Mutual masturbation

[tjm190]

I don’t know why I didn’t respond to the entire post at once, but here we go…

Also look at the consequences of this sin. It is also a form of birth control.

it is not.

Look at what has happened to our society since abc was available.

It is not new- people have just been demanding more of it recently.

Divorce rates increased which caused more poverty,

…not only have you not shown how ABC, let alone masturbation, led to divorce rate but how on Earth have divorce rates led to poverty?

latch key children,

I’m kinda confused about the terminology

abortion became something that was okay,

And the causal relationship is demonstrated by?

and sexual intimacy between man, wife and God became just mutual pleasure.

That’s called secularization. It isn’t new either

God is taken out of the act because there is no possibility for life.

No possibility? Really? Who manufactures this contraceptive?

There is no union between man and wife in intercourse which brings the couple together literally as one flesh.

The one flesh is the creation of a child is it not? Are no children conceived when contraception is used?

 

[onmyknees]

While I believe 100% what the Church teaches about masturbation, I agree that it’s pretty shaky to cite Matt 5 on this point.

I can think of lots of sins that can be done by the right hand, and 90% of them ain’t sexual!

The better approach is to use scripture to explain how Jesus gave the Apostles (and thus their successors) the authority to teach and clarify as needed. If that premise is in place, then we can trust that the Holy Spirit guides the Church with regards to masturbation (since it falls under the faith/morals umbrella).

onmyknees onmyknees is online now
Junior Member

Join Date: September 17, 2007
Posts: 244
Religion: catholic
Default Re: Mutual masturbation
Quote:
Originally Posted by TedDC View Post
All that hard work, prayer and discernment mean nothing if they can’t produce a compelling argument that masturbation is an intrinsic moral wrong, as opposed to merely a violation of arbitrary man-made rules.
Arbitrary man-made rules? Have you not read Matt 16. When Jesus gave Peter (the first pope) the keys to the Church and said,“What you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.” And 2 Peter 1:20-21 “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” And John 16:12 He says,“I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. But when the Spirit of Truth comes He will lead you to complete Truth.”

And on masturbation. Matt.5:30 “And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.”

---

Thou hast made us for Thyself O’ Lord and our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee.
St. Augustine
Reply With Quote

surritter, I did give examples of three scriptures that say how the apostles were given the authority to make the decisions guided by the Holy Spirit. See above. And in Matt 5 29-31 Jesus is talking about sexual sin!

"You hace heard what it was said,‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that your whole body be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
It was also said,‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress’ and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

 

[onmyknees]

I don’t know why I didn’t respond to the entire post at once, but here we go…
it is not.
It is not new- people have just been demanding more of it recently. …not only have you not shown how ABC, let alone masturbation, led to divorce rate but how on Earth have divorce rates led to poverty? I’m kinda confused about the terminology And the causal relationship is demonstrated by? That’s called secularization. It isn’t new either No possibility? Really? Who manufactures this contraceptive?
The one flesh is the creation of a child is it not? Are no children conceived when contraception is used?

How can mutual masturbation not be birth control? The act is not open to giving life. Unless you mean just foreplay.

When did I say birth control was new. I said when it became widely available. Which was in the 60’s.

Statistics have shown that the start of divorce rates rising and increasing sexual immorality correlates with the start of abc and its increased use.

Divorce causes many single parents. They have to feed and clothe, their children and pay day cares so they can work. With one income this can lead to more poverty.

Latch key children are at home alone until their parent gets home from work.

I have seen many medical charts where women were using abc and when it failed they would have abortions or they would space their babies by just using abortion as their birth control. Part of the downward moral decline.

I didn’t say it was new. And secularization happened because…

Mutual masturbation is not procreative.

The one flesh union means that the two become one flesh as it says in scripture. This is also the unitive part and procreative part of the act. When one uses abc yes, they can still conceive a child if it fails but they are also taking the creator God out of the act. They are not open to life. Birth control can also abort the baby in the womb.

By the way I had been away from the Church for a long time and so I have experienced sex with my husband the secular way and the Catholic way and I have to tell you it is so much more fulfilling and beautiful the Catholic way. You really should try obeying the teachings of the Church. It brings peace and joy.

 

[surritter]

“God is taken out of the act because there is no possibility for life.” – No possibility? Really? Who manufactures this contraceptive?

TJM: in response to “God is taken out of the act because there is no possibility for life” you wrote

“No possibility? Really? Who manufactures this contraceptive?”

I know you’re being sarcastic, but that is totally irrelevant. Is there a better rebuttal? Because this one point is the real crux of the matter, not the other things…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Can I just get this straight…you guys really believe that if my wife performs oral sex on me resulting in orgasm, and I know the church’s stance on this, and I don’t feel bad for it in the least, you truly believe that I will go to hell, despite loving God and trying to be a good and moral person?

I do.

It was not the answer I was hoping for, either.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You have to realize, that if I don’t believe it is a sin, how could I KNOW it is a sin. If I believed it was a sin, I still wouldn’t “know” it was a sin. I know what the church thinks about it (though I am pretty sure if I asked my priest this question he wouldn’t agree with you) but I don’t agree with what you guys are saying here.

Let’s say that you don’t “KNOW” it is a sin. However, you obviously “KNOW” that it might be a sin. Therefore, you are under the obligation to inform yourself and form your conscience properly.

 

[Randy_Carson]

What if Catholicism is the wrong religion? What if you will not be in heaven because you do not believe in Shiva? Or what if you go to hell because you don’t pray towards mecca? Because your belief that the Catholic Church promotes the right ethical system is not held by most of the world…and frankly, it doesn’t seem more valid than a lot of other ethical systems around the world either.

This is a pretty big can of worms…are you asking these questions hypothetically, or do you really need proof that Christianity is true?

 

[tjm190]

How can mutual masturbation not be birth control? The act is not open to giving life. Unless you mean just foreplay.

Birth control is a product that reduces the likelihood of conception during intercourse. With mutual masturbation, there is no intercourse.

When did I say birth control was new. I said when it became widely available. Which was in the 60’s.

It became available because demand for it increased.

Statistics have shown that the start of divorce rates rising and increasing sexual immorality correlates with the start of abc and its increased use.

A. What statistics B. How do you know which one is causing the other? Or whether or not both are the result of some other phenomena?

Divorce causes many single parents. They have to feed and clothe, their children and pay day cares so they can work. With one income this can lead to more poverty.

Because there is no such thing as child support? I’m sure this has led to poverty in some cases, but do you have anything that suggest this is happening on a large scale?

Latch key children are at home alone until their parent gets home from work.

That has to do with single parents. Not mutual masturbation or contraception.

I have seen many medical charts where women were using abc and when it failed they would have abortions or they would space their babies by just using abortion as their birth control. Part of the downward moral decline.

I didn’t say it was new. And secularization happened because…

You tell me

Mutual masturbation is not procreative.

This is true.

The one flesh union means that the two become one flesh as it says in scripture. This is also the unitive part and procreative part of the act. When one uses abc yes, they can still conceive a child if it fails but they are also taking the creator God out of the act. They are not open to life. Birth control can also abort the baby in the womb.

If a child is conceived, does this mean God did not will that child? Do some children God willed not get conceived?

By the way I had been away from the Church for a long time and so I have experienced sex with my husband the secular way and the Catholic way and I have to tell you it is so much more fulfilling and beautiful the Catholic way. You really should try obeying the teachings of the Church. It brings peace and joy.

I’m glad you found happiness.

 

[tjm190]

TJM: in response to “God is taken out of the act because there is no possibility for life” you wrote

“No possibility? Really? Who manufactures this contraceptive?”

I know you’re being sarcastic, but that is totally irrelevant. Is there a better rebuttal? Because this one point is the real crux of the matter, not the other things…

Alrightie-

I suppose the proper rebuttal would be to ask for a further explanation of his view point. It doesn’t seem like you can get from 1. (reduced) probability of conception to 2.God is taken out. in a single step.

 

[surritter]

One of God’s roles in marriage is to introduce new life, with the cooperation of the spouses. So to intentionally shut out the possibility is to shut the door on God.

 

[tjm190]

One of God’s roles in marriage is to introduce new life, with the cooperation of the spouses. So to intentionally shut out the possibility is to shut the door on God.

So a marriage ‘shutting out’ the possibility for new births shuts the door on God? Even temporarily?

 

[surritter]

Yes even temporarily. BUT, I should clarify – the sin is in how the door is shut, not the mere idea that a baby is not wanted right now.

NFP folks might have the intention of avoiding new life, but they are not distorting God’s design to do so.

I guess what I’m saying is that there’s a difference between slamming the door in God’s face (ABC) and not wanting to open the door at this time (NFP).

 

[tjm190]

Yes even temporarily. BUT, I should clarify – the sin is in how the door is shut, not the mere idea that a baby is not wanted right now.

Abstinence removes the possibility for life being brought into a marriage does it not? How’s God supposed to create new life if the couple won’t play ball?

NFP folks might have the intention of avoiding new life, but they are not distorting God’s design to do so.

Altering is the same as distorting?

I guess what I’m saying is that there’s a difference between slamming the door in God’s face (ABC) and not wanting to open the door at this time (NFP).

Both remove children from the marriage, and since God made marriage to bring about children…

 

[surritter]

Yes, abstinence removes the possibility of bringing about new life. But the desire to avoid new life is not necessarily sinful. Sorry if I implied that; I tried to clarify in the last post.

Both NFP and ABC are used to avoid bringing about new life (well, NFP can be used to help get pregnant, but we’ll leave that aside). But as I have stated, the desire to avoid pregnancy is NOT necessarily a sin. When one goes ahead with the ACTION of sexual intercourse, but has methods in place to really NOT have intercourse, it is a sham.

 

[Gianna11]

Here’s my question, which has bugged me for a long time, but I’ve been too ashamed to ask anyone, even a priest about this…

How much of a sin is it for the wife, if she engages in this stuff strictly at her husband’s insistence, even though she has tried unsuccessfully, many times, to get him to do things the “normal” way, with the only result being endless arguments and insults? He used to be a good Catholic, but has fallen away, and nothing she says or does seems to be able to get him to come back.

Moreover, what if “normal” sex has become difficult for them due to her weight gain and his having other physical problems… she feels she has no right to try to ask him to change his ways unless and until she loses weight, which would take months, perhaps even a year or more if she started today, and be extremely difficult, since she is a compulsive overeater? And, how can she ask him to give up a bad habit when she can’t give up her own?

We have been living apart for over a year (yeah, my weight got worse during that time) but he will be coming back home shortly, and I know it’s going to be a hard enough adjustment as it is, without me suddenly laying down the law on this point… believe me, I would give up this practice and go totally “proper” – NFP, strict marital chastity – if it were up to me; but I can’t do it without risking World War III in our house, so I don’t know what to do.

I have been operating on the assumption that since this is something my husband has demanded of me, he’s basically forced on me, and I cannot change him, that it may not necessarily be a mortal sin for me. I really want to change the situation, though, I just don’t know how. If I really am committing mortal sin, I’m screwed because I don’t see any way out short of divorcing him, which doesn’t seem right either.

We have one child who is developmentally disabled and completely dependent on us, and likeliy to be so well into adulthood. We had every intention of having more children but when she had this problem, my husband absolutely refused to consider having any more children and that’s how he got into this habit, though I tried and tried to make him change his mind.

 

[surritter]

Gianna–
Please, DON’T be embarrassed to discuss this with a priest. They’ve heard it all, believe me! Perhaps call another parish and ask to make an appointment with the priest. Or if you wish to be unseen, go to confession behind the screen and during the confession you can explain the situation.

I feel great compassion for you and your situation. Keep in mind that most of what this thread is discussing is the objective morality of the issue. So while the stuff you are dealing with might cross into this area, there are numerous factors in your situation which can dramatically alter your personal culpability.

So it’s impossible to say “how much of a sin” this is for you; that’s where a priest is essential. But now you know the objective teaching that Catholics believe, and the question about how to approach your husband on this is a prudential matter. But hopefully a priest will never tell you that it’s OK to just keep doing it since your husband is the one driving it. Let’s see what other folks have to say regarding your question…

 

[curl]

Moreover, what if “normal” sex has become difficult for them…

Dear Gianna,

There are many wise people with good advice here, so I hope you get some helpful answers. I can only offer my heartfelt sympathy…

My wife and I have not had any sort of sexual contact in years (although we still love each other and still live in the same house). After deciding to overcome my own sexual impurity and living clean for the past year, I have been starting to wonder if, when, and especially how my wife and I would start reconnecting, since “mutual” had been our primary mode of dealing with our physical difficulties with “normal sex” in the past.

Praying for us all,

• curl

 

[fbl9]

Dear Ginna: i can only offer the advice to see your parish preist,yes it may less uncomfortable in seeing another,but this will help him connect with his parishoneers,namely you…i can understand that perhaps your fear that your priest may look down on you but this truly shouldn’t be a fear cause if you let this fear get the better of you it can lead to your spiritual decline.

It is my opinion only that i can give not the guidence you truly need…to me in your situation perhaps maybe the unhealthy relation with your husband is the cause of your overeating.If this situation ,the unhealthy reltionship were to be cured, your view of yourself would be increased which would make it easier for you to feel better of your self and much more able to tackle your own personal problem.

 

[fbl9]

OK — I agree with you there; as foreplay between married persons, MB is OK. Sorry, I just didn’t understand what you were saying in the previous post.

That’s good for awhile i thought you were of the idea that anything other than intercourse was wrong. ie no touching scrictly intercourse

 

[zach_dunn]

This is just my opinion (and I know I’ll get jumped on for it, perhaps someone has already mentioned this too), but, I think the people advocating mutual masturbation are just grasping at straw-like justification for their own desires . . . it’s called “temperance” and then “fortitude.” That’s just my :twocents: