My Beliefs. What Am I? Am I Lost?

[lemondiesel]

Thanks for taking the time to reply guys. It is greatly appreciated. I am going to go Church again this weekend, see how it is again.

…its been awhile uch:

 

[the_phoenix]

Thanks for taking the time to reply guys. It is greatly appreciated. I am going to go Church again this weekend, see how it is again.

…its been awhile uch:

Praying for you from a short portion of today’s Liturgy of the Hours:

Lord of compassion, make our hearts pure and guide our steps,
so that we remember what is true, and just, and worthy of love.

 

[J_Martinin]

**You are correct for only GOD knows the hearts of men, so only GOD can save. But GOD also organized a religion - the Catholic religion - through which HE has provided many gifts of grace through the sacraments which HE uses to move HIS peoples hearts and greatly assist them in HIS salvation. **

My bible teaches that God alone saves and that He who began a good work will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ; meaning salvation is all of God and none of man and mentions nothing about a saving religion or a saving church, but it does mention about a saving God-man named Jesus, which is why Salvation is of the Lord and for the glory of the Lord.

I can guarantee you on the day of judgment the last thing any one will be asked is what was your religion? Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, Judaism, Protestant, Methodist, Lutheran etc. If God asked why should I let you in heaven, what is going to be a person’s answer? I read the Bible and did this for You and that for you and tried my best to please you? I don’t think so. I read the Koran and did all the Pilgrimages and was a good person; think that will work? I read the OT, kept the law the best I could, and was a good person? Think that will work? I was baptized, performed all the Sacraments, read my bible, attended church, did good deeds and did my best to keep your commandments, and I was a good person overall? Think that will work? Rather the question will be why should I let you in?

Perhaps; there is not a darn reason why You should let me in heaven; I have broken every single one of your laws, and almost every single day I rebelled against you in thoughts, words and deeds. I spent most of my time doing what I wanted instead of spending most of my time giving You the glory You deserve; so the only reason I can give as to why You should let me in heaven is that Jesus died for my sins and the penalty due for those sins and I leaned on His righteousness, not on my own since I have none of my own, so when You see me You see Jesus in me; Your word says this and I trusted my life to Him and to His word. Think that will work? I don’t deserve it, but on the 100% merits of Christ for the propitiation of my sins and obtained His righteousness in Him by faith in Him; I will enter.

That is what I believe and it is what God has taught the believer who is in Jesus. Teach me your ways Lord and I will live by your truth; when I fail, which is everyday, I know I have been forgiven, for You said my sins are removed as far as the east is from the west and buried in the deepest parts of the ocean and You will remember them no more before I was even born and I confess before You and You have every right to inflict punishment or show mercy because I am guilty. Punish me if it pleases You and show mercy if it pleases You because You cause ALL things to work together for good to those who love You and You know my heart and that I love You and I fully trust in You and whatever You decide is not only righteous, but for my good. Here I am Lord; here I am.

 

[Cat_Herder]

My bible teaches that God alone saves and that He who began a good work will perfect it till the day of Jesus Christ; meaning salvation is all of God and none of man and mentions nothing about a saving religion or a saving church

The Bible absolutely DOES mention a saving Church joined together by saving Baptism.

[BIBLEDRB]Col 1:18[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 12:13[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

I can guarantee you on the day of judgment the last thing any one will be asked is what was your religion? Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, Judaism, Protestant, Methodist, Lutheran etc.

Correct. Instead we will have to give an account of our works.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 11:15[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 20:12-13[/BIBLEDRB]

If God asked why should I let you in heaven, what is going to be a person’s answer? … I was baptized, performed all the Sacraments, read my bible, attended church, did good deeds and did my best to keep your commandments, and I was a good person overall? Think that will work?

YES. Not because I have any merit to call my own. But because JESUS COMMANDED ME TO RECEIVE THE SACRAMENTS AND I OBEYED JESUS BECAUSE I LOVED HIM.

The Sacraments were instituted by Jesus and are on the pages of Scripture. They are works of GOD. They are not works of men.

Baptism is required (Mk 16:16), and everyone who has access to Communion must receive (John 6:53). Those who are in sin must confess their sins (Jam 5:13-15).

The other four Sacraments are particular means of grace for states of life. Those who are sick should be anointed (Jam 5:14-15). The other Sacraments are oriented towards vocation/calling: Confirmation is for everyone (Acts 19:5-6); but some are married (Mk 10:7-12), others ordained (1Tim 4:14), and others neither.

Perhaps; there is not a darn reason why You should let me in heaven; I have broken every single one of your laws, and almost every single day I rebelled against you in thoughts, words and deeds. I spent most of my time doing what I wanted instead of spending most of my time giving You the glory You deserve; so the only reason I can give as to why You should let me in heaven is that Jesus died for my sins and the penalty due for those sins and I leaned on His righteousness, not on my own since I have none of my own, so when You see me You see Jesus in me; Your word says this and I trusted my life to Him and to His word. Think that will work? I don’t deserve it, but on the 100% merits of Christ for the propitiation of my sins and obtained His righteousness in Him by faith in Him; I will enter.

Faith alone does not save.

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]

Baptism and repentance does.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 2:37-38[/BIBLEDRB]

That is what I believe and it is what God has taught the believer who is in Jesus. Teach me your ways Lord and I will live by your truth; when I fail, which is everyday, I know I have been forgiven,

If you repent and amend to sin no more, He will forgive you.

[BIBLEDRB]Heb 10:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

He will not forgive you if you simply call him “Lord, Lord” and go on as you were before.

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 7:21[/BIBLEDRB]

for You said my sins are removed as far as the east is from the west and buried in the deepest parts of the ocean and You will remember them no more before I was even born and I confess before You and You have every right to inflict punishment or show mercy because I am guilty. Punish me if it pleases You and show mercy if it pleases You because You cause ALL things to work together for good to those who love You and You know my heart and that I love You and I fully trust in You and whatever You decide is not only righteous, but for my good. Here I am Lord; here I am.

He will then ask for a rendering of your works.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 4:5[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:5-11[/BIBLEDRB]

Faith avails much, but only if it works through love.

[BIBLEDRB]Gal 5:6[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 4:8[/BIBLEDRB]

Otherwise, it is dead and useless to save you.

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:14-17[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Windfish]

If it means anything, lemon, I was in a very similar position not too long ago. In fact, it was my sophomore year in college when my philosophy teacher started teaching a lot of what you are espousing. He basically made Jesus out to be just a semitic Buddha, and, for a while, I bought it and starting talking about the “kingdom of heaven within you” and all that jazz, and it meshed quite well with my distrust of the supernatural and the Church in general. When I was confronted by atheists for the first time, I used my new, esoteric Christianity to try to persuade them, and it just didn’t work. Stripping Christianity to just those esoteric teachings makes it lose its force, mystique, and relevance. More than that, I soon found out that it was really strained in light of what is actually written in the Gospels, and that it was terribly anachronistic with Jesus and the context in which he came into the world. If I were to transport myself to the first century, no one would know what the heck I was talking about. So it was from that utter failure that I renewed my Catholic faith.

 

[Julian0404]

The Bible absolutely DOES mention a saving Church joined together by saving Baptism.

[BIBLEDRB]Col 1:18[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 12:13[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:3-4[/BIBLEDRB]

Correct. Instead we will have to give an account of our works.

[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor 11:15[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Rev 20:12-13[/BIBLEDRB]

YES. Not because I have any merit to call my own. But because JESUS COMMANDED ME TO RECEIVE THE SACRAMENTS AND I OBEYED JESUS BECAUSE I LOVED HIM.

The Sacraments were instituted by Jesus and are on the pages of Scripture. They are works of GOD. They are not works of men.

Baptism is required (Mk 16:16), and everyone who has access to Communion must receive (John 6:53). Those who are in sin must confess their sins (Jam 5:13-15).

The other four Sacraments are particular means of grace for states of life. Those who are sick should be anointed (Jam 5:14-15). The other Sacraments are oriented towards vocation/calling: Confirmation is for everyone (Acts 19:5-6); but some are married (Mk 10:7-12), others ordained (1Tim 4:14), and others neither.

Faith alone does not save.

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]

Baptism and repentance does.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 2:37-38[/BIBLEDRB]

If you repent and amend to sin no more, He will forgive you.

[BIBLEDRB]Heb 10:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]

He will not forgive you if you simply call him “Lord, Lord” and go on as you were before.

[BIBLEDRB]Mt 7:21[/BIBLEDRB]

He will then ask for a rendering of your works.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 4:5[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:5-11[/BIBLEDRB]

Faith avails much, but only if it works through love.

[BIBLEDRB]Gal 5:6[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Peter 4:8[/BIBLEDRB]

Otherwise, it is dead and useless to save you.

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:14-17[/BIBLEDRB]

An excellent apology for the faith, well done.

 

[Cat_Herder]

An excellent apology for the faith, well done.

:tiphat: Thank you!

 

[fhansen]

I was raised Christian by an extremely devote follower, my Grandmother. Went to church every Sunday until about high school. Christians schools all the way.

I still remember the exact moment I became skeptical of the Bible. I was sitting in my religion course sophomore year of high school, and we were discussing some of the stories. I understood that the Bible was more symbolic than actual, but I just had those lingering questions. My question was, “How do we know which ones God wants us to take as real or fake?” No answer…

I was kicked out of class…to sit in the principles office. That was it for me, I was going to allow myself to look beyond this belief system; I just really didn’t care.

College came around and I experienced ups and downs. Experienced drugs. I mean, I was trying to enjoy college. Isn’t this what everyone does!

I transferred to a new school after freshman year, and for some reason my life changed.

I’m a junior now, and I am more confused than ever. Yeah schools fun, classes are easy, that stuff makes sense. But I am thinking of the future, and I don’t know what to expect. Every civilization rises, only to fall. Archeology has shown the top species go extinct.

I wanna believe there is some form of God. I would love to die and be given eternal life and happiness. I was once asked “Is suicide still bad if you’re curious?” I was like “…What? I don’t effing know, that’s way too deep right now!”

That very question drove me to think about this issue, read the Bible, and relate it to other things.

I follow the Bible, it is my religion, but I do not follow any of the monotheistic separations.

My belief is that the Bible was written by men. I believe they are no different physically then any of us, but mentally these men were by far some of the greatest writers in human history. I believe that the ‘Holy Spirit’ is the realization that we are conscious, we exist. We are no different from any other species on this planet. We must love each other, everyone should be taken care of.

The Bible is a book, and its not just a fiction book. Its a ‘movie’ based on true events. The writers couldn’t explain what happened before, they weren’t present. They did the best they could to explain it, but they did it in a story.

And it is impossible to say the Bible is non contradicting. Yet I simply refuse to accept it as a ‘fiction book’ that many of my friends believe. All of these stories, have to have some meaning…some purpose.

I am not saying its all true, I believe there were probably some people along the way that added stuff to change the story, but that’s just my opinion.

I believe the Bible is a story of consciousness. The hidden meaning of the story is that we are all ‘Gods’ because we recognize Being. With this power, comes responsibility. God (our love for everything, the equality conscious) battles the Devil (The skeptical conscious, Ask questions, knowledge)

Just a few examples, which are important in my beliefs:

Revelations. it describes that humans will witness many tragedies. We will witness horrible things towards mankind, but never see the a comforting “god” to come save the day. This will cause us to question his existence. This will result in us creating divisions, estrangement between each other. ‘Hell’ will take over, a ‘questioning’ conscious. Yet there will be a day when we will be push to extinction, and only love towards all will allow us to survive. No divisions between us

Leviticus 20:13 (I bring this up, as one that plays a contradicting role.) The man and woman relationships serves a purpose. Beyond the companionship, which a male can feel with another male, the purpose for man and woman is create new life. Their lives continue with generations, and that generation would stop if man lays with another man.

Genesis 9:20-21 Man discovered a way of altering consciousness. It causes us to go back to a state like Adam and Eve, naked, away from consciousness.

Please guide me. Being lost in the dark without light is a scary thing.

Be my flashlight.

We have to allow for- to recognize -the existence of evil in order to make sense of this world. That appears to be lacking in your beliefs. In any case, yes, you’re lost. Like the rest of us, you don’t know where you came from, if anywhere, don’t know why you’re here, if there’s a reason, and don’t know where you’re going, if anywhere. That’s why we need revelation-to help find our way home. Otherwise we’re just a bunch of cattle, heading for slaughter.

 

[DanteAlighieri]

If you follow the teachings of Jesus in the Bible, you must include the ones in which he vested Peter with the authority to teach in Jesus’ name and promised that the Holy Spirit would guide him and the Apostles to the Truth. This is the founding of the Catholic Church, and the source of her authority on faith and morals.

We cannot rely on ourselves or other people alone to reveal Truth to us – that road is too subjective. This is why Christ gave us a Church: to provide an authority to guide the choices that we make in a world full of moral ambiguity and subtle attacks on our morality. Without that authority, we are left to fend for ourselves with only chance determining whether we get any particular moral or faith choice right.

I urge you to consider the Scriptures from a submissive point of view. That is, offer to God your desire for Truth and let Him guide you. Do not get too comfortable with your feeling that you “understand” the Scriptures on your own; open yourself to the possibility that there’s more to it than you realize and that the breadth and scope of Scripture’s message requires Divine guidance.

Peace,
Dante

 

[J_Martinin]

The Bible absolutely DOES mention a saving Church joined together by saving Baptism.

Otherwise, it is dead and useless to save you.

[bibledrb]James 2:14-17[/bibledrb]

The Bible talks about the church which is built, maintenanced, and in Him, by Him and for Him; known as His spotless and blameless bride. Not a saving church, but rather those in His church are the saved. Big difference in context and meaning. Hope you get that straightened out.

If you believe not in faith and trust in your works; then you will not enter into His rest according to Scripture and the reason is because you are in effect saying there is something righteous in yourself that adds to the atoning work of Christ.

Anyone can make the Scripture fit their preconceived notions about salvation, but in the end is all of faith and a true and saving faith will result in righteous works as God has already prepared before the Christian was even born.

If you read Titus 3 and against Romans 3; you will see the faith as the reason for salvation. Works and good deeds and holy living will mark out the Christian from the world, but it is not the basis of salvation, but rather the result.

So when you say you will enter on works; before you can say works of your own you will be grabbed by the arms and escorted by two angels to a place you do not want to be. That is my understanding of God’s word. i have never heard anyone say thank you God for giving me the grace to do works pleasing to you for my salvation nor can I find a writer that ever prayed or said such a thing as that. But we all have different views on salvation, but the true church has a singular view on salvation, which is why the Bible says His bride is united in Him, by Him and for Him.

Have you ever heard of Mark Driscoll? He is a pastor and has a 6 minute video snippet on Jesus Christ verses religion and it is very interesting how he compares or rather contrasts the differences and I believe he has nailed it on the head.

If you ever want to see it I then will give you the link, but a more appropriate subscription or thread would be something on salvation or I guess a title could be “Jesus verses religion”

For me it is each to his own belief’s because in the end God will perfectly sort out the goats from the sheep where ever they are, have been or will be. I think we can both agree on that aspect.

Peace
JM

I spelled my last name wrong when I signed up…LOL S/B Martini, not Martinin…not sure how I added that extra “n”. Don’t know how to fix it other than starting a brand new account, which seems like a waste.

 

[J_Martinin]

If you follow the teachings of Jesus in the Bible, you must include the ones in which he vested Peter with the authority to teach in Jesus’ name and promised that the Holy Spirit would guide him and the Apostles to the Truth. This is the founding of the Catholic Church, and the source of her authority on faith and morals.

We cannot rely on ourselves or other people alone to reveal Truth to us – that road is too subjective. This is why Christ gave us a Church: to provide an authority to guide the choices that we make in a world full of moral ambiguity and subtle attacks on our morality. Without that authority, we are left to fend for ourselves with only chance determining whether we get any particular moral or faith choice right.

I urge you to consider the Scriptures from a submissive point of view. That is, offer to God your desire for Truth and let Him guide you. Do not get too comfortable with your feeling that you “understand” the Scriptures on your own; open yourself to the possibility that there’s more to it than you realize and that the breadth and scope of Scripture’s message requires Divine guidance.

Peace,
Dante

I mentioned to the person called CatHerder that some subscription with a title of “Jesus verses Religion” would be a good platform for this type of discussion. The rules that I read imply to me that this thread is not the right one for this discussion since the discussion here was about a specific person with a specific question, which seems to have been answered.

i don’t know how to start a thread or what the appropriate category it would fall under; I see apologetics with subdivision of sacred scripture or perhaps some other category???

 

[Cat_Herder]

The Bible talks about the church which is built, maintenanced, and in Him, by Him and for Him; known as His spotless and blameless bride. Not a saving church, but rather those in His church are the saved. Big difference in context and meaning. Hope you get that straightened out.

The Church is the Body of Christ. Baptism makes someone a member of this Body, which as you correctly indicate results in salvation so long as that person abides with Him (i.e. does not deny Him by mortal sin). There’s nothing else to straighten out.

If you believe not in faith and trust in your works; then you will not enter into His rest according to Scripture and the reason is because you are in effect saying there is something righteous in yourself that adds to the atoning work of Christ.

Anyone can make the Scripture fit their preconceived notions about salvation, but in the end is all of faith and a true and saving faith will result in righteous works as God has already prepared before the Christian was even born.

No True Scotsman fallacy. All I have to do is bring out Person X who said the Sinner’s Prayer and went on to become a serial rapist. “Oh, Person X is not a REAL Christian!” Oh yes he is. He is one of the tares or goats; Jesus said that the Church would consist of both the saved and the reprobate. That serial rapist could even confess and repent before dying and so become one of the saved.

If you read Titus 3 and against Romans 3; you will see the faith as the reason for salvation. Works and good deeds and holy living will mark out the Christian from the world, but it is not the basis of salvation, but rather the result.

I have a better idea. Read Romans 3 against Romans 2.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 2:5-13[/BIBLEDRB]

Either Paul was a schizophrenic or he was not teaching the doctrine you abscribe to him.

So when you say you will enter on works; before you can say works of your own you will be grabbed by the arms and escorted by two angels to a place you do not want to be.

I will enter on the works of GOD, not my works.

That is my understanding of God’s word. i have never heard anyone say thank you God for giving me the grace to do works pleasing to you for my salvation nor can I find a writer that ever prayed or said such a thing as that.

Again, the Sacraments are works of God, not men. The good works done by Christians are done through the infusion of grace given by the Holy Spirit. So those works are actually God’s as well.

I spelled my last name wrong when I signed up…LOL S/B Martini, not Martinin…not sure how I added that extra “n”. Don’t know how to fix it other than starting a brand new account, which seems like a waste.

Yeah, you have to start a new account. Sorry.

 

[Cat_Herder]

I mentioned to the person called CatHerder that some subscription with a title of “Jesus verses Religion” would be a good platform for this type of discussion. The rules that I read imply to me that this thread is not the right one for this discussion since the discussion here was about a specific person with a specific question, which seems to have been answered.

i don’t know how to start a thread or what the appropriate category it would fall under; I see apologetics with subdivision of sacred scripture or perhaps some other category???

FAQ: Choosing the RIght Forum

 

[joandarc2008]

Lemondiesel - I am coming late - but you seem VERY intelligent and I understand that you are having trouble understanding why the Church believes some of the things from Scripture.

Here is what I would suggest - try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church -you will find everything footnoted - and you can cross reference back to Scripture and to the different councils. It will help.

God bless you on your journey.

 

[Tuno]

Good post, LD. Despite what you ask at the end, tough, ultimately you will be responsible for and experience your decision, as do we all. But that is the thrill of contrast, and why we came here, one might say. The ride is ultimately worth it.

But where you are, and why you are asking what you are, is called, with good reason, and existential crisis. You are in a privileged position, and not many make it as far as you have. and you are exerting effort, which is a great sign of life.

The stage you are at has been viewed historically as the event horizon, one might say, the comes before the moving of the mind from a later stage of ego through to the transpersonal. There is a brief description of that process here. If you like, I will again send you that author’s information. He has it laid out as to timeline better than any others I’ve seen, and reading it might help ease you mind and give you hope. YOu may be experiencing what is called “the dark night of the soul.” It is a very beneficial process, but you have to ride it out, knowing that there is not only Light at the end, but even if you think you don’t see it, there is Light NOW. And it is no “flash.” It is the Essence of Constancy. If it wasn’t, you could not be asking your questions!

Blessings and Best.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Lemondiesel - I am coming late - but you seem VERY intelligent and I understand that you are having trouble understanding why the Church believes some of the things from Scripture.

Here is what I would suggest - try reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church -you will find everything footnoted - and you can cross reference back to Scripture and to the different councils. It will help.

God bless you on your journey.

Here is an online searchable edition of the Catechism. Index, cross references, Bible cites, the works.

 

[lemondiesel]

Okay, so I was sitting in Church this past weekend and a few thoughts/questions passed through my mind, which I hope someone can answer.

1. If we are to take some of the Biblical stories as symbolic (i.e. Babalonian tower, Jonah in the whale, Adam and Eve) and some as actual truth; (i.e. the most important being all of Jesus’ teachings, miracles, and life.) how does one know when to take one as symbolic or literal?
2. Refering back to question 1, if the Pope and the Church are the interpreters, what does one make about the recent news about the Pope? When does one know when the Pope and the Church are making the right interpretations?
3. I asked Windfish but never recieved a reply. Why does Jesus cry out "My Father, Why have you forsaken me?"
4. Personal experiences are huge. I have yet to experience one or anything that would suggest the presence of a God. Now, why do so many people have “religious experiences” yet belong to different religions? If people were having religious experiences, wouldn’t God be guiding these people to one religion, and not to several different ones?
5. Having said 4, my question now comes to, how do we know which religious experience is correct? I think it is pretty obvious that there are other people who claim to have been called by God yet belong to the Islam and Jewish communties. Which experience is correct?
6. In order to give us free will, God had to create the realms of good and evil. This means God created the devil, and because he is all knowing, God already knew Satan would turn on him, and create Hell. So did God create Satan, already knowing that it would turn into the battle of Good and Evil on Earth?

Quite sad that this is what I do in Church…

Here is an online searchable edition of the Catechism. Index, cross references, Bible cites, the works.

Thank you Cat Herder and joandarc2008. You can be garenteed that this will be my course of research for the next several weeks/months.

 

[joandarc2008]

Okay, so I was sitting in Church this past weekend and a few thoughts/questions passed through my mind, which I hope someone can answer.

1. If we are to take some of the Biblical stories as symbolic (i.e. Babalonian tower, Jonah in the whale, Adam and Eve) and some as actual truth; (i.e. the most important being all of Jesus’ teachings, miracles, and life.) how does one know when to take one as symbolic or literal?
2. Refering back to question 1, if the Pope and the Church are the interpreters, what does one make about the recent news about the Pope? When does one know when the Pope and the Church are making the right interpretations?
3. I asked Windfish but never recieved a reply. Why does Jesus cry out "My Father, Why have you forsaken me?"
4. Personal experiences are huge. I have yet to experience one or anything that would suggest the presence of a God. Now, why do so many people have “religious experiences” yet belong to different religions? If people were having religious experiences, wouldn’t God be guiding these people to one religion, and not to several different ones?
5. Having said 4, my question now comes to, how do we know which religious experience is correct? I think it is pretty obvious that there are other people who claim to have been called by God yet belong to the Islam and Jewish communties. Which experience is correct?
6. In order to give us free will, God had to create the realms of good and evil. This means God created the devil, and because he is all knowing, God already knew Satan would turn on him, and create Hell. So did God create Satan, already knowing that it would turn into the battle of Good and Evil on Earth?

Quite sad that this is what I do in Church…

Thank you Cat Herder and joandarc2008. You can be garenteed that this will be my course of research for the next several weeks/months.

Oh boy lemondiesel - you bring up some very good points -

1 and 2 can be taken together) There are many miracles and many symbolisms - here is how we know - upon the Resurrection of Christ - Christ gave the Keys to the Kingdom to St. Peter who was the first Pope. The Papal Infallibility was from the Lord Jesus Christ Himself - and has been passed down from there - that is how we know that these are the correct interpretations. On top of that the group of 12 disciples also had the breath of Christ breathed upon them (a story repeated several times throughout the Gospels and Acts) with the breath of the Holy Spirit.

1. It was the human side of Jesus - but he went on to complete the prophecies of the old testament - this is a whole other thread - the Crucifixion could have been stopped at any time but it was not and it was perfect in nature for Him to have died for Our sins in the exact way that He did.
2. There are locutionists which are priests that are trained to study and investigate revelations such as people that have had the Virgin Mary appear, etc. Generally each personal revelation that is contrary to Scripture and teaching is not to be believed. It usually means that the origin of the revelation could be not divine and possibly harmful especially if that person has been involved in the occult in the past.This is general - please do not take this personally - also it goes to how someone with the level of theological understanding they have may come to understand it.
3. We should seek out more experienced priests or spiritual directors to help us.
4. Satan turned on God because God loved man over the angels. Satan then fell. God gave us free will not so that we could choose not to love him but that so we could freely choose to love Him. When we freely choose to love Him that is the proper use of our free will. It is the difference between a spouse that stays in a marriage because they have to and one that stays in a marriage because of Love. Without choice there is no true love and our love for him is not as true and does not mean as much.

Those are really quick answers and I hope they help - God bless.

 

[reggieM]

Okay, so I was sitting in Church this past weekend and a few thoughts/questions passed through my mind, which I hope someone can answer.

First of all, I’m very glad to hear that you went to church again – and also to see that you’re working on some deep questions while you’re there.

I agree with joandarc2008’s responses and I’ll just add a few more ideas.

1. If we are to take some of the Biblical stories as symbolic (i.e. Babalonian tower, Jonah in the whale, Adam and Eve) and some as actual truth; (i.e. the most important being all of Jesus’ teachings, miracles, and life.) how does one know when to take one as symbolic or literal?

First points to remember:
The Bible is a big book. It has lots of pages.
More seriously, it was written over a very long time, by many human authors recording what God communicated to them.
It would be great if there was a simple answer (“Do this, and you’ve got it”), but the Catholic religion is also quite ancient and very deep. So, learning it takes a while. You dip your foot in the water and then eventually go for a swim in the shallow end, then move further out to the bigger waves. Before long, you’ll be surfing like a pro.

But until then, some general rules that will help your adventure are these:

1. Read everything as literally as you can. When you bump into a problem, then pursue that alone.
2. The events of Jesus’ life are all meant to be accepted literally. His words are “literal” also, with the exception in the next point #3.
3. Remember your literary knowledge when reading and understanding. The Bible contains poetry, metaphor, parables, similies, symbolism, description of mystical states – along with pure historical fact.

So, learning how to discern the Bible is like learning a language and culture.
We don’t need anyone to tell us when Jesus says “I am the vine”, that he is using symbolic language.

God teaches humanity through the Bible. The words are eternal - but humanity changes and grows in sophistication. God spoke to the early Jewish people in a way different from how He spoke to Jesus – and how He continues to speak through the Church today.

1. Refering back to question 1, if the Pope and the Church are the interpreters, what does one make about the recent news about the Pope? When does one know when the Pope and the Church are making the right interpretations?

We start with the minimal view. We know the interpretations are right on official, defined dogmas of the Faith. Conciliar decisions, infallible pronouncements, teachings reaffirmed in encyclicals, unanimous support of the Fathers and doctors of the Church, summaries of the faith … that’s the baseline.

God has also allowed some debatable points … so that we’ll always have something to argue about and stay interested in.

I’m only half-kidding there. Faith contains some amount of mystery. That’s the beauty of it. Where there’s mystery, there’s beauty and the chance to explore and learn. The mystery is inexhaustable – although we discover new truths every generation. We don’t glorify in ignorance or the inexplicable – but in the understanding that human knowledge will never become bored with the journey. After 2000 years of Catholic thought, we know a lot now, but there’s still a lot to discover.

1. I asked Windfish but never recieved a reply. Why does Jesus cry out "My Father, Why have you forsaken me?"

This is my favorite of the questions you posed. I’m tempted to write a lot, but instead – why do you ask this? In other words, what implications do you find in Jesus’ question?

1. Personal experiences are huge. I have yet to experience one or anything that would suggest the presence of a God. Now, why do so many people have “religious experiences” yet belong to different religions? If people were having religious experiences, wouldn’t God be guiding these people to one religion, and not to several different ones?

Another great question. More later when I get time.

1. Having said 4, my question now comes to, how do we know which religious experience is correct? I think it is pretty obvious that there are other people who claim to have been called by God yet belong to the Islam and Jewish communties. Which experience is correct?

As above. I just ran out of time for the moment.

1. In order to give us free will, God had to create the realms of good and evil. This means God created the devil, and because he is all knowing, God already knew Satan would turn on him, and create Hell. So did God create Satan, already knowing that it would turn into the battle of Good and Evil on Earth?

It has to do with Freedom and God’s committment to His creatures.
If God gives a gift, He maintains the integrity of it.
He gives freedom, and therefore must live with the consequences, good or bad.
He wants us to succeed. But we can only succeed if failure is a real possiblity.

 

[lemondiesel]

1. We should seek out more experienced priests or spiritual directors to help us.

Then what about Papal Infallibility, which was already mentioned in this thread?

This is my favorite of the questions you posed. I’m tempted to write a lot, but instead – why do you ask this? In other words, what implications do you find in Jesus’ question?

I have heard a few statements. I have heard “My god, my god, why have you forsaken me.” or “My power, my power, why have you forsaken me.” And if we believe the Gospels are eyewitness accounts, why does only Matthew and Mark parallel this verse? (of the seven Jesus says on the cross)

If I am coming off as nitpicky or rude, my apologies. Just trying to fully understand some of these issues.