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katolik
Guest
Choose your words wisely!!! Okay not even Rome has called Traditional Catholics apostates!!! I want an apology
- Status
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Fr.JLT
Guest
Hello, Katolik! :tiphat:
You know well what I mean by Kosher. But if you want to get literal about it, the opposite is Traef, and yes, the Lefebvrists are Traef.
I was heavily involved with the Lefebvrists since long before the schism. While I did not say at any point in my post (please read carefully) that each and every Lefebvrist is attending these Masses because it’s what they like. However, when there is a Roman Catholic parish available, what other reason is there to be partaking of a schiszmatic ceremony? Of course, there are those who attend because they would posit that the Novus Ordo is somehow invalid and that it’s not a “real Mass.” In that case, one is not only schismatic, but blatantly heretical and I won’t even go there, because that is as obvious as the nose on Streisand’s face. The is absolutely no way to justify that one or try to wiggle one’s way out of that.
The case with the Orthodox is very very different indeed. And that was not in the conversation anyway, so I’d rather not swing it. Suffice it to say that those responsible for the schizm with the Lefebvrists are, for the most part, still very much alive.
Roman documents don’t have to use the terms “schismatic and heretical” when these things are obvious. In fact, Rome is very loathe to use such terms today because they find them politically incorrect. I, on the other hand, don’t think this is the time or the country to mince words. The faithful need to know the truth about sects lest they endanger their souls. I was ordained to do that; not to try to play nice-nice amd say whatever people want to hear to try to justify their heresies and schisms. We have John Kerry to do that for us.
There is a specific forum for other religious groups, isn’t there?
And, of course, it is not Apostasy in the strict sense of the term.
– Fr. L.
You know well what I mean by Kosher. But if you want to get literal about it, the opposite is Traef, and yes, the Lefebvrists are Traef.
I was heavily involved with the Lefebvrists since long before the schism. While I did not say at any point in my post (please read carefully) that each and every Lefebvrist is attending these Masses because it’s what they like. However, when there is a Roman Catholic parish available, what other reason is there to be partaking of a schiszmatic ceremony? Of course, there are those who attend because they would posit that the Novus Ordo is somehow invalid and that it’s not a “real Mass.” In that case, one is not only schismatic, but blatantly heretical and I won’t even go there, because that is as obvious as the nose on Streisand’s face. The is absolutely no way to justify that one or try to wiggle one’s way out of that.
The case with the Orthodox is very very different indeed. And that was not in the conversation anyway, so I’d rather not swing it. Suffice it to say that those responsible for the schizm with the Lefebvrists are, for the most part, still very much alive.
Roman documents don’t have to use the terms “schismatic and heretical” when these things are obvious. In fact, Rome is very loathe to use such terms today because they find them politically incorrect. I, on the other hand, don’t think this is the time or the country to mince words. The faithful need to know the truth about sects lest they endanger their souls. I was ordained to do that; not to try to play nice-nice amd say whatever people want to hear to try to justify their heresies and schisms. We have John Kerry to do that for us.
There is a specific forum for other religious groups, isn’t there?
And, of course, it is not Apostasy in the strict sense of the term.
– Fr. L.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
albert cipriani:
Yes all the things proposed by the Council must be accepted by Catholics. The only thing wrong with your N.O. idea is that the N.O. is available in Latin. So it does not violate SC.
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deogratias
Guest
and by some SSPX priests - heard it with my own ears during the one and only time I attended an SSPX Chapel - He said, “The chair of Peter is occupied by the Anti-Christ”.
[/quote]
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Fr.JLT
Guest
Bro. Rich. . .
Yes! You are correct! But read the documents more closely and you will see that such things are left up to the local Ordinaries. The bishop CAN say, within his rights, that he wants all Masses in his diocese in Basque. He can, in fact, prohibit the Novus Ordo in Latin. I am not saying such things are REASONABLE, but there you have it.
– Fr. L.
Yes! You are correct! But read the documents more closely and you will see that such things are left up to the local Ordinaries. The bishop CAN say, within his rights, that he wants all Masses in his diocese in Basque. He can, in fact, prohibit the Novus Ordo in Latin. I am not saying such things are REASONABLE, but there you have it.
– Fr. L.
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deogratias
Guest
Dear Father - I would be interested in your book but I sure hope you have a good editor at hand or at least a great spell checker program LOL ----
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deogratias
Guest
Fr. J. L-TIf the only Latin Tridentine Mass available is on the first Saturday of each month at 2 p.m. would attending this meet our Sunday obligation as a vigil Mass or not?
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Fr.JLT
Guest
Dear Deo Gratias,
HAHAHAHA PLEASE don’t remind me!!!
But I can give you two lines. The first one will be to stick my tongue out at you and the seond one is very embarassing to me and you can cane me if you wish! hehehe
English is neither my first language, in fact, it’s my third. And it isn’t the language I use most of the time. NAAAAAAAAA!!! Shame on you! How many language can you claim fluency, eh??? :tsktsk:
Now, I am going to craw under my desk, put tinfoil on my head and then a hardhat, praying that I could just disappear with this line:
Um . . . I actually hold Bachelor’s and Master’s Degrees in English, Suma Cum Laude, in fact, from very strict schools. And I do tutelage in grammar and pronunciation on the side. :bigyikes: But NOT spelling!!! hehehe
So, afteryou pick yourself up off the floor from reading that last line, perhaps you’ll be most merciful and just let me walk away, very quietly, tail between my legs. You can smirk behind my back if you wish (though I’ll feel it anyway). heheheehhe
I have contacted the Vatican to promote the Causes of two people who should be canonized, PRONTO! The first is that man who developed the stick but non-stick glue on the back of Post-It notes. I already burn a modest candle before his statue.
The second is the person or persons, team or teams who developed Spell Check. When I create an image to represent that, there will be 7 lampstands and nonstop incense burning before it.))
– Fr. L.
PS. Seriously, though, I am VERY VERY blessed. The EmCee from my Latin (tridentine) Mass is a full-fledged professor shared between a local Ivy League and non Ivy-league school, well-published. (Yes, I think there are about 3, maybe 4, conservatives in higher education in the USA today. We are doing everything to protect his life and health. HAHAH) And, as it jsut so happens, his son is a publisher. So I should have progress on my side. The problem might be that I am a philosophical and logical thinker. I have my personal tastes which I cherish and express in my music collection ,the colors I use for paint, the artwork I buy, etc etc, but my book is much more about an objective look at Sacrosanctum Concillium from a gernuinely “in the trenches” perspective. After all, burocrats wrote it inthe 60’s “revolution.” I have to live it, in the fallout. However, in trying desperately to be objective, to keep love for the Church and obedience as top priorities, and puting my personal tastes and preferences (which are not doctrinal at all) aside, I tend to lose the emotional aspect of things and come across as my friend, George W. does . . . much too liberal for the conservatives and much too conservative for the liberals. BUT HEY! YOu know you are taking the genuine middle road when you are beign attacked by BOTH sides, right? and what is the old Latin dictum? If I spell it correctly, Virtus in media stat. Virtue stands in the middle. And oh, what a challenge it is not to fall into the pure emotionalism of the left nor the bare bones legalism of the far right.
Pray for me! I do it for you! Know you or not, I pray for you sevberal times a day and offer the Sacrifice for you. If you happen to think of it sometime, offer your Holy Communion for me some time. Don’t doubt, I WILL know you have.
– Fr. L.
HAHAHAHA PLEASE don’t remind me!!!
But I can give you two lines. The first one will be to stick my tongue out at you and the seond one is very embarassing to me and you can cane me if you wish! hehehe
English is neither my first language, in fact, it’s my third. And it isn’t the language I use most of the time. NAAAAAAAAA!!! Shame on you! How many language can you claim fluency, eh??? :tsktsk:
Now, I am going to craw under my desk, put tinfoil on my head and then a hardhat, praying that I could just disappear with this line:
Um . . . I actually hold Bachelor’s and Master’s Degrees in English, Suma Cum Laude, in fact, from very strict schools. And I do tutelage in grammar and pronunciation on the side. :bigyikes: But NOT spelling!!! hehehe
So, afteryou pick yourself up off the floor from reading that last line, perhaps you’ll be most merciful and just let me walk away, very quietly, tail between my legs. You can smirk behind my back if you wish (though I’ll feel it anyway). heheheehhe
I have contacted the Vatican to promote the Causes of two people who should be canonized, PRONTO! The first is that man who developed the stick but non-stick glue on the back of Post-It notes. I already burn a modest candle before his statue.
The second is the person or persons, team or teams who developed Spell Check. When I create an image to represent that, there will be 7 lampstands and nonstop incense burning before it.
))– Fr. L.
PS. Seriously, though, I am VERY VERY blessed. The EmCee from my Latin (tridentine) Mass is a full-fledged professor shared between a local Ivy League and non Ivy-league school, well-published. (Yes, I think there are about 3, maybe 4, conservatives in higher education in the USA today. We are doing everything to protect his life and health. HAHAH) And, as it jsut so happens, his son is a publisher. So I should have progress on my side. The problem might be that I am a philosophical and logical thinker. I have my personal tastes which I cherish and express in my music collection ,the colors I use for paint, the artwork I buy, etc etc, but my book is much more about an objective look at Sacrosanctum Concillium from a gernuinely “in the trenches” perspective. After all, burocrats wrote it inthe 60’s “revolution.” I have to live it, in the fallout. However, in trying desperately to be objective, to keep love for the Church and obedience as top priorities, and puting my personal tastes and preferences (which are not doctrinal at all) aside, I tend to lose the emotional aspect of things and come across as my friend, George W. does . . . much too liberal for the conservatives and much too conservative for the liberals. BUT HEY! YOu know you are taking the genuine middle road when you are beign attacked by BOTH sides, right? and what is the old Latin dictum? If I spell it correctly, Virtus in media stat. Virtue stands in the middle. And oh, what a challenge it is not to fall into the pure emotionalism of the left nor the bare bones legalism of the far right.
Pray for me! I do it for you! Know you or not, I pray for you sevberal times a day and offer the Sacrifice for you. If you happen to think of it sometime, offer your Holy Communion for me some time. Don’t doubt, I WILL know you have.
– Fr. L.
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deogratias
Guest
Fr. L-T - indeed I will pray for you and all piests. I currently attend a Tridentine Mass each Sunday, thanks be to God and the good Bishop Olmsted for granting this Diocese the Indult.
As for your spelling - I hope you know it was in jest and I think you do.
But I am serious about wanting to know when your book is published.
Again good luck on your book and perhaps you can get Karl Keating to write a preface for you.
As for your spelling - I hope you know it was in jest and I think you do.
But I am serious about wanting to know when your book is published.
Ah yes, my most favorite priest who is a personal friend often says, “one can fall into the ditch on either side of the road”. The middle ground, I believe, the ground that the Church wants us to walk. Not to be extreme on either side.
Again good luck on your book and perhaps you can get Karl Keating to write a preface for you.
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Fr.JLT
Guest
Hello, Deo Gratias again!
Okay, you people are getting entirely addicitve, I am loving all of you and you are making me stay up entirely too late.)
So, did you look me up? Huh? You know who I am, Huh? Think you’re the big guy on th eblock now, Huh?)))
If you found me, then check more carefully, it is the first SUNDAY of the month at 2 PM. If you found someplace that misprinted it, PLEASE do tell.
At the same time, I would like to stay to a degree anonymous. This IS the Internet after all and it doesn’t take much to register and get on here. There can be plenty of freaks that would get to me and, believe me, I deal with enough of them already since we are inthe phone book. :-(((
A Mass at 2pm on a Saturday, I don’t believe, would suffice anywhere for the Sunday Mass. And, since it it under the 1962 rubrics and anticipated Masses were not aloowed, I would presume (just thinking with you out loud here) that such a Mass would not be fulfilling of the SUnday obligation. The decrees along the years are very clear that there isw not to be a mixing of rituals.
If, however, it happens to be at 2 PM on a SUNDAY, yes, it does fulfill your obligation. I do add a blurbn at Homily time, as I observed from another priest, anouncing that this particular mass is Kosher.
Personally, I would like to see the Tridentine Mass at my parish a weekly thing, just alongside the other Masses, as it is in many places including in extremist France and Germany. When I arrived here, the Sunday (day) Masses were at 9 and 11:30. No need for that gap so I moved them to 9 and 11. Currently, it’s monthly at 2 PM. That’s late. It’s better for thsoe who travel but just a b loddy in-the-middle-of-nowhere time for everyone else. It could be changed to an evening Mass (but we priestly types call those Sunday evening Masses MOLD Masses. heheh Masses Of the Living Dead. They tend to be the catch-alls from around the area of those who wer5e too hung-over to get up Sunday morning. We could do 7AM but people traveling wouldn’ appreciate that. (We are the only legit 1962 Mass in the Diocese and the Diocese covers a large geographic territory). We could do maybe 1 PM but . . it make sme nervous. The 11 AM Mass here is the Summa and if we have anything festival (for instance, our many Eucharistic processins, Parish picnic, fund-raising lunceons, etc) happens immediately following the 11 AM Sapnish Mass.
AND STOP MAKING FUN OF MY SEPELLIONG!
– Fr., L.
Okay, you people are getting entirely addicitve, I am loving all of you and you are making me stay up entirely too late.
)So, did you look me up? Huh? You know who I am, Huh? Think you’re the big guy on th eblock now, Huh?
)))If you found me, then check more carefully, it is the first SUNDAY of the month at 2 PM. If you found someplace that misprinted it, PLEASE do tell.
At the same time, I would like to stay to a degree anonymous. This IS the Internet after all and it doesn’t take much to register and get on here. There can be plenty of freaks that would get to me and, believe me, I deal with enough of them already since we are inthe phone book. :-(((
A Mass at 2pm on a Saturday, I don’t believe, would suffice anywhere for the Sunday Mass. And, since it it under the 1962 rubrics and anticipated Masses were not aloowed, I would presume (just thinking with you out loud here) that such a Mass would not be fulfilling of the SUnday obligation. The decrees along the years are very clear that there isw not to be a mixing of rituals.
If, however, it happens to be at 2 PM on a SUNDAY, yes, it does fulfill your obligation. I do add a blurbn at Homily time, as I observed from another priest, anouncing that this particular mass is Kosher.
Personally, I would like to see the Tridentine Mass at my parish a weekly thing, just alongside the other Masses, as it is in many places including in extremist France and Germany. When I arrived here, the Sunday (day) Masses were at 9 and 11:30. No need for that gap so I moved them to 9 and 11. Currently, it’s monthly at 2 PM. That’s late. It’s better for thsoe who travel but just a b loddy in-the-middle-of-nowhere time for everyone else. It could be changed to an evening Mass (but we priestly types call those Sunday evening Masses MOLD Masses. heheh Masses Of the Living Dead. They tend to be the catch-alls from around the area of those who wer5e too hung-over to get up Sunday morning. We could do 7AM but people traveling wouldn’ appreciate that. (We are the only legit 1962 Mass in the Diocese and the Diocese covers a large geographic territory). We could do maybe 1 PM but . . it make sme nervous. The 11 AM Mass here is the Summa and if we have anything festival (for instance, our many Eucharistic processins, Parish picnic, fund-raising lunceons, etc) happens immediately following the 11 AM Sapnish Mass.
AND STOP MAKING FUN OF MY SEPELLIONG!
– Fr., L.
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deogratias
Guest
I won’t tell who you are but it wasn’t hard to figure out LOL
Well it was the parish web site that has the error of the Mass day which I thought was odd. Ecclesia Dei has the day listed correctly on its list of Masses however -
I’ll pray that you can have a weekly Mass. Ours is at 1 p.m. - but weekly - but I’d rather have it then than try to sandwich it in between any N.O. Masses. When I lived in Colorado Springs we had a 7 a.m. time delegated but we never could have a Missa Cantata and always had to have a hurried low Mass so we could get done, get the altar changed, the kneelers removed and so on for the 8:30 Mass at the Cathedral. Having it later we can take as long as we wish.
Well it was the parish web site that has the error of the Mass day which I thought was odd. Ecclesia Dei has the day listed correctly on its list of Masses however -
I’ll pray that you can have a weekly Mass. Ours is at 1 p.m. - but weekly - but I’d rather have it then than try to sandwich it in between any N.O. Masses. When I lived in Colorado Springs we had a 7 a.m. time delegated but we never could have a Missa Cantata and always had to have a hurried low Mass so we could get done, get the altar changed, the kneelers removed and so on for the 8:30 Mass at the Cathedral. Having it later we can take as long as we wish.
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Fr.JLT
Guest
Rut roh!
The parish web site? I didn’t know it still existed. We have had major problems with the parish ISP and I thought it was long gone. :-(((
Yes, weekly is so much better than monthly. I don’t care which ritual is being observed, there is a calendar and rythm to it. “The 22nd Sunda after Pentecost” really doesn’t have much to say if there isn’t a 21st and 23d also.
If you know who I am then this is the poop:
The former bishop, now retired, was the only one not to reject Ecclesia Dei. He gave the insult to the ALTAR, not to the priest. Any priest in good standing can come here and celebrate the Tridentine mas on the 1st Sunday of the Monthnow here. Before that, the indult wa granted to a differnet churhc about a mile from here.
Thi is all organize by the local Una Voce group. Wjhen I came on board, it was made clear that we could do this, at this time, in thiis place, with no advertisement, and that there would be a rotation of priests. There was not to bne one priest celebrating the Mass regularly. Unfortunately, the “Archdeacon” at the time, a local priest, was put in charge of this de facto and was very very much against it. He did everything he could to thwart it. I would jump in at the last minute (hed call me, in fact, at 2:30 one SUnday when the Mass was to start at 2PM when I was at a parish much farther form here) and I’dmake it happen. Yes, even when it started that late. Since then, gee whz! Surprise surprise! He has been dismissed from his office and is now on a leave of absence for “personal reasons.”
As such, the parish at which it was held thogh they were the very bees knees of the universe. The pastor was under HUGE pressure from the choir that this Mass was just too much of a burden for them. Bishop wrote to me and asked me to take the Mass. Of course, I did!!!
So many of the Hlier than Thous at the high places in the other parish refused to drive the mile down to us, here 8in the ghetto, fearing for their lives. ( I don’t make this up!!! This is from letters., phone calls, e,mails and face-to-face confrontations). Incidentally, that church and rectory have experienced many many more legal problems than we have. So they just made excuses. On the matter of not advertising, I am planning now on advertising, once I get a chance to make a becoming ad for the local rag and the Diocesan paper. They are expensive, though. But we have a new Bishop, and the non-advertising rule was under the old bishop. (Don’t knock him, we got the Mass that all the other bishops refused to allow! Inch by inch by inch!) It is easier to get pardon than permission and, seriously, methinks that ban on advertising came more from that other priest in charge – no longer in charge – than from the bishop. Time to try. What’s the cost? Only money. I am a pastor now. They can’t touch me. They can yell and scream at me but they can’t touch me, unless there are civil legal charges against me.)
So, all of that is to explain that I am not the one who determined the time and place for the 1962 Mass here. I am not the Chaplian to the group. ( I refused the chaplaincy no on any groujds toher than I’ve got enough work already just in parrochail matters, which must take priority, to make me immortal!!) Essentially, I am nothing but the celebrant of the Mass. There NEEDS to be a movement afoot, genuinely and officially, for changes to be made. Of course, I can petition the Bishop. That’s wonderful. But in a “special” Mass such as it is, if no one wants to come to it, what use is there in that? Yes, I would like it weekly, daily, in fact. But this is defintiely something that needs to come from the folks who treeasure the Tridentine Mass and want to reamin Kosher in attending. So, if we are on the same page and we kow each other, then . . . get to work!))
– Fr. L.
The parish web site? I didn’t know it still existed. We have had major problems with the parish ISP and I thought it was long gone. :-(((
Yes, weekly is so much better than monthly. I don’t care which ritual is being observed, there is a calendar and rythm to it. “The 22nd Sunda after Pentecost” really doesn’t have much to say if there isn’t a 21st and 23d also.
If you know who I am then this is the poop:
The former bishop, now retired, was the only one not to reject Ecclesia Dei. He gave the insult to the ALTAR, not to the priest. Any priest in good standing can come here and celebrate the Tridentine mas on the 1st Sunday of the Monthnow here. Before that, the indult wa granted to a differnet churhc about a mile from here.
Thi is all organize by the local Una Voce group. Wjhen I came on board, it was made clear that we could do this, at this time, in thiis place, with no advertisement, and that there would be a rotation of priests. There was not to bne one priest celebrating the Mass regularly. Unfortunately, the “Archdeacon” at the time, a local priest, was put in charge of this de facto and was very very much against it. He did everything he could to thwart it. I would jump in at the last minute (hed call me, in fact, at 2:30 one SUnday when the Mass was to start at 2PM when I was at a parish much farther form here) and I’dmake it happen. Yes, even when it started that late. Since then, gee whz! Surprise surprise! He has been dismissed from his office and is now on a leave of absence for “personal reasons.”
As such, the parish at which it was held thogh they were the very bees knees of the universe. The pastor was under HUGE pressure from the choir that this Mass was just too much of a burden for them. Bishop wrote to me and asked me to take the Mass. Of course, I did!!!
So many of the Hlier than Thous at the high places in the other parish refused to drive the mile down to us, here 8in the ghetto, fearing for their lives. ( I don’t make this up!!! This is from letters., phone calls, e,mails and face-to-face confrontations). Incidentally, that church and rectory have experienced many many more legal problems than we have. So they just made excuses. On the matter of not advertising, I am planning now on advertising, once I get a chance to make a becoming ad for the local rag and the Diocesan paper. They are expensive, though. But we have a new Bishop, and the non-advertising rule was under the old bishop. (Don’t knock him, we got the Mass that all the other bishops refused to allow! Inch by inch by inch!) It is easier to get pardon than permission and, seriously, methinks that ban on advertising came more from that other priest in charge – no longer in charge – than from the bishop. Time to try. What’s the cost? Only money. I am a pastor now. They can’t touch me. They can yell and scream at me but they can’t touch me, unless there are civil legal charges against me.)
So, all of that is to explain that I am not the one who determined the time and place for the 1962 Mass here. I am not the Chaplian to the group. ( I refused the chaplaincy no on any groujds toher than I’ve got enough work already just in parrochail matters, which must take priority, to make me immortal!!) Essentially, I am nothing but the celebrant of the Mass. There NEEDS to be a movement afoot, genuinely and officially, for changes to be made. Of course, I can petition the Bishop. That’s wonderful. But in a “special” Mass such as it is, if no one wants to come to it, what use is there in that? Yes, I would like it weekly, daily, in fact. But this is defintiely something that needs to come from the folks who treeasure the Tridentine Mass and want to reamin Kosher in attending. So, if we are on the same page and we kow each other, then . . . get to work!
))– Fr. L.
D
deogratias
Guest
Well we don’t know each other and unfortuantely I live in Arizona and you in Massachusetts so I can’t be of much help except through prayer.
But we have a similar situation here now in that we have a rotation. Sometimes the priest does not show up and we have to call in one who is always willing (like you) to do it and would like to do it on a regular basis but that is not to be yet. It is amazing to me that even when none shows up, we all just sit and say a rosary and wait - last time we waited 45 minutes. Only about half a dozen people left.
At this time the Bishop requires that we maintain other community activities with the exception of attendance at the TLM in our home parishes. We are not at this time to consider ourselves a formal community or be considered part of the St. Thomas the Apostle Parish where the Mass is celebrated.
But this is not the end, and we have been told that this first year is to get the young priests trained and retired priests retrained if necessary so that the Mass is said properly without deviations.
After May the Bishop said he is willing to let the Holy Spirit take this group where He will. Perhaps even resulting in a Latin Mass Community or perhaps even into a separate parish.
God speed you in your efforts to facilitate those who love the Tridentine Mass -
Thanks for sharing your story with us…
But we have a similar situation here now in that we have a rotation. Sometimes the priest does not show up and we have to call in one who is always willing (like you) to do it and would like to do it on a regular basis but that is not to be yet. It is amazing to me that even when none shows up, we all just sit and say a rosary and wait - last time we waited 45 minutes. Only about half a dozen people left.
At this time the Bishop requires that we maintain other community activities with the exception of attendance at the TLM in our home parishes. We are not at this time to consider ourselves a formal community or be considered part of the St. Thomas the Apostle Parish where the Mass is celebrated.
But this is not the end, and we have been told that this first year is to get the young priests trained and retired priests retrained if necessary so that the Mass is said properly without deviations.
After May the Bishop said he is willing to let the Holy Spirit take this group where He will. Perhaps even resulting in a Latin Mass Community or perhaps even into a separate parish.
God speed you in your efforts to facilitate those who love the Tridentine Mass -
Thanks for sharing your story with us…
K
katolik
Guest
Perhaps, he was talking about the Lasallette prophecies which state “Rome shall become the seat of the Antichrist”? Maybe, you just misheard.
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katolik
Guest
Do they still have strict parish boundaries where you live? Here in Detroit, people go to any parish they want to… Fr.Borkowski even asked people at the TLM to sign up for his parish.
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deogratias
Guest
No we don’t have strict boundries but I don’t think the pastor at the Parish where the TLM is celebrated is equipped to take on 400 more parishoners
D
deogratias
Guest
Believe me I did not mishear -
A
albert_cipriani
Guest
Dave quotes Pope Pius VI’s as saying that it’s
To the contrary, isn’t it the current liturgy’s absence of discipline that is dangerous or harmful to the faithful? Isn’t it the fact that Novus Ordo masses violate disciplines (altar girls for decades prior to their being approved, extraordinary ministers used as ordinary ministers, the abolition of kneeling) that is the heart of the harmful problem from which Traditionalists flee?
Doesn’t Pope Pius the VI’s qualification of “harmful” disqualify it for application to the “disciplines” Traditionalists’ eschew? To quote him again, the kind of harm he envisioned in us avoiding the disciplines of the Church was that “leading to superstition and materialism.”
Are you suggesting that celebrating the Tridentine Latin Mass can lead to superstition and materialism? Rather, doesn’t the lack of dogmatic clarity and Eucharistic reverence endemic to the Novus Ordo rite breed a materialistic view of the Mass as merely a communal meal and hint at the dogma of the Real Presence being a pre-Vatican II superstition? – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
Dave concludes from this that: “The current liturgy therefore, cannot be dangerous or harmful to the faithful.”
To the contrary, isn’t it the current liturgy’s absence of discipline that is dangerous or harmful to the faithful? Isn’t it the fact that Novus Ordo masses violate disciplines (altar girls for decades prior to their being approved, extraordinary ministers used as ordinary ministers, the abolition of kneeling) that is the heart of the harmful problem from which Traditionalists flee?
Doesn’t Pope Pius the VI’s qualification of “harmful” disqualify it for application to the “disciplines” Traditionalists’ eschew? To quote him again, the kind of harm he envisioned in us avoiding the disciplines of the Church was that “leading to superstition and materialism.”
Are you suggesting that celebrating the Tridentine Latin Mass can lead to superstition and materialism? Rather, doesn’t the lack of dogmatic clarity and Eucharistic reverence endemic to the Novus Ordo rite breed a materialistic view of the Mass as merely a communal meal and hint at the dogma of the Real Presence being a pre-Vatican II superstition? – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
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albert_cipriani
Guest
Dave quotes P. Hermann Institutiones Theologiae Dogmaticae 4th ed., Rome: Della Pace, 1908, vol. 1, p. 258]:
“The Church is infallible in her general discipline. By the term general discipline is understood the laws and practices which belong to the external ordering of the whole Church. Such things would be those which concern either external worship, such as liturgy and rubrics, or the administration of the sacraments. . . .”
This is but one man’s opinion, Dave. So how do you square that one opinion with the opinions of the following, popes, holy men, and renowned theologians:
Venerable Pope Pius Ix (1846-1878):
“I am only the pope. What power have I to touch the Canon?” In response to requests that he add the name of St. Joseph to the Canon of the Mass.”
Francisco Suarez, S.J. (1548-1617) Called By Pope Paul V Doctor Eximius Et Pius (Most Exalted And Pious) Considered The Greatest Theologian Of The Society Of Jesus:
“If [the pope] gives an order contrary to right customs, he should not be obeyed; if he attempts to do something manifestly opposed to justice and the common good, it will be lawful to resist him.” (De Fide, Disp. X, Sec. VI, N. 16)
Francisco De Victoria, O.P. (1480?-1546) Theologian
"If the pope destroys the Church by his orders and acts, he can be resisted and the execution of his mandates prevented.
Juan Cardinal De Torquemada, O.P. (1388-1468) Given By Pope Eugenius Iv The Title Of “Defender Of The Faith”:
"By disobedience, the Pope can separate himself from Christ despite the fact that he is head of the Church, for above all, the unity of the Church is dependent upon its relationship with Christ… In this way, the Pope would, without doubt, fall into schism…
"He would do that if he did not observe that which the Universal Church observes in basing herself on the Tradition of the Apostles… Especially is this true with regard to the divine liturgy, as, for example, if he did not wish personally to follow the universal customs and rites of the Church. This same holds true for other aspects of the liturgy in a very general fashion, as would be the case of one unwilling to celebrate with priestly vestments, or in consecrated places, or with candles, or if he refused to make the sign of the cross as other priests do, or other similar things which, in a general way, relate to perpetual usage in conformity with the Canons.”
– Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/
“The Church is infallible in her general discipline. By the term general discipline is understood the laws and practices which belong to the external ordering of the whole Church. Such things would be those which concern either external worship, such as liturgy and rubrics, or the administration of the sacraments. . . .”
This is but one man’s opinion, Dave. So how do you square that one opinion with the opinions of the following, popes, holy men, and renowned theologians:
Venerable Pope Pius Ix (1846-1878):
“I am only the pope. What power have I to touch the Canon?” In response to requests that he add the name of St. Joseph to the Canon of the Mass.”
Francisco Suarez, S.J. (1548-1617) Called By Pope Paul V Doctor Eximius Et Pius (Most Exalted And Pious) Considered The Greatest Theologian Of The Society Of Jesus:
“If [the pope] gives an order contrary to right customs, he should not be obeyed; if he attempts to do something manifestly opposed to justice and the common good, it will be lawful to resist him.” (De Fide, Disp. X, Sec. VI, N. 16)
Francisco De Victoria, O.P. (1480?-1546) Theologian
"If the pope destroys the Church by his orders and acts, he can be resisted and the execution of his mandates prevented.
Juan Cardinal De Torquemada, O.P. (1388-1468) Given By Pope Eugenius Iv The Title Of “Defender Of The Faith”:
"By disobedience, the Pope can separate himself from Christ despite the fact that he is head of the Church, for above all, the unity of the Church is dependent upon its relationship with Christ… In this way, the Pope would, without doubt, fall into schism…
"He would do that if he did not observe that which the Universal Church observes in basing herself on the Tradition of the Apostles… Especially is this true with regard to the divine liturgy, as, for example, if he did not wish personally to follow the universal customs and rites of the Church. This same holds true for other aspects of the liturgy in a very general fashion, as would be the case of one unwilling to celebrate with priestly vestments, or in consecrated places, or with candles, or if he refused to make the sign of the cross as other priests do, or other similar things which, in a general way, relate to perpetual usage in conformity with the Canons.”
– Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic geocities.com/albert_cipriani/index.html
groups.yahoo.com/group/ReligiousPhilosophy/
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albert_cipriani
Guest
Since VCII the Church has stated over and over again pope Paul VI’s “wish” that the new liturgy be accepted. So does the repetition of that wish for the past 40 years make the wish infallible? Does such an oft-repeted wish trump the Papal Bull Quo Primum by St. Pope Pius the V that the Tridentine Mass shall always be celebrated and cannot be suppressed? I quote the pertinent section here:
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