My body, My choice

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Faustinaed

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Hi all,

I need some help in understanding Catholic teaching with bodily autonomy, and from a natural law perspective too. I recently got in a conversation with some people that were promoting the idea of assisted suicide, and even suicide to end suffering.

It started with a posting of an elderly woman explaining why she was going to commit suicide (she was slipping into dementia). She did not want to be a burden on her family, nor become just a shell of herself. The poster’s argument was that of ‘my body, my choice’ and is all for people being able to decide when to end their life.

This is an assault on the human dignity. I asked about if they would be OK with someone ending their life because of financial woes, or a child who was terminally ill. They essentially responded that it would be sad, but they would understand their decision. REALLY??? Is this what this society of anything goes has gotten to?

Then I countered with, well, if it is my body, and I decided to cut myself to make myself feel better, would you have me get help or just let me be? Again I was baffled: I would suggest you get help, but if you don’t want to get help then I can’t make you. Another answer was ‘if it makes you feel better, then why not?’

How can I respond to this in a non-religious way? I honestly am tearing up while writing this, dumbfounded at how low our society is sinking. How can people honestly be ok thinking like this?
 
Good question. I would ask them lots of questions in return, however, since they are making an assertion. What makes an illness a “valid” reason to end one’s life? Seriously, why? On what basis do they establish that as acceptable? Are they not espousing a “doctrine” of their own? If it’s my body my choice, what difference does it make if one is ill? Why would it be wrong to commit suicide if perfectly healthy? I would dig deep and perhaps the conversation would go toward what it means to be human, or at least they would realize they are espousing a faith-like, religious doctrine and should admit that.
 
This is one of those really tough questions, each case should be treated with respect and dignity , I am in favour of euthanasia , but I think my opinion is based on my life experience ,as in watching people die of emphysema ,listening to them breath,
Gasping for breath, there was not the slightest chance of recovery,
I spent many years on dairy farms, I have ended the suffering of animals,
Like my best friend,my work dog that was run over by a car, there was no chance of recovery , why should I let my dog suffer in agony, Why should a human being with no possible chance of recovery be not shown the same respect , when the suffering of a human should be seen with more dignity than that of an animal , but like I say,it is a tough question, each case should be seen on its merit …
 
phil_at_dayboro said:
I am in favour of euthanasia
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Then your not really Catholic becaus rthis isnt an optional belief. Just because you cant handle someone suffering in front of you doesnt take away the sinful nature of taking innocent life. God will reward the person one hundred fold when they stick it out and not die like a coward.
 
FormerXCatholic said:
Then your not really Catholic becaus rthis isnt an optional belief. Just because you cant handle someone suffering in front of you doesnt take away the sinful nature of taking innocent life. God will reward the person one hundred fold when they stick it out and not die like a coward.
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Coward huh ? Obviously you don’t get out of the house much then,
 
I don’t support assisted dying, but it’s wrong to suggest that it’s cowardly to want an end to suffering when you know that you are only going to get worse, not better.
 
phil_at_dayboro said:
I spent many years on dairy farms, I have ended the suffering of animals, Like my best friend,my work dog that was run over by a car, there was no chance of recovery , why should I let my dog suffer in agony, Why should a human being with no possible chance of recovery be not shown the same respect , when the suffering of a human should be seen with more dignity than that of an animal , but like I say,it is a tough question, each case should be seen on its merit …
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People aren’t dogs!🙂 It is up to God when our time is up. If one has faith, I would say that even if a person, God forbid, was in a really horrible state before you, one should behave as if God IS real and DOES hear our prayers and if we pray something like: “God have mercy on this person”, that person WILL die there and then in God’s mercy. You could call it moving a mountain!

In answer to the interesting thread:

I like what MarcoPolo suggested; the only problem being that reasoning with someone who has gotten to the stage of ignoring ‘Thou Shalt Not Murder’, is probably not going to see the reasons even when written before them if printed in vivid colours up the side of tall building. But it is a good start. And if you are battling with reason and truth you are battling in God’s way because he was also human!
 
Our society is sinking and this is just one of many areas you could get yourself engaged in an extremely frustrating conversation. We each have to understand that many people, including many who call themselves Catholic, holds views that are in conflict with our beliefs. I try to avoid these people, if possible, as I have seen them glaze over when I present my views and I see a determination in them to say and do and feel whatever. A wise person told me years ago “don’t try to reason with someone unreasonable”.
 
Faustinaed said:
Then I countered with, well, if it is my body, and I decided to cut myself to make myself feel better, would you have me get help or just let me be? Again I was baffled: I would suggest you get help, but if you don’t want to get help then I can’t make you. Another answer was ‘if it makes you feel better, then why not?’
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I think anybody who dismisses cutting oneself as acceptable doesn’t actually understand why people do it. The cutting itself isn’t a problem - the problem is what it means which is that the person is in deep pain but doesn’t know what to do. It is a cry for help. A symptom of a much much bigger problem.

That is why I don’t think it isn’t a great example for why euthanasia is wrong. It is done for different reasons - few people encourage euthanasia for mental health reasons and cutting is a mental health issue.

Euthanasia in my experience is usually encouraged for physical health reasons, whether it be related to old age or physical illness.
 
Allow me to place another spin upon this OP.

I personally don’t think assisted suicide is right, but…Purely as a comparative exercise lets examine this right of choice.

To the eyes of evangelical fundamentalist Christians like Jack Chick, by partaking in the Eucharist every Sunday you are committing an act of unspeakable horrific blasphemy. God’s sacrifice is symbolic, and to try and carry it out again and again, and then claim to have eaten his flesh physically…Well! They’re utterly disgusted by it.

HOWEVER…There is nothing they can do about you doing it. As blasphemous and sinful as they find it your actions are not actually causing any harm to the wider public and are entirely of your own violition. This right to choose by your own free will is what allows you to be a Catholic, and not forced to embrace whatever religion of America happens to have the biggest hold over the population.

If you want the right to choose, that means everyone else also has it. Quite often they’ll do things you disapprove of, but so long as you want to exercise that right you’ve got to grant the same right to everyone else.
 
Our bodies are sacred. A temple of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:20
For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
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The only complaint i had about taking care of my mom was the “i don’t want to be a burden”. Drove me crazy. She took care of me for 18 years.
 
Rixx said:
If you want the right to choose, that means everyone else also has it. Quite often they’ll do things you disapprove of, but so long as you want to exercise that right you’ve got to grant the same right to everyone else.
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The dangers of relativism!

The by-product of individualism!
 
friardchips said:
The dangers of relativism!

The by-product of individualism!
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Relativism is the only reason Catholicism is tolerated in modern society isn’t it? Would you prefer to live in a world where the majority enforced their world view on the minority? Because if so you’d be living in a worldwide Fundamentalist/Islamic Theocracy right now where belief in the real presence would get you put to death.
 
I believe the OP asked for NON-RELIGIOUS arguments to this reasoning.

If someone does not share our religious beliefs, does not believe in God, than most of the arguments above are useless. “Body of Christ,” “Temple of the Holy Spirit” are meaningless phrases to them.

Even as a Catholic, I would find it hard to criticize someone who could no longer endure agonizing pain and chose to end their suffering. I stood in awe of the strength of a relative who was given a terminal diagnosis from a horrible illness but met each day bravely and unafraid. I could only pray that I would be as courageous but would never be able to say that I knew would be.

AFA a non-religious argument, there has been a great deal of research that shows that depression is (understandably) one of the main reasons people with a terminal diagnosis commit suicide. Once the depression is treated and suitable pain-relief measures are in place, a majority of would-be suicides change their minds. Also, those facing such diagnoses are vulnerable to being influenced by those who have less-than-stellar motives to wish them dead - a reluctance to provide care or finance gain.
 
How can I respond to this in a non-religious way? I honestly am tearing up while writing this, dumbfounded at how low our society is sinking. How can people honestly be ok thinking like this?
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Without recognizing God as Supreme Lord and Creator, I really could not dream up an argument against euthanasia.

Society has generally usurped God and believes each individual should be master of their own destiny. For a Christian, that kind of thinking denies the basic tenets of our very existence. How dangerous to assume sympathy for suffering is charitable when it only considers how and when the end should come. Pure arrogance! Lord, do not let our emotions overcome your revealed Truth.
Euthanasia is a **grave **violation of the law of God, since it is the deliberate and morally unacceptable killing of a human person.
~ Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, 1995 ~
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phil_at_dayboro said:
This is one of those really tough questions, each case should be treated with respect and dignity , I am in favour of euthanasia , but I think my opinion is based on my life experience ,as in watching people die of emphysema ,listening to them breath,
Gasping for breath, there was not the slightest chance of recovery,

I spent many years on dairy farms, I have ended the suffering of animals,
Like my best friend,my work dog that was run over by a car, there was no chance of recovery , why should I let my dog suffer in agony, ** Why should a human being with no possible chance of recovery be not shown the same respect , when the suffering of a human should be seen with more dignity than that of an animal ,**, but like I say,it is a tough question, each case should be seen on its merit …
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I have no problem ending the suffering of an animal, in fact, it is our responsibility to do so rather than allow them to endure senseless pain.

Have you considered that Christ must have gasped for breath with not the slightest chance of recovery when He hung on the cross? Have you considered that this bodily life on earth is but a prelude of that which is to come? Have you considered that we have been promised endless happiness if we follow our Redeemer or endless suffering if we do not? I don’t see it as a tough question at all. What is needed is faith.
 
Rixx said:
Relativism is the only reason Catholicism is tolerated in modern society isn’t it? Would you prefer to live in a world where the majority enforced their world view on the minority? Because if so you’d be living in a worldwide Fundamentalist/Islamic Theocracy right now where belief in the real presence would get you put to death.
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Catholicism isn’t tolerated in our society. Hence, this discussion about murdering people under the pretense of ‘law.’

But as for euthanasia, I would suspect it is very unlikely that there is anything that can cause so much physical pain that it cannot be controlled. Indeed, it is morally acceptable to give a lethal amount of morphine, provided it was used for extreme pain control and not ending of a life (double consequences, one intended, one not.) But, with our medical knowledge as it is, if pain is the problem, then control it via other drugs or medications, and preserve the dignity of the human person, not debase it, and treat humans like animals.
 
Rixx said:
Relativism is the only reason Catholicism is tolerated in modern society isn’t it? Would you prefer to live in a world where the majority enforced their world view on the minority? Because if so you’d be living in a worldwide Fundamentalist/Islamic Theocracy right now where belief in the real presence would get you put to death.
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Relativism IS the new dictatorship. Pope Emeritus would agree.

And BiffRuffle has a point. Catholicism is not and has never really been tolerated.
  • Christ is the stumbling block of the majority.
 
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