My Bishop Confuses Me - Any Thoughts?

  • Thread starter Thread starter MeusVita
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

MeusVita

Guest
Hello,

I’m well aware this topic has been covered before - however, this question is in light of what my Bishop told me prior to his leaving for another diocese. We are currently without a Bishop.

I contacted him regarding the “The Fraternity of St. Peter,” which was formed following Pope John Paul II, Motu Proprio Ecclesia Dei July 2, 1988 statement:"To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition, I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations."I wanted to know where I could attend the Latin tradition according to the 1962 Missal.

As gracious as it was for the Holy Father to allow the Faithful to attend the traditional Mass, the Fraternity of St. Peter is located in only 15 states with a total of approximately 40 Churches who offer this Rite.

This means, according to the census by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, that there is:

1 Church with the Traditional Rite per every 1,475,000 Catholics (the U.S. comprises 59.2 million Catholics).Given this, I asked my Bishop where I could attend the Rite, since there is not a Fraternity of St. Peter in my state (Tennessee). His response to me was to attend the SSPX Chapel.

Yes, you heard me correctly. Now let me explain what he conveyed to me.

He said, "So far, the priests of the SSPX in, but not part of, our diocese, have been ordained by legitimate Bishops. There will come a time when the younger priests who enter the SSPX will be ordained by newly appointed Bishops of their own selection and volition. When this occurs, you will no longer be advised to attend."And that is an exact quote.

So, I am now attending the SSPX and hoping against hope that when a new Bishop is appointed to our diocese, they will either bring or foster the presence of the Fraternity of St. Peter in our area.

I know what the Vatican says about this, but my Bishop advised me to attend.

Any thoughts?
 
The good news is that there may be other alternatives. For example, in our Archdiocese diocesan priests regularly celebrate the Tridentine liturgy at a parish designated for that purpose. In addition, other orders of priests regularly offer the Mass according to that rite. The Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem, an order established by Archbishop Raymond Burke, is now active in LaCrosse and in Saint Louis. There may be other orders serving people in your area.

Hope that helps.
 
Another way is to seek out a Dominican, Augstinian, Benedictine, etc… monastary and inquire whether or not they regularly celebrate Mass according to the rite of their Order. For example, hear in Portland we have a Dominican Priory attatched to a parish which holds a Dominican Rite Mass once a month or so and for major feast days. This mass isn’t exactly like the Tridentine Mass, but it is quite similar.

As for the response from the chancery, it is appalling and incorrect. Indeed, all the bishops and priests of the SSPX are validly ordained. However, their orders will not cease to be valid until the Holy See declares them to be so. So, I would suggest you not attend AT ALL, because it’s not going to get any worse.

Adam
 
Were any of the current SSPX priests or bishops excommunicated? :confused:

How could any of those priests or bishops be considered valid? :rolleyes:

Kathie :tsktsk:
 
Yes, the original set of Bishops and priests of the SSPX were excommunicated and ipso facto so are any new bishops or priests of the society. However, their excommunication does not stop their sacraments from being valid. Those that patron their chapels are also not under any form of interdict. However, one should only attend a schismatic (I know that this term is a hot one when refering to the SSPX) group is out of grave necessity meaning that there is no valid mass being celebrated in the local area. This is definatelly not the case in the US. One cannot attend a SSPX chapel just because they like the old Rite of Mass. With all due reverence for your bishops office he is incorrect in making that suggestion to one of his faithful.

NetNuncio – I love Holy Rosary. I used to attend mass there on occasion when I was free from the seminary at Mount Angel. Fr. Paul (who is now in LA) was and is my spiritual director. God Bless places like that parish.
 
God bless your bishop, but he’s wrong. Mosher is almost completely right, except that if no valid Mass is offered in your area and it would be a hardship to get to one, you are relieved of the obligation to attend. You don’t need to go to the SSPX to fufill the obligation, as there isn’t one.
 
40.png
JKirkLVNV:
God bless your bishop, but he’s wrong. Mosher is almost completely right, except that if no valid Mass is offered in your area and it would be a hardship to get to one, you are relieved of the obligation to attend. You don’t need to go to the SSPX to fufill the obligation, as there isn’t one.
Click to expand...
Of course that is always true … thanks for adding that.
 
How can this be true:

“However, their excommunication does not stop their sacraments from being valid.” - Mosher

Does this mean that a person who is not a Catholic, by excommunication, has Holy Orders which are still valid?

So we would have non-Catholic Catholic priests, wouldn’t we? I must be missing something here. :hmmm:

Why would the Pope excommunicate someone and then let them dispense valid sacraments?

Weird. :banghead:

Please enlighten me.
  • Kathie :bowdown:
 
40.png
harinkj:
Does this mean that a person who is not a Catholic, by excommunication, has Holy Orders which are still valid?
Click to expand...
Being excommunicated DOES NOT mean you are no longer Catholic.

John
 
Excommunication is seperation from the body of Christ. If a person received Orders validly it is like Baptism and Confirmation, it is a sacrament that changes the character of the persons soul and it cannot be undone. So, a person can be a valid priest but they do not have a right to celebrate the liturgy such as the case with a priest or bishop that is excommunicated. Excommunication only deals with unity where as a Sacrament deals with the character of the soul of the individual who received it.
 
40.png
harinkj:
How can this be true:“However, their excommunication does not stop their sacraments from being valid.” - Mosher Does this mean that a person who is not a Catholic, by excommunication, has Holy Orders which are still valid? So we would have non-Catholic Catholic priests, wouldn’t we? I must be missing something here. :hmmm: Why would the Pope excommunicate someone and then let them dispense valid sacraments? Please enlighten me.- Kathie
Click to expand...
Being excommunicated does not make one not a Catholic. One must formally apostacize to cease being a Catholic. It denies one the sacraments and any participation as a reader, emhc, etc. in a legitimate Catholic Church. Any validly ordained person can still validly perform what he was ordained for. Once ordained always ordained even if laicized. Baptism, confirmation, and holy orders leaves a permanent seal or mark upon the soul that cannot be removed. It is not a matter of letting them. Their actions are illicit(forbidden) but there is little to force them to be obedient.
 
How about when the Vatican “defrocks” a priest? Does that mean that he is ordered not to say Mass? If so, wern’t the excommunicated priests ordered to stop saying Mass? Or were they so ordered but just chose not to follow the orders? :bigyikes:

This is all very interesting and educational. :tiphat:
  • Kathie :bowdown:
 
40.png
harinkj:
How about when the Vatican “defrocks” a priest? Does that mean that he is ordered not to say Mass? If so, wern’t the excommunicated priests ordered to stop saying Mass? Or were they so ordered but just chose not to follow the orders? :bigyikes:

This is all very interesting and educational. :tiphat:
  • Kathie :bowdown:
Click to expand...
A “defroking” only means that he is not to act or represent himself as a priest in any way nor does he have the right to celebrate the sacraments. However no sacrament can be nullified so the indelable mark made on his soul does not nor can it ever go away. So, this is why in a grave instance he can perform the sacraments even though he is not officially a priest.

Holy Orders has the same type of effect on the soul as baptism and confirmation. One cannot be un-baptised or un-confirmed just as one cannot be un-ordained.
 
Have you though about seeking out a Byzantine Catholic Parish?

They use a Traditional Rite as well, though obviously not in Latin.
 
Brendan

Are you suggesting leaving the RC Church just because someone is confused by the Bishop ?

Running from a church is not a good reason to move.

One should be prepared to work within the Church for change first.
 
I am also not comfortable with people patroning another Church in the Church because of liturgy. It is not a sufficient reason to change your Church affiliation so it should also not be done unofficially. An occasional Divine Liturgy is not a bad thing but it is troubling when I go into a Eastern parish and a majority of the people are latins.
 
Leaving the Roman Catholic Church because one doesn’t like the liturgy or is confused by the bishop would be a mistake. :bigyikes: There are so many choices within the Roman Catholic Church; one does not need to join the heretics. :nope:

People have even moved for lesser reasons. :yup:

Kathie :bowdown:
 
Why is anyone confused ? The lefebvreists,the SSPX People. Are Excommuncated for Schismatic acts ! What Catholic worthy of the name associates with such people.They are enemies
of our Holy father Benedict XVI.
What Catholic would go to any service organised by such people.
I know they are duplicitous. In my area they never admit they are not in communion with the local bishop or the Pope.So One must make sure that one is going to a " Catholic church " that is celebratimg the TLM under the Indult.
 
I think JohnJ said it well, they have been an remained Excommunicate, a state in which, from what I understand, they choose to remain.

Also, now this is not my original thought but a priest I heard on Revelant Radio (right now I just cannot remember his name) but he pointed out that their Mass is a Valid Mass and the Eucharist you receive is the Real Presence, and your Sunday Obligation would be fulfilled.

However, all of this would be by taking part in an Illicit liturgy, which, on the part of the priest celebrate is a sacralidge.

Perhaps, in your discourse with your bishop, you may have unknowingly come accross so strongly about the Triditine Rite that he gave you the advise he gave, knowing that at lease would you be attending a Vaild, though Illict Mass, but the type of Mass you were seeking.
 
40.png
wannabee:
Brendan

Are you suggesting leaving the RC Church just because someone is confused by the Bishop ?

Running from a church is not a good reason to move.

One should be prepared to work within the Church for change first.
Click to expand...
Why would you have to leave the Church just to worship at a Byzantine Divine Liturgy? The One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is a Church made up of 23 rites. There are certainly parishes in the United States under the Eastern Catholic (not Orthodox) jurisdictions which are in full communion with the See of Rome. So one can go celebrate full communion with these communities because they are in full communion with our Holy Father.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top