My biggest (possibly) stumbling block

[LilyM]

I think I understand where the OP may be coming from.

The issues that trouble me about the concept of Satan are:

Why does he play by a script that has him lose in the end?
Why does he either not give up, knowing he loses in the end, or elect to no longer be evil personified?

If he can’t change, why can’t he?

What is his motive? The concept of evil for the sake of evil is a confusing concept to grasp. To expend energy is purposeful. Satan expends energy in his quest to destroy souls. When he aquires the soul, what purpose did he attain? Why does he desire this?

On this note, there is another, yet similiar issue that troubles me about the concept of Satan. If Satan wins a soul out of his cleverness, why is the soul fully accountable? (I probably should have saved this for another thread).

One would presume that Satan resents and is still rebellious against God and tries to thwart God’s purpose, which is the salvation of all souls, by having as many as possible die unsaved.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

to answer mijoys questions, Pride, satan is prideful. Pride makes creatures do dumb things. satan alos hates God.

there is ranks among angels, and satan is simply the highest ranking demon.

 

[JoeyWarren]

My speculation is that Satan does not believe he was created by God. He believes that he and God have always been.

That could account for Satan’s stupid stuff he does.

Satan may believe like the Universalists, that God is so loving that all will be saved. Satan may not believe that God will punish him for all eternity in the end.

 

[mosher]

I think I understand where the OP may be coming from.

The issues that trouble me about the concept of Satan are:

Why does he play by a script that has him lose in the end?
Why does he either not give up, knowing he loses in the end, or elect to no longer be evil personified?

If he can’t change, why can’t he?

What is his motive? The concept of evil for the sake of evil is a confusing concept to grasp. To expend energy is purposeful. Satan expends energy in his quest to destroy souls. When he aquires the soul, what purpose did he attain? Why does he desire this?

On this note, there is another, yet similiar issue that troubles me about the concept of Satan. If Satan wins a soul out of his cleverness, why is the soul fully accountable? (I probably should have saved this for another thread).

First Question: He doesn’t play by a script but rather is guided by his nature to do as he does.

Second Question: He cannot give up, again, because of his nature.

Third Question: The angelic nature as pertains to the angelic will is that their pirmay free choice at their creation is that they can choose for or against God. Once that choice is made it cannot be revoked because the choice is made with complete knowledge and a complete free act of the will. Because there is no new knowledge for him to gain about his choice his willed choice cannot be modified.

Fourth Question: His motive is found in the statement “non serviat” or “I will not serve.” He chooses to lure others to his side because he believes that his desire to not serve the will of God is superior and to not serve God means to obstruct the will of God at its very core.

Fifth Question: Simply because the soul that chooses against God is always free to make that choice. Satan never forces a person to turn from God but rather convinces the individual person to freely choose against God. Thus, because of the nature of man, being completely free, the person is culpable for such a willd act of defiance.

 

[trth_skr]

I think I understand where the OP may be coming from.

The issues that trouble me about the concept of Satan are:

Why does he play by a script that has him lose in the end?

Pride.

Why does he either not give up, knowing he loses in the end, or elect to no longer be evil personified?

Pride

If he can’t change, why can’t he?

Pride. Also, I do not think there is forgivenss for Angels. They were created in a hgher intellectual state than us (especially in our fallen state), and should know better.

What is his motive?

Pride.

The concept of evil for the sake of evil is a confusing concept to grasp. To expend energy is purposeful. Satan expends energy in his quest to destroy souls. When he aquires the soul, what purpose did he attain? Why does he desire this?

Pride

On this note, there is another, yet similiar issue that troubles me about the concept of Satan. If Satan wins a soul out of his cleverness, why is the soul fully accountable? (I probably should have saved this for another thread).

I guess by definition, once he has won the soul the determination is made. He can only win our souls with our cooperation. The unfortunate comes when he has temporarily won us over than we die before having the opportunity to reverse it. The question then is has he really won our soull at that point.

I guess this is the danger of free will and the consequence of God’s original plan going awry with the help of satan.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
JMJ+

 

[BJRumph]

Well, if satan’s sin is Pride, as assumed, then it should clear up your misunderstanding, not confuse anyone more.

If he is consumed with pride, satan may actually believe he is doing God’s will, and acting as a tester of men’s hearts, similar to how he is portrayed in Job. Due to the pride, even when he is informed of his error, even by God, he is still going to seek a way to justify his choice, if he will even come to agree that he erred, which it does not sound like he has. Surely you have known someone who has demonstrated such obstinancy in your lifetime?

Or, he might be like Osama, and feel that because he got a giant, in this case, God, to rise against him, it somehow proves his own exalted status amongst the powers. “See, I can provoke the Almighty, therefore I have power over Him, and therefore am not only His peer, but His superior!”

Pride can manifest itself in an innumerable fasion, and its chief hook is that it is self-masking. First, it rejects that the self has erred, then it justifies the error if caught, all to the end that the prideful reject what they know to be the right.

Satan does not have to “do evil for the mere sake of doing evil”, his fallen nature (not his created one) assures that his actions are rooted in evil, thereby producing evil fruit, regardless of how he perceives or describes his actions. Afterall, convincing everyone that God is all loving at the brush is a truth, and a good sound teaching. Unfortunately, he takes it a bit further and adds, “therefore, the REAL God would never damn someone to Hell; those that teach that He would are fearmongers and servants of evil…”.

And, thanks to his pride, once again, satan may actually believe his own lies! Even still, his condemnation would stand as Obedience is a central aspect of the Angelic Nature, even as much as intellect. Even if he could make such an error of interpretation, he would find no solace in appealing to his limited intellect, as he would have been informed of the error, and understand it or not, would have had to conform to the Divine Will. For whatever reason you wish to assign (we don’t really know the specifics, afterall), he chose to reject the very Divine Will it was his created nature to communicate. I suspect that this is why the angelic “choice” is both total and irreformable.

And I have already written to the point as to why he wouldn’t/couldn’t change if he did “come to his senses” and re-join the “winning” side.

 

[mardukm]

Sometimes, I myself wonder, “The Bible tells us Satan will be defeated in the end. Why does he go on in such a state of futility?” Stupid, right?

I just realized at the very moment I read this thread that Satan truly does not know the future like the Lord, for only God is Eternal (Who knows, and IS IN, past, present and future). All other spiritual beings are in aeviternitas, which is not the same as Eternity. So he is really acting without the knowledge that he is doomed to failure.

And he will certainly not listen to the word of God in Scripture that says he will lose, for he is full of pride.

So I agree with whoever said it. Satan is not stupid, only infinitely prideful!

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[trth_skr]

…I just realized at the very moment I read this thread that Satan truly does not know the future like the Lord, for only God is Eternal (Who knows, and IS IN, past, present and future). All other spiritual beings are in aeviternitas, which is not the same as Eternity. So he is really acting without the knowledge that he is doomed to failure.

…

I have thought of that argument, and fundamentally it is correct- he does not know the future. Even Jesus does not know the future, only the Father does; though I imagine Jesus knows through the Father (he need only ask).

Still, satan has intellect well beyond us, so I suspect he realizes that ultimately he will lose, and all he is doing is dragging as many of us down with him as fast as he can (rage).

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com
JMJ+

 

[Pax]

Satan is real and is doing his best to deceive each of us. Jesus is the truth, the way, and the light.

Scripture says:

Matt 4:10-11
Then Jesus said to him, “Begone, Satan! for it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’” Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him.

Matt 12:25-26
Knowing their thoughts, he[Jesus] said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand; and if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

Mark 4:15 (From the parable of the sower)
And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown; when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them.

Luke 10:18
And he said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Luke 13:16
And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?"

Luke 22:3
Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve;

Luke 22:31
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat,

There are more verses in the NT that mention Satan but these should be sufficient to let you know that Jesus and the apostles certainly believed in his existence. We either believe Jesus on this one or we don’t. Likewise the rest of the Lord’s teachings must be believed as well.

I hope this helps

 

[mrs_abbott]

Furthermore, and perhaps more contraversial, is the issue that according to the Church, the choice of the demons to rebell was a singular event, and that single choice was eternally and irrevocably binding. As such, Satan cannot “repent” and reenter the heavenly ranks, even if he has come to his senses about the whole thing. I say this is contraversial, as I have seen that some Orthodox do not agree with this particular facet of the theology.

Whoa! I thought that once you were condemned to hell that there was no turning back? You know, when you die and you are judged by your actions and go to hell because of them. Are you saying that there might be a way out, no matter what you did during your lifetime???

 

[mosher]

Whoa! I thought that once you were condemned to hell that there was no turning back? You know, when you die and you are judged by your actions and go to hell because of them. Are you saying that there might be a way out, no matter what you did during your lifetime???

Your understanding is correct. Once a person is judged to heaven or hell there is no recourse because there is no merit after death.

 

[BJRumph]

Ahem; remember that we are talking about ANGELS, not humans. The supposed possibility of the reformation of the fallen angels has nothing to do with humanity’s strictures.

First, the fallen angels have NOT died, and are still actively “alive”. As spiritual beings, there is no period of their being separated from their “bodies” which we call death. As such, comparing their Fall to be analogous to our structure/meaning of death is not really logically appropriate.

Second, the argument as I understood it relies upon the idea of the Eternal Present; as such it is suggested that the angels could be reformed due to the concept that they are still in the process of making the choice.

Again, this is not my argument, but something I read in some now forgotten Orthodox source. As such, I can neither articulate it sufficiently, nor defend it adequately. Nor can I say that this is a universally held perspective within the Orthodox tradition. It is simply where I heard it.

The issue is only really "controversial"in the sense that it is an alternate expression to be found within a Christian Tradition that is recognized by the Church as being nearly as valid as its own. I fully agree that the Church has a specific stance on the issue, based upon TA’s summa. That said, as the Church moves away from Thomism, it is possible this issue will be revisited, when the rift with Orthodoxy is healed.

 

[SPH1]

I consider myself a faithful Catholic in that I try my hardest to discern what is official Church teaching, and then I follow that up with an effort to believe in that teaching. But there’s one thing that bothers me, and I’d really like to know what the official Church teaching on this subject is.

The subject is Satan. I find it so hard to believe in him, as he just seems so… stupid! I can easily believe in a Satan that is a figure for sin, but it is my understanding that the Church teaches that he was a literal creature. Is that true? Do we know for sure that he is a fallen angel?

Have you considered the possibility that it is Satan who is causing your problem?

 

[Ghosty]

First, the fallen angels have NOT died, and are still actively “alive”. As spiritual beings, there is no period of their being separated from their “bodies” which we call death. As such, comparing their Fall to be analogous to our structure/meaning of death is not really logically appropriate.

Second, the argument as I understood it relies upon the idea of the Eternal Present; as such it is suggested that the angels could be reformed due to the concept that they are still in the process of making the choice.

While we have no dogmatic definitions on angels and demons as regards their will, there are many rational arguments for why they would not be able to “repent”. Such arguments remain speculation, however, and are in no way authoritative.

For example, spiritual/intellectual concepts are not subject to degradation, so Pi is always Pi, circle is always circle, 2 is always 2, ect. Only when such things are given physical form can they degrade, such as when a physical circle is warped and bent into a triangle. Angels are pure spirit/intellect, not material, so there is no reason to suspect that they are different from other intellectual things. Now angels have free will, so they can accept or deny the form of Grace, which is super-added to their natural form, but if they reject it their forms are set in rejection, and if they accept it their forms are set in acceptance.

Therefore an angel is “an intellectual being that accepts the form of Grace”, and a demon is “an intellectual being that denies the form of Grace” in the same way that a triangle is “an intellectual shape that is the sum of three angles adding up to 180 degrees” always and forever. Triangle will no more become square than demon will become angel, or angel will become demon; being intellectual substances they will always hold the form they’ve chosen (or rejected) for themselves.

The “angelic war”, then, can be envisioned as a kind of debate, with Satan leading the argument that these spiritual beings should set their forms against Grace, and perhaps St. Michael (or some angel unknown to us, or the Holy Spirit, or what have you) arguing that these spiritual beings set their forms for Grace. So there could be a mysterious “time” (for lack of a better term) in which not all spiritual beings were “set” or “self-formed” in one way or another with regards to Grace, but this “time” likely wouldn’t conform to our idea of a succession of moments, since our concept of time is intimately tied to physical change (which angels and demons lack).

Visually it might be something like this:

6 * x = y

This formula would represent the basic “form” given to a spiritual beings by God, with x representing the “Grace variable”. In a certain sense this form is very clearly set, as we have a set number, plus a single variable, and a single resulting answer. In another sense this “form” is completely open, because the two variables could be anything at this point; they are not set by God.

The spiritual being, through free choice, plugs in a set answer for the x (yes or no to Grace), and based on this the outcome is set. If x is 2, then y is 12, if x is -2, then y is -12. There is no more variability for y once x is set. The equation is completed, and it will never “degrade” because 2 is always 2, and 12 is always 12, ect. Nor does the original formula degrade just because the variables are answered; 6 * x = y is still the absolute formula regardless of whether x is 2 or x is -2, so the contradiction of degrading intellectual forms doesn’t come up. There are no angels or demons who have not plugged in the answer for x, and if there are spiritual beings that haven’t plugged in an answer (we have no reason to believe that there aren’t, since they aren’t subject to our kind of time) they would not fall into the category of angel or demon.

So, by choosing the variable that’s built into their form by God, the angels and demons have set their forms just as surely as circle is always circle, and this is because they are purely intellectual in nature. We, on the other hand, are both intellectual and material, and therefore subject to alteration until we are “set” at death. We must still choose the variable, and at any given instant it’s a “yes” or a “no”, but because we are malleable and subject to material time the variable isn’t necessarily the same from instant to instant, just like a physical circle can remain a circle, or become a triangle, but it’s never both a circle AND a triangle.

I want to stress again that this isn’t dogma, but merely a rational explaination of how things might work. God has not seen fit to show us exactly how these matters work for angels, at least not yet. This is basically how St. Thomas Aquinas addressed the issue, however, albeit with different terms and with a bit more detail.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Ghosty]

So, in answer to the first question, the reason Satan persists in evil is because that is his form, set from the beginning by him. He is what he has made of himself, and God has granted him that freedom and power to do so, just as He grants that ability to all His intellectual creatures (angels and humans).

As for why Satan chose the form he did, we can just as well ask ourselves the same question every time we sin. Why do creatures choose death instead of Life? We do because we can, and God has honored us with that choice. Beyond that it is something we just can’t answer. We humans are not “smarter” for being able to change our forms in this life, we are just built differently. On the contrary, Satan is perhaps the most intelligent being by nature (as opposed to Grace, since God can grant His very own Wisdom in Grace) in existance, he just has a form that is set in evil, set by a choice that we perhaps can’t justify, but we can certainly understand since most of us make that same choice regularily. When you consider that this creature has, through his own doing, led a third of the spiritual beings, and the entire race of humanity (barring the renewal of Christ), out of God’s Grace, you can appreciate just how powerful and intelligent he actually is. That he could get even one creature to choose death over Life is an incredible feat, but to convince as many as he has? That is something!

There is only one “thing” greater than Satan, and that is God, which is why we are untouchable so long as we cling to Christ.

Peace and God bless!

 

[VociMike]

I consider myself a faithful Catholic in that I try my hardest to discern what is official Church teaching, and then I follow that up with an effort to believe in that teaching. But there’s one thing that bothers me, and I’d really like to know what the official Church teaching on this subject is.

The subject is Satan. I find it so hard to believe in him, as he just seems so… stupid! I can easily believe in a Satan that is a figure for sin, but it is my understanding that the Church teaches that he was a literal creature. Is that true? Do we know for sure that he is a fallen angel?

Is it that you reject that there are fallen angels?

Or that you reject that there is one among them who is most powerful, and their leader?

Or that you reject that they can have an evil influence on humans?

 

[Truthstalker]

See Isaiah 14:1-27. The king of Babylon is regarded as a type for the devil. He has also known he is going to lose, because it is in the Bible and he’s read it. Hope is a virtue and he is without it. He is like a roaring lion (1 Pe 5:8) prowling about seeking prey, whom we are commanded to resist… But he is not ominipresent, omnipotent, or anything else (despite his desire that we should consider him so, even that we should worship him, as he tried to get Jesus to worship him). He likes us to get our eyes off Christ and onto anything else. He is a liar and the father of lies (John 8:44). He will lose (Revelations 20:10).

It’s best not to think too much or too little of him. Either is dangerous. Fix your eyes on Jesus, the author and perfector of faith, who for the joy…

 

[Atreyu]

Is it that you reject that there are fallen angels?

Or that you reject that there is one among them who is most powerful, and their leader?

Or that you reject that they can have an evil influence on humans?

The second statement most accurately reflects my current position.

 

[visavismeyou]

I consider myself a faithful Catholic in that I try my hardest to discern what is official Church teaching, and then I follow that up with an effort to believe in that teaching. But there’s one thing that bothers me, and I’d really like to know what the official Church teaching on this subject is.

The subject is Satan. I find it so hard to believe in him, as he just seems so… stupid! I can easily believe in a Satan that is a figure for sin, but it is my understanding that the Church teaches that he was a literal creature. Is that true? Do we know for sure that he is a fallen angel?

I too find myself in a similar situation. It is a matter of not being able to understand evil. I heard one person talk about a non-evil person cannot fathom what an evil person may do. An example is the people who were on the planes on 9-11 could not fathom that the hijackers were going to do something as evil as they actually did, thus they did not revolt.

I would, of course, suggest writting the devil off as something you need not know more about. Honestly, I do not really wish to care much about the devil, I’d rather learn about the wonderful philosophical and moral teachings of Jesus!

 

[Atreyu]

I too find myself in a similar situation. It is a matter of not being able to understand evil. I heard one person talk about a non-evil person cannot fathom what an evil person may do. An example is the people who were on the planes on 9-11 could not fathom that the hijackers were going to do something as evil as they actually did, thus they did not revolt.

I would, of course, suggest writting the devil off as something you need not know more about. Honestly, I do not really wish to care much about the devil, I’d rather learn about the wonderful philosophical and moral teachings of Jesus!

Yes, I think this is a good point. However, I will still try to read (when I get the time!) the references posted earlier in this thread, particular the Summa. I may not need to know too much of the devil, but the angels in general I definitely should know more about.