came into the city of Rome. The local clergy grew lukewarm, and I saw a great darkness…

"I had another vision of the great tribulation. It seems to me that a concession was demanded from the clergy which could not be granted. I saw many older priests, especially one, who wept bitterly. A few younger ones were also weeping. But others, and the lukewarm among them, readily did what was demanded. It was as if people were splitting into two camps.

"I saw that many pastors allowed themselves to be taken up with ideas that were dangerous to the Church. They were building a great, strange, and extravagant Church. Everyone was to be admitted in it in order to be united and have equal rights: Evangelicals, Catholics, sects of every description. Such was to be the new Church … But God had other designs. "

“I saw again the strange big church that was being built there in Rome. There was nothing holy in it. I saw this just as I saw a movement led by Ecclesiastics to which contributed angels, saints, and other Christians. But there in the strange big church all the work was being done mechanically according to set rules and formulae. Everything was being done according to human reason …I saw all sorts of people, things, doctrines, and opinions. There was something proud, presumptuous, and violent about it, and they seemed very successful. I di not see a single Angel nor a single saint helping in the work. But far away in the background, I saw the seat of the cruel people armed with spears, and I saw a laughing figure which said: " Do build it as solid as you can; we will pull it to the ground.”

"I saw again the new and odd-looking church which** they were trying to build.** There was nothing holy about it … People were kneading bread in the crypt below … but it would not rise, nor did they receive the body of our Lord, but only bread. Those who were in error, through no fault of their own, and who piously and ardently longed for the Body of Jesus were spiritually consoled, but not by their communion. Then my Guide (Jesus) said: “This is Babel.(1)”

"I saw deplorable things: they were gambling, drinking, and talking in church; they were also courting women. All sorts of abominations were perpetrated there. Priests allowed everything and said Mass with much irreverence. I saw that few of them were still godly… All these things caused me much distress. "
 
Well, because of the following Scripture I have to take in account the approved prophecies of Anne Emmerick:
I did not know that some of her private revelations had been approved or acknowledged. My understanding was that all writings were set aside, and that “since it was impossible to distinguish what derives from Sister Emmerich and what is embroidery or additions, [they] could not take these writings as a criteria. Therefore, they were simply discarded completely from all the work for the cause” (link).

But even if they were, to be honest, the quotes indeed hint at the fact that this sort of mixture was not a good idea…it speaks of something odd and unholy 🤷

What I meant to say, anyways, is that I profoundly disagreed with statements like the following:
The easy answer for us Catholics is to say that they have to acknowledge the supremacy of the Chair of Peter, and just get with the program. Yet this is abysmal ecumenism. In fact, I’m not sure it’s the right thing to do.
It is “them”, our separated brethren, who must come back, reaching for our extended hand. If we start bending the Sacred Tradition for their benefit, trouble will arise. Perhaps not to the extent of the quoted prophesies, or perhaps yes…
 
Of course we must, but we must take care to understand what True Ecumenism is, and eschew the False Ecumenism that suggests we should ignore or suppress the differences in teaching between the Truth and the multitude of heresies that abound among the dispersed Christians.

We can find true common ground. We can work together in fighting for a more Just world.
We can ackgnowledge that we believe in and worship the same God. But we must never compromise on defined Dogma. That is far beyond our station.
 
Oh R C, I didn’t mean to put what you said in quotes in my last post on this thread, sorry! I wasn’t so much responding to what you said as just continuing a response. I’m sorry if that caused any confusion.

I agree with you and yes I am not sure too if Anne Emmerick’s prophecy had been ‘approved’ or not, but I do know that it was taken seriously, enough to have been passed down all this time. You are right to point that out… Thank you for clearing that up!
 
Just two remarks:

We don’t need to “build one Church” the way you put it.

There already is one Church bearing the four mark: one, holy, catholic, apostolic.

Getting people into it is what you mean, right?
 
Well, because of the following Scripture I have to take in account the approved prophecies of Anne Emmerick:

Despise not prophecies. (1 Thes 5:20)

And she stated in her prophecy that the church would be filled with Protestants in the last days (can’t find the actual quote) but here is a quote from what she said that is along the same lines:

"I saw also the relationship between two popes … I saw how baleful would be the consequences of this false church. I saw it increase in size; heretics of every kind came into the city of Rome. The local clergy grew lukewarm, and I saw a great darkness…

"I had another vision of the great tribulation. It seems to me that a concession was demanded from the clergy which could not be granted. I saw many older priests, especially one, who wept bitterly. A few younger ones were also weeping. But others, and the lukewarm among them, readily did what was demanded. It was as if people were splitting into two camps.

"I saw that many pastors allowed themselves to be taken up with ideas that were dangerous to the Church. They were building a great, strange, and extravagant Church. Everyone was to be admitted in it in order to be united and have equal rights: Evangelicals, Catholics, sects of every description. Such was to be the new Church … But God had other designs. "

“I saw again the strange big church that was being built there in Rome. There was nothing holy in it. I saw this just as I saw a movement led by Ecclesiastics to which contributed angels, saints, and other Christians. But there in the strange big church all the work was being done mechanically according to set rules and formulae. Everything was being done according to human reason …I saw all sorts of people, things, doctrines, and opinions. There was something proud, presumptuous, and violent about it, and they seemed very successful. I di not see a single Angel nor a single saint helping in the work. But far away in the background, I saw the seat of the cruel people armed with spears, and I saw a laughing figure which said: " Do build it as solid as you can; we will pull it to the ground.”

"I saw again the new and odd-looking church which** they were trying to build.** There was nothing holy about it … People were kneading bread in the crypt below … but it would not rise, nor did they receive the body of our Lord, but only bread. Those who were in error, through no fault of their own, and who piously and ardently longed for the Body of Jesus were spiritually consoled, but not by their communion. Then my Guide (Jesus) said: “This is Babel.(1)”

"I saw deplorable things: they were gambling, drinking, and talking in church; they were also courting women. All sorts of abominations were perpetrated there. Priests allowed everything and said Mass with much irreverence. I saw that few of them were still godly… All these things caused me much distress. "
These quotes look like they came from Yves Dupont’s book. Sadly they are chopped up and patched together from different revelations out of context. See here for an example of what i mean:

jloughnan.tripod.com/forgery.htm
 
I am disappointed by some respondents who have said, as I said in the OP, that we just need to say “we’re right, they just need to come to our Catechism.” While yes, I believe that to be true (with one prominent exception if you look at my other posts), it’s exactly the wrong approach to evangelizing.

To truly open up the heart of another, we must open ourselves up to understanding what makes them believe what they do. In charity (agape) and empathy, it’s only then that we can built relationships. And it’s only in relationship with “the other” that they can come to understand us.

Dialogue and relationship – these are essential to the Church. All Christians are “one body in one Lord.” The Body of Christ is Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. Yes, the Catholic Church is that which God established. As St. Paul says in 1 Cor 12-13:
“*Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way. If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy *[that means preaching] and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

A wonderful document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on evangelism, “Doctrinal Note on some Aspects of Evangelism” addresses what I see as some of the mistakes made here.

It quotes Vatican II’s Dignitatis Humanae (which some reactionaries such as the schismatic Archbishop Lefebvre condemn), saying:
“The search for truth, however, must be carried out in a manner that is appropriate to the dignity of the human person and his social nature, namely, by free enquiry with the help of teaching or instruction, communication and dialogue. It is by these means that people share with each other the truth they have discovered, or think they have discovered, in such a way that they help one another in the search for truth.”

Further notes:
"*6. Evangelization does not only entail the possibility of enrichment for those who are evangelized; it is also an enrichment for the one who does the evangelizing, as well as for the entire Church. For example, in the process of inculturation, “the universal Church herself is enriched with forms of expression and values in the various sectors of Christian life… She comes to know and to express better the mystery of Christ, all the while being motivated to continual renewal”


"8. Evangelization also involves a sincere dialogue that seeks to understand the reasons and feelings of others. Indeed, the heart of another person can only be approached in freedom, in love and in dialogue, in such a manner that the word which is spoken is not simply offered, but also truly witnessed in the hearts of those to whom it is addressed. This requires taking into account the hopes, sufferings and concrete situations of those with whom one is in dialogue. Precisely in this way, people of good will open their hearts more freely and share their spiritual and religious experiences in all sincerity. This experience of sharing, a characteristic of true friendship, is a valuable occasion for witnessing and for Christian proclamation.

As in any other field of human activity, so too in dialogue on religious matters, sin can enter in. It may sometimes happen that such a dialogue is not guided by its natural purpose, but gives way instead to deception, selfish motives or arrogance, thus failing in respect for the dignity and religious freedom of the partners in dialogue. For this reason, ‘the Church severely prohibits forcing people to embrace the faith or leading or enticing them by improper techniques; by the same token, she also strongly defends the right that no one be deterred from the faith by deplorable ill treatment’. [citing V2’s Ad gentes]"


Different dimensions of the work of ecumenism can be distinguished: above all, there is listening, as a fundamental condition for any dialogue, then, theological discussion, in which, by seeking to understand the beliefs, traditions and convictions of others, agreement can be found, at times hidden under disagreement. Inseparably united with this is another essential dimension of the ecumenical commitment: witness and proclamation of elements which are not particular traditions or theological subtleties, but which belong rather to the Tradition of the faith itself.

With non-Catholic Christians, Catholics must enter into a respectful dialogue of charity and truth,** a dialogue which is not only an exchange of ideas, but also of gifts**,[47] in order that the fullness of the means of salvation can be offered to one’s partners in dialogue.[48] In this way, they are led to an ever deeper conversion to Christ.

Therefore, the work of ecumenism does not remove the right or take away the responsibility of proclaiming in fullness the Catholic faith to other Christians, who freely wish to receive it.*
 
I am disappointed by some respondents who have said, as I said in the OP, that we just need to say “we’re right, they just need to come to our Catechism.” While yes, I believe that to be true (with one prominent exception if you look at my other posts), it’s exactly the wrong approach to evangelizing.
I don’t think the right approach - obviously - it’s to say the plain truth…that would not necessarily be charitable, or even wise. Consider how St. Paul spoke before the assembly of Athens, making reference to the altar to the unknown God in order to preach the Gospel to them and teach them about the true God.

However, as someone above said, we must be very careful in distinguishing between true and false ecumenism. Honestly, I think you are trusting your own judgment a little bit too much when you make your claims.

It’s very easy to fall into error and start thinking that perhaps Holy Church has been doing it wrong…that perchance our Sacred Tradition is indeed mistaken and that we need to “fix” it or take some things out in order to accommodate for the protestant doctrines…that is a huge error…surely Holy Church, in the light of the Holy Spirit, has been taking a more brotherly approach towards our Christian brethren…but let us never forget that any doctrine that is not Catholic is erroneous to some lesser or greater degree…and that the goal of ecumenism must be to be able to underscore all the common ground and to kindly but firmly defend our stance on the “rest” of the topics…

When you say “All Christians are “one body in one Lord.” The Body of Christ is Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant.”, I know your argument is not firm, theologically speaking…but I don’t know to what degree…I know it contradicts the infallible Magisterium…but I don’t know to what degree…surely we cannot possibly place heretics and schismatics on the same level that we place the faithful of Holy Church, lest we turn ourselves into heretics by contradicting what the Church teaches…

Consider the following article by Venerable Fulton J. Sheen:
I know that you will welcome me to your conferences if I say I am not Divine; I know a recent writer has argued that the great organization of the Church could be the framework for the union of all Christendom, if I would give up my claim to be the Truth; I know your welcome would be sincere; I know you desire the union of all Christendom-but I cannot. ‘Why do you ask me?’ if your first principle is that I am not Divine, but just a human organization like your own, that I am a human institution like all other human institutions founded by erring men and erring women. If your first principle is that I am human, but not divine, then there is no common ground for conference. I must refuse.
Call this intolerance, yes! That is just what it is-the intolerance of Divinity. It is the claim to uniqueness that brought the blow of the soldier against Christ, and it is the claim to uniqueness that brings the blow of the world’s disapproval against the Church. It is well to remember that there was one thing in the life of Christ that brought His death, and that was the intolerance of His claim to be Divine.
Tolerance applies only to persons, but never to principles. Intolerance applies only to principles, but never to persons. We must be tolerant to persons because they are human; we must be intolerant about principles because they are divine. We must be tolerant to the erring, because ignorance may have led them astray; but we must be intolerant to the error, because Truth is not our making, but God’s.
And hence the Church in her history, due reparation made, has always welcomed the heretic back into the treasury of her souls, but never his heresy into the treasury of her wisdom.
The world may charge the Church with intolerance, and the world is right. The Church is intolerant-intolerant about Truth, intolerant about principles, intolerant about Divinity, just as Our Blessed Lord was intolerant about His Divinity. The other religions may change their principles, and they do change them, because their principles are man-made. The Church cannot change, because her principles are God-made.
 
These quotes look like they came from Yves Dupont’s book. Sadly they are chopped up and patched together from different revelations out of context. See here for an example of what i mean:

jloughnan.tripod.com/forgery.htm
Its quite possible they are. I don’t know as I hurriedly looked for the quote… I’m glad you brought that up, because if it is embellished as you say, then it would not be good to put much stock in it.

I don’t know anything about Yves Dupont. What did Yves Dupont do that was so bad that I should discredit his books?

That being said, I have not really heard anything against what it says in content, which means even if it is embellished its content is not so far from what Catholics believe from an ecumenical standpoint… or at least did believe once. (That is what makes something believable or not) There are other saints writings and documents I’m sure that would say something similar. I can’t think of anything right now except what I have already written here. St. Paul’s admonition in his letters is one.
 
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