My Athiest family

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So you’re telling me that the catholic church looks upon a merciful God as heresy? Good. Because this is the same church that started the holy crusades that killed thousands and the same church that started the spanish inquisition that not only killed thousands but brought about the most inhumane torture devices the world has ever seen. This same church must close hundreds of churches to pay the legal bills for it’s hundreds of pedophile priests, and this church beleives that a loving powerful God is not capable of saving his own creation. You speak like a fool and I’m glad that your religion disagrees with me.
 
Glass houses. Wait till the last day and we get to learn about YOUR sins. It is said the gates of hell are locked on the inside. Some people do choose hell. They don’t want to go to heaven. Your God forces them to go to heaven. He forces them to love him whether they want to or not. They have no freedom to choose or love. Isn’t that akin to rape? What kind of God is it that you worship who would turn us into robots or force himself on us against our will?

Different when the shoe is on the other foot is it not?
 
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therealgoodnews:
So you’re telling me that the catholic church looks upon a merciful God as heresy? Good. Because this is the same church that started the holy crusades that killed thousands and the same church that started the spanish inquisition that not only killed thousands but brought about the most inhumane torture devices the world has ever seen. This same church must close hundreds of churches to pay the legal bills for it’s hundreds of pedophile priests, and this church beleives that a loving powerful God is not capable of saving his own creation. You speak like a fool and I’m glad that your religion disagrees with me.
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You better check your facts. The Catholic Church did not start the crusades, they were a defense of Christianity from the attack of Muslims. The Church didn’t start the inquisition either. Yes, people from The Church participated, but it was not a sanctioned action by the Holy See. We believe 100% in a God that can save His creation. We also believe 100% in a God that loves us enough to let us choose whether to spend eternity with Him or without Him. That’s as merciful as it gets!
 
Whether or not the catholic church started the crusades or participated in them makes no difference, the bottom line is that they felt justified in killing in the name of Jesus. The inquisition was most definetely started by the Catholic church. Thank you cestusdei for your unscriptural two cents. You say that God will not force people to love him. Oh really!! If I show you an example of just that in scripture will you continue to deny? God gave us a sample of how he saves and he didn’t use a simple prostitute or tax collector. He used the self described “cheif of all sinners” Saul. Was Saul (later named the apostle Paul) looking for Jesus? Was he seeking out Jesus? Did he say the sinner’s prayer? No, actually he was too busy persecuting christians by ripping them out of their homes, imprisoning them, and having them stoned to death. So God in an instant of flashing light saved Saul and turned him into the greatest evangelist the world has ever seen. Was it Paul’s free will that he accepted Jesus or did God force him to become saved? Case rested. Once you accept the scriptural truth that as Paul said “it is by God’s grace that you have been saved. It is NOT (I repeat NOT) the result of anything you have done on your own, but God’s gift, so NOONE can boast about it.” Eph 2:8 Jesus said “You do NOT choose me I CHOSE YOU” John 15:16 Let me enlighten you with what the scriptures say about God’s plan for mankind. Eph 1:10 states “This plan which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring ALL CREATION TOGETHER (that doesn’t leave anybody out does it?), everything in heavan, on earth, and under the earth (even a supposed hell?) with Christ as head. All things are done according to God’s own plan and decision, and God CHOSE US (you mean we didn’t choose him of our own free will? sarcasm added) to be his own people in union with Christ because of his own will.” And what is God’s will? ITim 2:4 “God WILL have ALL MEN BE SAVED and come into a knowledge of the truth.” Is this scripture too hard for you to understand? Yet you still deny? God’s saving power was powerful enough to save the worst of all sinners without their permission, so I’m sure God can save other punt sinners without their ok.
 
John Yurich:
No it is not harsh because sometimes the truth is harsh. And someone did mention about having Masses said for Lillith’s parents after they pass away and having Masses said for them is praying for them, which would be useless if they do not repent before they pass away and wind up in Hell.

John
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what do they have to repent of? they are not Christians who rejected the faith, they are people who have never heard properly and accepted the faith, there is a difference. absolute condemnation is reserved for those who hear, believe, and then apostasize. read the many other threads on this topic for the excellent discussions based on scripture and the catechism, and then the CA tract on salvation. Unless you know something we don’t you have not been elected to the damnation swat team so it is presumption on your part to make such a declaration.
 
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puzzleannie:
what do they have to repent of? they are not Christians who rejected the faith, they are people who have never heard properly and accepted the faith, there is a difference. absolute condemnation is reserved for those who hear, believe, and then apostasize. read the many other threads on this topic for the excellent discussions based on scripture and the catechism, and then the CA tract on salvation. Unless you know something we don’t you have not been elected to the damnation swat team so it is presumption on your part to make such a declaration.
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Unfortunately, you are a little mistaken, my parents have heard. As children growing up, and later through me (there have been many discussions). My parents reject the notion outright. They are darwinists.

Mind you I am not judging that they will be in Hell…it’s just an educated guess

Read Luke 13:24-30…
 
real,
So God doesn’t respect us? Can you force someone to love you? Maybe kidnap them and take them to a nice place? Would that be just and kind? Even if they were screaming and fighting to get away? So God doesn’t allow human freedom. He is a divine dictator who imposes his will? Think about it. I must say you are the perfect example of someone who takes our Bible and uses it to say whatever he wants it too.

In fact God does want to save us, he does want us in heaven, he will forgive sinners, BUT we must cooperate freely. We must repent. Nothing unclean can enter heaven. We can’t take our sins in with us. If we commit mortal sin and don’t repent we choose to reject God. He allows us to do that. If you don’t like that then you obviously are only selectively reading into the Bible what you want to hear. Perhaps you don’t want to give up some of your sins, so you pretend God doesn’t care what you do.

Btw, I suggest you actually do some reading on what the Inquisition really was. Really, it is embarassing when you spout off and don’t know what you are talking about. Did it ever occur to you how you have the attitude that no one has gotten it right for 2000 years till you came along? What arrogance you manifest.

And for scripture check out II Thess. 2:15, II Thess. 3:6, and I Cor. 11:1. You must not have those in your Bible.
 
cestusdei,

Obviously you either read my previous post and chose to not respond or can’t prove it wrong and just ignored it. You continue to say that God wont force us against our will and I gave you a perfect example right out of scripture and you still deny. Your problem is not with me but with the word of God. Answer my last post about Paul and then we can continue. As far as my attitude that noone has gotten it right for over 2000 years, well my beleifs about universalism were prevalent up until the catholic church started the false teaching on hell in order to keep the unruly in check. They borrowed these teachings from Greek mythology and from the writings of catholic poets Dante and Milton. Roman Catholicism is nothing more than a pagan religion with a loose christian covering.
 
Jesus mentioned hell more then heaven. Check it out for yourself. You may not believe in hell, but you will believe in it if and when you get there. Jesus certainly believed in it. I can quote scriptures, but others have already done that and you ignored them. I still believe you are some kind of cult shill in here trying to convert us to some strange little group. If so then fess up. If you are trying to start your own religion get in line. Lot’s of other guys have misinterpreted the Bible and started their own churches. But the Catholic Church, founded by Christ, will perdure till the end.
 
still you refuse to answer my post…now that’s typical. As far as your religion, I could write a book on the evils it has manufactured upon humanity. Here are a few historical facts. Following the crusades, Spanish leaders needed to unite Spain so Ferdinand and Isabella (both devout catholics) chose catholicism to unite the country. In 1478 they asked the pope to begin the inquisition in order to purify the Spanish of Protestants and jews. Pope Sixtus issued a papal bull giving authority for one of the darkest periods in human history. Pope Paul III started the Roman inqusition in 1542. Pope Innocent IV authorized the use of torture by the catholic church in 1251. Between 1450 and 1570, over 900,000 protestants were put to death in the pope’s holy war to exterminate the Waldenses. I could go on and on and on and…Please let me know if you’d like more examples. Your religion, through so called “religous cleansing” has been responsible for more innocent deaths than Hitlers ethnic cleansing campaigns.
 
As far as Jesus teaching on hell, I’ll explain this one more time. Jesus taught only in parables (Matt 13:34) Whenever he spoke of gehenna (hell improperly translated in the kjv) he was speaking as a metaphor and he was speaking to the jews. This had nothing to do with man’s final destination. If the teaching of hell is so important than why did the greatest evangalist in history (the apostle Paul) NEVER EVER EVER speak of hell even once when preaching to the entire gentile nation. Don’t you think if it was sooooo important he would have at least mentioned the word ONCE? But I can give you at least 25 scriptures where Paul taught of the salvation of all mankind. Explain this to me please. As far as your scriptures you quoted, I already addressed them in another thread. Now it’s your turn to address my questions.
 
Ah so Jesus was speaking only metaphorically? Says who…? You? My what hubris we are showing tonight. Who gave you the authority to interpret what the scriptures mean? Remember the one that says private interpretation is not acceptable? Paul certainly speaks of condemnation and does not speak of salvation as a given. What seminary did you graduate from?

As for the inquisition you can simply go to www.catholic.com and read the essays provided for people like yourself. In fact around 3000 people were executed for heresy in Spain over 300 years. Compare that to the thousands of Catholics killed by your fellow Protestants in Northern Europe. And to compare it to the 20 million killed by Hitler is simply a further illustration of your ignorance and bigotry.

If you think everyone is going to be saved then why, in the hell, are you here? It doesn’t matter if we agree with you or what we do. I can go out and murder a million people, curse God, and shoot myself, and I will still make it to heaven according to you. So why not go out and enjoy yourself rather then argue with us? Go commit some sins. It doesn’t matter, does it?
 
I also have atheist parents and I used to worry a lot. Instead of worrying now, I pray that when they finally see God, they will believe and that God will know the obstacles and their weakness and allow them the chance to accept Him or deny Him upon their death.

I think this part of the catechism may apply. Do they have a moral conscience??

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” 59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct. 1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.
 
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cestusdei:
Ah so Jesus was speaking only metaphorically? Says who…? You? My what hubris we are showing tonight. Who gave you the authority to interpret what the scriptures mean? Remember the one that says private interpretation is not acceptable? Paul certainly speaks of condemnation and does not speak of salvation as a given. What seminary did you graduate from?

As for the inquisition you can simply go to www.catholic.com and read the essays provided for people like yourself. In fact around 3000 people were executed for heresy in Spain over 300 years. Compare that to the thousands of Catholics killed by your fellow Protestants in Northern Europe. And to compare it to the 20 million killed by Hitler is simply a further illustration of your ignorance and bigotry.

If you think everyone is going to be saved then why, in the hell, are you here? It doesn’t matter if we agree with you or what we do. I can go out and murder a million people, curse God, and shoot myself, and I will still make it to heaven according to you. So why not go out and enjoy yourself rather then argue with us? Go commit some sins. It doesn’t matter, does it?
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Good point! I’m curious about the response. If there is no Hell, then what is special about heaven and also what makes believers in God any different than the cruelest most violent non-believer?

They seemed to have picked a religion that makes them feel better, but it doesn’t make much sense to me. No consequences to sin?? Maybe I missed something. I am so glad that Jesus left us with a Church who will protect us from strange teachings such as this one.
 
Are you reading my posts sir or just skimming over them because the truth cuts too deep? It’s not my opinion that Jesus was speaking in parables, it’s IN THE SCRIPTURES!!! I quoted Matt 13:34 “Jesus used parables to teach to the crowds, he WOULD NOT SAY A THING TO THEM WITHOUT USING A PARABLE” There’s your proof so stop accusing me of being boastful. I’m presenting scripture and you’re presenting human logic. I am not a protestant. I belong to no evil manmade religions. I already explained why it’s important to spread the good news even though all will be saved but you obviously are too caught up in trying to spout your catholic manmade dogma. Once again you show your true colors when you say “live it up and sin you’re going to be saved anyway” To you living an immoral life is very gratifying and the only reason you live a good life is out of fear of hell. If you knew for 100% certain that there was no hell and all would be saved would you start to live a sinful life. God can read your heart and I feel pity for you with thoughts like that. I will pray that you worship God out of love for him and not out of fear of his judgements.
 
No hell means no sin. No sin means no need for redemption. No redemption means no need for Jesus or the Cross. Why would God become incarnate and suffer and die for no reason at all? He already had decided to make us all go to heaven whether we want to or not. So forget the cross, resurrection, and even Jesus. We don’t need any of that. Let’s just party and do what we like. Who cares? Obviously not God. Right?

Mt 5:22 - But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire.

Mt 5:29 - If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.

Mt 5:30 - And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Mt 10:28 - And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mt 18:9 - And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

Mt 23:15 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you traverse sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

Mt 23:33 - You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Mr 9:43 - And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.

Mr 9:45 - And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell.

Mr 9:47 -And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell,

Lu 12:5 - But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear him!

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire. The tongue is an unrighteous world among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the cycle of nature, and set on fire by hell.

2Pe 2:4 - For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment;
 
real,
You belong to your own evil man made religion. I belong to Christ’s Church. You simply found your own religion by misinterpreting our Bible. It isn’t your book. It is ours.
 
I will pray for you because since you cannot refute or even answer any of the questions I’ve posed to you I don’t feel the need to continue this. Your like a little child who sticks his fingers in his ears and says the same thing over and over “I’m not listening to you, I cant hear you” I have asked you questions and backed up everything I said with scripture and all you’ve done is make blanket statements and not answered ONE of my questions. I will pray for your understanding…
 
real,
Yawn, I have played Bible badminton with better then you. It NEVER solves anything. I quote verses and you quote verses. But we don’t agree on what they mean. It is a waste of time. You are not the first heretic I have argued with. The “pillar and foundation of truth” according to the Bible is…drumroll…the Church. Not you. You have little education in scripture, theology, or history. You just parrot old anti-Catholic canards and warmed over Protestantism. You are a Protestant btw. I used to be one and can smell one a mile away. You have deluded yourself that you have suddenly discovered this great wonderful “truth” that everyone else has missed or covered up. Yawn, we’ve seen that come and go for 2000 years. But I will give you a verse that applies directly to you to mediate upon:

2Ti 4:3 -For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings
 
I pray for you in my posts and you continue to spew venom and accusations at me in your posts. You can say you won the battle but you can keep your victory because I try to project a Christ like attitude to you and you spew hatred at me. I have planted a seed and the lord will allow it to grow and I pray that it will. God bless you and victory is mine. P.S. you never did answer any of my questions regarding the apostle Paul and how he was saved.
 
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