Must we believe in the Toll Houses?

[Lasse]

I don’t believe in Toll houses, but I know some who do. I guess we will all find out soon enough. The path of salvation is the same anyway. I know that I must put my trust in Christ and try to be humble a loving person.

 

[George720]

I am very confused as to why and how the Toll Houses are not the Purgatory ….

Rome has shifted Her understanding of purgatory across the years - It used to be that She thought that punishment purged sins, so that when we die, our unrepented sins could be purged by our suffering the fires of hell in a limited way until by its unbearable agony our unreported sins are burned out of us and we are thereby made fit for entry into God’s Paradise…

It turns out now that such an account is not a part of the Patristic witness of the Church, but is a late comer filled with all manner of issues…

So now, She teaches that purgatory is the temporary abode for those awaiting the Last Judgement, and is a Mystery, wherein our prayers and repentances for those therein have effect for the reposed for whom they are done… So this is closer…

A so called “Toll House” is a pass-through gate of demonic accusation, through which we all, (almost at least) pass through, where the various “Houses” are the domains of the demon of each of the sins which afflict us on earth…

And if we harbor a secret sin which we conceal and do not repent of, when we pass through that demon’s ‘gate’, we will be accused truthfully, and will come into the captivity of that demon, and will ascend no further… And that captivity is foul, but the difference between Orthodox and Rome is that we do not regard this captivity as purgative, but as our just reward for our sin, and it is here that we will abide until the Last Judgement…

Unless, of course, we find intercession by someone on earth for our captivity who can move us through it by prayers or alms or other acts of virtue on our behalf…

We have a fair number of Saints who have seen the captivity of sinners after death, beginning perhaps with Lazarus of 4 days dead, who is reported to have only smiled once in the rest of his life after being raised from the dead…

The basic difference is the idea of such suffering in the captivity of demons is for us not a purgative, but a “natural” consequence of our manner of life on earth… We see it pretty much as hell, but not necessarily as permanent…

I have had a lot of arguments with Calvinists, telling them that it is Satan and his dominions who are our enemy, and not some offended God - Never to much avail, mind you…

geo

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

now, She teaches that purgatory is the temporary abode for those awaiting the Last Judgement

Although the rest of your post is excellent, and your assessment of previous Roman teaching on purgatory looks spot on, this part of your post isn’t Catholic teaching.

The Catholic Church teaches that souls can be released from purgatory and enter Paradise prior to the Last Judgment.

Incidentally as well (not commenting on your excellent post @George720) , I just looked up purgatory in the Catechism and it is explicit that the purifications experienced in purgatory are “entirely different” from the punishment experienced in hell.

 

[George720]

Incidentally as well (not commenting on your excellent post @George720) , I just looked up purgatory in the Catechism and it is explicit that the purifications experienced in purgatory are “entirely different” from the punishment experienced in hell.

Thank-you…

We have a couple of understandings -

The destination of those condemned at the Last Judgement is the “Lake of 'fire” which is utterly Mysterious, and is understood as Christ Himself being absolute Love encountering the hate-filled…

Before that comes demonic entrapment which is disgusting and horrid for those caught…

Paradise is now for those not ensnared by demonic powers after death…

The Age to Come is then I think something other than (and better than??) Paradise…

fwiw, I always seem to manage to get Catholic doctrines mis-stated - Thank you for the corrections…

And for your kindness in them…

geo

 

[George720]

I just looked up purgatory in the Catechism and it is explicit that the purifications experienced in purgatory are “entirely different” from the punishment experienced in hell.

Has the old teaching then been eclipsed? Because the purification was by temporal punishment, on the idea that punishment purifies one of sin… And the old purchasing of Indulgences was for the duration of this extremely painful punishment to be shortened by the Church acting as a mediator with Her prayers…

The Orthodox see suffering as a means of overcoming sin, and not always voluntary suffering, (but often so)… But we do not see it as a purgative of sins - Instead we see it as a means of repentance… And not specifically, qua pain, a purgative of sin…

I mean, we have here this idea that a person “pays for” his crimes by incarceration - That he has almost ‘purchased’ his release from them, which in incarcerational terms is true, but not in terms of his proclivity to re-offend… Deterence not being the purgation of the desire to commit the same crime…

So we have the time between now and the Last Judgement, and after that, the Age to Come… And locating Paradise in this schema is kind of relevant, and the heavenlies and heaven itself, whatever that is - “The New Jerusalem”?? - are all features and terms that come into play, and especially now that “The Kingdom of Heaven” is AT HAND… eg Is here and now… No small matter - And is entered at Baptism… And the Faith is a Mystery held by a purified conscience…

Heaven would seem to be the Paradise of the Good Thief attained after death prior to the Last Judgement… Hell would seem to be one’s subjection to demonic powers after death… The “Toll House” descriptive would then be the particular determinant of one’s entrapment by demonic powers, according to which unrepented sin caused the entrapping… Or is hell the Pit of Fire entered into after the Last Judgement?

Not an easy topic…

geo

 

[CathBoy1]

The lake of fire is hell eternal.

As for the toll houses, personally I do not believe in them, I think they’re more of a allegory or metaphor for something that is real, But I don’t think that they are a good equivalent to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, I think a better equivalent in terms of Eastern Orthodoxy would be the process of theosis after one passes to the next life, it is my understanding (which is perhaps limited so please make corrections) in Eastern Orthodoxy that the departed continue on their journey of theosis, let’s say when one first enters the heavenly light upon their arrival, perhaps when first entering into that light it burns as a fire (separate from the lake of fire) and perhaps that burning could be seen as a burning away of sin, and as the departed continues on their journey that burning turns into ecstasy or joy (perhaps there is a better term) this can be seen as purgatory entering into heaven, I think understanding purgatory as this from an Eastern Orthodox view would be a better example or equivalent.

 

[twf]

The concept that heaven, purgatory, and hell are all an experience of the intense fires of a God’s love, but as experienced by different souls in different states, is also found in the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI…

 

[CathBoy1]

Absolutely and that’s kind of what I was touching on in my above post, I think that from an EO viewpoint this is a better equivalency for purgatory than the aerial toll houses.

 

[George720]

Purgatory (eg The process of theosis after one passes to the next life…
That the departed continue on their journey of theosis…

I understand Theosis to be an event, not a process,
which the Apostle Paul described in Second Corinthians:

12:1-4
I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body, I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body, I cannot tell:
God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man,
(whether in the body, or out of the body,
I cannot tell: God knoweth
How that he was caught up into paradise,
and heard unspeakable words,
which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

So you can see that it is an unspeakable encounter with God in His Paradise that Christ called a Vision when He commanded Peter, John and Iakovos to “Tell no one of this Vision…” as they came off the Mountain (Tabor) after witnessing His Transfiguration…

Have you read The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church? Lucifer fell from his high stature through pride, as we are elevated to those heights through humility… God is lowly of heart, as we are ourselves to become, and this is an earthly becoming, which determines our function in the Life of the Age to Come… Or as Christ is recorded as saying in Psalm 82: Ye are gods, and all of you sons of the Most High… THAT is our Birth-right, which most of us, and especially I myself, piddle away in the vain and trivial pursuits of our earthly pre-occupations…

Thank-you for your effort to understand what has been the Center of Eastern Christianity for the last 2000 years… It is only known by entry, prepared by purification of the heart, and given directly by God… Paul did not have it because Ananias Baptized him into Christ… eg It is not given by Baptism, though for some very few, it CAN be… And BY Christ, it was only given to the three, and one of these was not even one of the 12… It is not understood by any other means than entry into it by God at God’s time and choosing and purposing…

Man’s efforts in repentance only increase his capacity to receive and retain it when it does come from God… And as He caused to be written: “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy…”

God bless you on your journey - The Way is narrow and obstructed, but open to a penitent heart seeking to do good in the face of the death in which we are born and live until we pass from this temporal body of death into eternity…

geo

 

[twf]

I understand Theosis to be an event, not a process,

Catholicism would see theosis or deification or sanctification (pick your term) as a lifelong process starting at baptism…growing in holiness, becoming more Christ-like, as we are nourished by the Eucharist and carry out good works. It definitely starts with baptism for Scripture says we “put on Christ” at baptism. Could it not be said to be both an event and a process? Does it have to be either / or?

 

[CathBoy1]

I understand Theosis to be an event, not a process

Event sounds like a one time thing to my ears, I had thought theosis was a process or journey that starts in this life and continues in the next, am I mistaken?

God bless you on your journey - The Way is narrow and obstructed, but open to a penitent heart seeking to do good in the face of the death in which we are born and live until we pass from this temporal body of death into eternity…

Thank you, God Bless you as well brother.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I understand Theosis to be an event, not a process,
which the Apostle Paul described in Second Corinthians:

Hi @George720 I want to make sure I understand your statement here before offering any comment. Are you saying that Theosis is a one-time event, analogous to the Protestant notion of salvation as a one-time event rather than a lifelong process? If this is an accurate understanding, then it’s far from what the Fathers of the East and West teach us.

If, on the other hand, I’m not clearly understanding you (which is the much more likely scenario), then forgive me. Do me a mercy and please clarify for my feeble mind.

 

[George720]

Are you saying that Theosis is a one-time event,

I am saying that Theosis is an event…

Why are you adding “one time”?

Paul described his Theosis in 2Cor12…

Peter, John and Iakovos had theirs…

Nobody abides in Theosis…

It can go on for a tenth of a second for up to 10 days…

For Moses, he spent 40 days on that mountain in the dark cloud…

The Theotokos for 9 months had Christ Himself in Her very womb…

No one other than her even comes close…

No one has ever managed to attain Her purity of heart…

Perhaps Moses comes closest, who shone so bright he had to cover his face…

Yet John the Baptist is the Greatest of all the OT Saints…

The problem for Protestants is that they are unprepared for it by having lived a repentant life prior to the encounter… Theosis is a kind of encounter with God that is a union with Him… It is the Marriage of the Lamb… It is the experience of Life Eternal in God… It is given for a short time, and is life transforming, however long it lasts… I saw it overwhelm a sociopath once online - Totally unrepentant… He was apologizing for having feelings of Universal Love - Said he is NOT like this, and will be back to normal soon… He never quite made it back to normal… Nor could he…

So that for Protestants it is a one-time remembered Spiritual Event that was their turning point to Christ, often as some low point in their lives, and they “recall” being “Saved” back on January 6th, 1953, in Wilmington Delaware, and First Baptist Church, etc etc…

It is but rarely given, and easily spotted… The whole of the discipling of the Church is centered on its acquisition from God… When a Protestant makes an Altar Call and consecrates him or her self to God, good spiritual things happen normally, and it is a very remembered event, accompanied by extraordinary Grace, but this is not Theosis… I have met two Protestants who have known it, a man and a woman, both very lovely and wonderful souls… It’s Grace does not withdraw easily if it happens to one who has been prepared by deep repentance… Whereas Protestants commonly experience its withdrawal… Ascetics cultivate it in very enhanced asceticism…

It is commonly thought to be an ongoing process, a gradual acquisition of holiness, and while there is such a thing, it is not the Event that Theosis is… Nor did Paul seem to think it is an ongoing and deepening process, did he? That is the job of our soul’s journey, the acquisition of the Holy Spirit through time…

Theosis is an event that CAN happen during one’s normal Life in Christ… Some can go in and out of it… It is, I should think, the basis for bi-location, telepathy, etc… It is, in a way, a Spiritual Apostolic Anointing, I would suppose… It is often, on Mt Athos, accompanied by the Uncreated Light that makes daylight surround the person even at night…
The person who has experienced it walks not in Theosis but in the Illumination of the Nous…

Enough!

geo

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Theosis is an event that CAN happen during one’s normal Life in Christ… Some can go in and out of it… It is, I should think, the basis for bi-location, telepathy, etc… It is, in a way, a Spiritual Apostolic Anointing, I would suppose… It is often, on Mt Athos, accompanied by the Uncreated Light that makes daylight surround the person even at night…

This makes more sense to me, but appears to be more along the lines of what Mar Isaac of Nineveh calls “pure prayer” and not so much “theosis” in particular.

 

[George720]

This … appears to be more along the lines of what Mar Isaac of Nineveh calls “pure prayer” and not so much “theosis” in particular.

How to give meaning to a word that is not a common experience is hard… I have not read St. Isaac of Nineva on “pure prayer”… Many of our kontakia sing of it in terms of an encounter in which a Saint becomes God-like in a direct encounter with God “In so far as he could bear it”… It is the “Godding” by God of man, the participation of man in Divinity while still on earth… It is common to both the OT and NT, and it IS Salvation in the Old Testament, given to men who were not Baptized into Christ-God… We produce a ton of Saints now relatively speaking compared to OT times… And this because in Baptism we become a new creation in Christ… In OT times, the Saints were not so conjoined, because Christ had not yet lived and died as the God-man into Whom we are baptized and therein become enhypostatically changed - Followed by the discipling of the Church, which disciples the Way of Sainthood…

It is a singularly enlightening event, yet it still took Pentecost for the Apostles to come into the Power of the Holy Spirit… With Theosis, one knows God, but with Pentecost, one is saturated in His Power… The sequencing of the feast days of the Church Calendar are much like the sequencing of the events of discipleship…

And the whole of it is Mystery… You see, there was Salvation in both the old and the New Testament times… Yet OT saints at their best and greatest, were less than the least of the NT faithful baptized into Christ, (as Christ is recorded as saying regarding John the Baptist), and this because of the ontological enhypostatic rebirth of Baptism… It is Baptism that differentiates the two Salvations… The rebirth of Baptism and its Anointing… Which is the entry of the person so Baptized into the Kingdom of Heaven…

Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven (Christ Himself) is at hand…

Yet the acquisition of the Holy Spirit is normally fulfilled in Theosis… Yet nothing can be predicted… Insofar as we are able to receive and retain it… It is the overflowing of Grace into one’s soul, and we keep it according to our repentance, and the rest passes over us unretained… Which is why preparation in discipleship is so important…

“I once knew a man…” Gotta love Paul…

geo

 

[poche]

Even some Eastern Orthodox don’t believe in toll houses. Here is from Bojan;

 

[Kmon23]

I am also an Orthodox that does not believe in tollhouses. But they are a useful tool for spiritual evaluation of oneself, and if anything would be an highly allegorical representation of the judgement to come.

 

[George720]

I am also an Orthodox that does not believe in tollhouses.

I keep remembering St. John’s response to a discussion of them, of the demons that ARE the “toll-houses”… eg. “Have you seen one?” If your answer is no, then “believing in” toll-houses would be an error, and one would be well advised then to simply know that according to Church Tradition, friend Lazarus of 4 Days Dead, never laughed for the rest of his life after being brought back from the dead, with but one exception, which I have forgotten…

But if your answer to St. John’s question is yes, then you don’t have to “believe in” Toll Houses - You know what they refer to… And you know that they are not cute little wooden booths at Disneyland or the State Fair, where you can deposit a coin and pass through as you thank the smiling attendant who takes your ticket…

Which Orthodox are you? (eg oca, rocor, etc)

geo

 

[Kmon23]

Personally, considering St. Mark of Ephesus being a pillar of orthodoxy, I believe his description of the soul post-mortem is the most clear teaching on what we believe. And his description doesn’t seem particularly related to toll-houses.

And I don’t think anyone would posit post-mortem process as “pleasant.” After all, it is the “dread judgement seat of Christ.” And I wouldn’t be surprised if we are accused by the demons as we are judged by Christ. But toll-houses as a doctrine go beyond that in detail.

I was baptized and have always been part of the Bulgarian Orthodox Archdiocese of USA, Canada, Australia America (although I myself am not Bulgarian).

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I wouldn’t be surprised if we are accused by the demons as we are judged by Christ.

One of my favorite names for the the devil from the Desert Fathers is “the Calumniator” (often translated in modern English as “the Accuser”). I like this name because it reminds me that although the devil will try to twist my voluntary and involuntary sins to make them out to be worse, Christ our dread judge knows the true state of my heart.