my brother the wiccan sent me a wreath - help?

[estesbob]

Yes, I’ve said in other posts that WIcca dn paganism are different. But most Wiccans are witches, so I sometimes use them interchangeably, even though they are different things to. So right now I am talking about witches in general, whether they be pagan or Wiccan. A lot of people think that the Bible phrase I mentioned actually means that we should kill all witches, and I was just explaining how it got mistranslated.

You can disagree if you want. I don’t really feel like argueing over terminology though…Probably get as many different answers as there are people.

No it’s not. Wiccans aren’t little kids and some are quite intelligent people. They do have good knowledge of the dangers that magick can pose, so they use it only when needed after all else has failed, and they don’t harm anyone while using it. Otherwise they will have to pay somehow. You make Wiccans sound like fluffy bunny dunderheads who love storybook magic. I am wuite serious about my religion. I do not ‘play.’ This is a religion, and should be taken as seriously as any other. Stop stereotyping and tell me what makes the religion of WIcca evil, please. I still haven’t gotten a straight answer.

Both Scripture and the Teachings of the Catholic Church condemn dealing with the occult as Evil. You reject the authority of both so there really is not much of a dicsussion to be had. Since “Wican” is a fairly new “new age” type of witchcraft it has suceeded in seducing people who think it would be neat to practice magic. The fact that it puts ones immortal soul at serious risk does not seem to occur to nthem.

 

[estesbob]

Can you explain this difference between kill and murder? In my thesaurus, they are synonymus. And I have problems with God ordering creation to kill each other, and not as means as survival.

If I am drving down the street and a little kid runs in front of my car I strike him and kill him. If I see a kid playing on the sidewalk and deliberately run over him I have murdered him.

As I said before, however, having a discussion with a pagan about how to interpret Scripture is about as absurd as it gets.

 

[blacktiger057]

Where does it say in the Bible we are not to judge people? or their actions?

No, I never said don’t judge people at all. I said that you shouldn’t judge people based on what their religion is. To do so only destructs peace, plus is very ignorant. In other words, don’t judge people before you know them.

Anytime one trys to manipulate unseen “power” that only belongs to God to control is doing great evil, for they are claiming to be as God, attempting to control forces better left alone.

It’s actually energy that we use to create magick. Everytime we put our willpower and intention towards someting, we are working magick, whether we know it or not. So, this is a force that everyone uses everday, not just God. Even you have done magick…unless you have never had anything you wanted in your life and are devoid of willpower.

If you cannot measure the “powers” or see the “powers” then how do you know of it’s source? Though one cannot see electricity, it is a power in which man can measure and control and determine it’s sources, that is a natrual energy. but when it comes to “magic” where is that power coming from? what is the source? what does it really do? and how does it affect you and those around you?

As I said before, this energy is a neutral force. You shape its intetion and what it does for you. It is everywhere. You are made of energy, I am made of energy. It is in nature, the very air we breath. I personally think that this energy was formed by the Divine, but they don’t really have any control over how people use it. But what you send out, you will get back.

The deciever will allow you to be drawn in and it will appear benign, but once you start believing you are control then it will turn on you and in the very lest you will hold on to the evil known as disbelief.

I am not in control of the world. But I do think that I can make the best of my life. What is wrong with that? How is that even remotely evil?

Once it has you disbelieving that God is good and that all that believe in God are ignorant then it has already done a great evil.

No Wiccan witches think that the Divine is evil. Most of their rituals are working with the Divine…not sure what you are trying to say here. It’s more the other way around…most Christians think that Wiccans are stupid, based on what estesbob said about them. Wiccan witches are more live and let live types…

You become the judge you keep telling others not to be and soon you find yourself feed up even with the exsitence of others that disagree with you and maybe even yourself. Your tolerance becomes intolerance, your idea of love becomes based on hate.

Honestly, I haven’t the slightest idea what you are talking about. As I said, I try not to be the judgmental. I only tell people not to judge me on my religion, and that’s about it. Fed up with existence? I love my life!!! I’m quite confused about what you are trying to say here…Most Wiccans are fun loving people. ANyways, could you please rephrase what you are saying. I think that half of it was stereotyping and saying that it’s just the devil in disguise, which still tells me nothing about why it is evil when people do magick everday. And Wiccans being intolerant? Some people of all religions always are, but Wicca the religion is quite tolerant of others…

 

[blacktiger057]

If I am drving down the street and a little kid runs in front of my car I strike him and kill him. If I see a kid playing on the sidewalk and deliberately run over him I have murdered him.

As I said before, however, having a discussion with a pagan about how to interpret Scripture is about as absurd as it gets.

Okay, so I can see the difference there. Killing is accidentally taking a person’s life while murdering is deliberately taking it. But, as someone said up above, some genocides were by “the explicit command of God.” So, this would be God comanding people to murder others, then, thus breaking his own commandment.

I am not telling you how to worship, simply pointing out the contradictions in the Bible and seeing if you can explain them. I don’t make you post here, so if you find something that better suits your time, go ahead!

 

[blacktiger057]

Both Scripture and the Teachings of the Catholic Church condemn dealing with the occult as Evil. You reject the authority of both so there really is not much of a dicsussion to be had. Since “Wican” is a fairly new “new age” type of witchcraft it has suceeded in seducing people who think it would be neat to practice magic. The fact that it puts ones immortal soul at serious risk does not seem to occur to nthem.

No, the discussion here is this: So the Church says its evil. Thta has been established already. But I am asking what is exactly evil about WIcca and magick? That is the question that so far only one has attempted to answer.

 

[estesbob]

No, the discussion here is this: So the Church says its evil. Thta has been established already. But I am asking what is exactly evil about WIcca and magick? That is the question that so far only one has attempted to answer.

Presuming to use powers that are the provence of God. As Satan tempted Adam Eve to eat the forbidden fruit so they could be like God ,Satan uses the occult to do the same thing. It is a very effective method for increasing the occupancy of hell.

 

[Bennie_P]

Honestly, I haven’t the slightest idea what you are talking about. As I said, I try not to be the judgmental. I only tell people not to judge me on my religion, and that’s about it. Fed up with existence? I love my life!!! I’m quite confused about what you are trying to say here…Most Wiccans are fun loving people. ANyways, could you please rephrase what you are saying. I think that half of it was stereotyping and saying that it’s just the devil in disguise, which still tells me nothing about why it is evil when people do magick everday. And Wiccans being intolerant? Some people of all religions always are, but Wicca the religion is quite tolerant of others…

Did you not say this?

But, when it comes to judging people, such as witches, I don’t really want to hear anything from the Bible. Everyone knows that the Bible says witchcraft is the work of the devil and anyone who practices it is evil, and you probably know by now how this annoys me… . Basically, on matters of judging people based on witchcraft, **I am disgusted on what the Bible has to say about this subject. **

You don’t seem so tolerant on what I considered to be the Word of God?

 

[KarenNC]

Okay, so I can see the difference there. Killing is accidentally taking a person’s life while murdering is deliberately taking it. But, as someone said up above, some genocides were by “the explicit command of God.” So, this would be God comanding people to murder others, then, thus breaking his own commandment.

No, not quite. It is not only the accidental part that is the issue (though that does play into it), it is the reason for which the killing is done and to whom it is done. Killing a cow to eat it is not theologically murder. It has to apply to a human being and be ending that person’s life without just cause. One can deliberately take a person’s life as punishment for breaking a law or because they are your enemy in battle, but that is not considered murder because the deaths were for a just cause.

Merriam Webster defines murder as " the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought".

Now if one wants to get into what are just causes and who gets to decide if a cause is sufficiently just, that is another discussion entirely and has nothing to do with what the OP ought to do with the wreath (not that this really applies either).

 

[peary]

Originally Posted by blacktiger057
Okay, so I can see the difference there. Killing is accidentally taking a person’s life while murdering is deliberately taking it. But, as someone said up above, some genocides were by “the explicit command of God.” So, this would be God comanding people to murder others, then, thus breaking his own commandment.

Not if God was purifying and creating a Chosen People. After all, He also flooded the earth to get rid of the undesirables who were stopping His Will from being done.

 

[Bennie_P]

No, not quite. It is not only the accidental part that is the issue (though that does play into it), it is the reason for which the killing is done and to whom it is done. Killing a cow to eat it is not theologically murder. It has to apply to a human being and be ending that person’s life without just cause. One can deliberately take a person’s life as punishment for breaking a law or because they are your enemy in battle, but that is not considered murder because the deaths were for a just cause.

Merriam Webster defines murder as " the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought".

Now if one wants to get into what are just causes and who gets to decide if a cause is sufficiently just, that is another discussion entirely and has nothing to do with what the OP ought to do with the wreath (not that this really applies either).

Your so right, I really doubt his brother’s intent was to murder or kill him with the gift of a wreath. Wiccan or not.

 

[ThereseMarie]

I am no expert in Wicca, and neither am I one in demonology, however, I have read and find very interesting the book An Exorcist Tells His Story, by Father Gabriel Amorth, the chief exorcist in Rome. In the book he discusses, among many other things, the handling of cursed objects, as well as demonic attachment to an object or place (which he calls “infestation”). I don’t know whether a Wiccan “blessing” could act as a curse on an object, but it seems at least plausible that an object used in a pagan ritual could carry some unholy attachment.

IF you decide to keep this wreath (as it is, after all, YOUR decision), I would do at least two things:

1. Politely but directly ask your brother (there’s a novel idea!) if he has “done” anything to the wreath. If the answer is “no”, I would be inclined to believe him, as Wiccans usually never hesitate to tell you they’ve performed another ritual!
2. Obtain not just holy water, but exorcised water and salt and generously employ both of these substances on and around the wreath. I agree with the other posters that it also could not hurt to have a priest bless the wreath.

I commend you for treating this matter with the sobriety that it deserves and not simply shrugging it off as a whim.

Peace of Christ to you,

mary

Had to stop reading to reply to this post. It just makes so much sense. I have seen that book a couple of times recently and have been curious - now I will buy it.

PS your CS Lewis quote is awesome

 

[estesbob]

Your so right, I really doubt his brother’s intent was to murder or kill him with the gift of a wreath. Wiccan or not.

I agree. But when you are dealing with people who are dabbling in the occult you have to be very, very careful.

 

[guanophore]

And you would do this secretly to a gift you gave a family member, knowing that that family member would consider such a blessing not only problematic but actively evil?

Yes. My family members’ ignorance is not a reason for me to fail to practice my faith. His belief that it is evil does not make it so, either. If I were to avoid offending others with my faith, I would have ceased to be Catholic a long time ago.

If the brother knows that the OP is Catholic and considers that Wicca is basically antithetical to his religion, I would say that there is a more than fair chance that he also knows that things that have been so blessed would cause, at minimum, concern for the OP.

I am sure that these brothers love one another, and would not do things purposefully to aggravate one another.

One can certainly be united with the Divine and be a source of blessing in one’s individual actions without those actions including doing things that are known in advance to be likely to be hurtful to others.

I am sure this is true, but not always true. Many people are bothered by Catholic practices such as making the sign of the cross, wearing certain jewelry, etc. It does not mean I should stop doing it because they are offended. I just read on another thread where someone was offended at placing flowers at the feet of the Marian statue in the church. Should that practice be stopped because fundamentalists are offended by it?

In fact, as I understand it, specifically doing one’s best to avoid things that are known in advance to be likely to be hurtful to others is pretty core to Wicca.

Yes, that is my understanding also.

 

[blacktiger057]

No, not quite. It is not only the accidental part that is the issue (though that does play into it), it is the reason for which the killing is done and to whom it is done. Killing a cow to eat it is not theologically murder. It has to apply to a human being and be ending that person’s life without just cause. One can deliberately take a person’s life as punishment for breaking a law or because they are your enemy in battle, but that is not considered murder because the deaths were for a just cause.

Merriam Webster defines murder as " the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought".

Now if one wants to get into what are just causes and who gets to decide if a cause is sufficiently just, that is another discussion entirely and has nothing to do with what the OP ought to do with the wreath (not that this really applies either).

Okay, I get it now. Thank you for explaining that. But then, wouldn’t the death penalty be just in most cases? If somone is spending their life in jail, then there really isn’t any purpose to it. They are dangerous to society, and society is paying for them merely to live, and that’s it…So wouldn’t that be a just cause for ending a life? What are your opinions on this?

Whoah…I think we got horribly off topic here. You can pm for further discussion on this topic, lol!

 

[crenfro]

Father Amorth states that while it is rare, it is not at all impossible for a demonic attack, even a full possession, to fall upon a righteous person by the hands of occultists. He goes on to describe cases in detail. The picture is not a pretty one.
mary

Thank you again for showing the seriousness of practicing the occult.

I’ve been really upset while reading this thread. I feel like I need to go to Mass or something to get rid of the ugliness and horror I feel. Feel like I need a spiritual bath or something.

Evil in this world can seem so innocuous and seductive in the beginning. All I can think of as a proper answer to anything dealing with the occult is to RUN, and far away and stay close to God.

 

[KarenNC]

Yes. My family members’ ignorance is not a reason for me to fail to practice my faith. His belief that it is evil does not make it so, either. If I were to avoid offending others with my faith, I would have ceased to be Catholic a long time ago.

I am sure that these brothers love one another, and would not do things purposefully to aggravate one another.

I am sure this is true, but not always true. Many people are bothered by Catholic practices such as making the sign of the cross, wearing certain jewelry, etc. It does not mean I should stop doing it because they are offended. I just read on another thread where someone was offended at placing flowers at the feet of the Marian statue in the church. Should that practice be stopped because fundamentalists are offended by it?

No one has said you should not wear a certain piece of jewelry, make any gesture you so desire or put flowers wherever you want as part of your own worship. There is a difference between you choosing to wear a cross to signify your own beliefs and you choosing to specifically send a cross that you had specially blessed or socks that you had secretly doused with holy water to your brother when you know for a fact he would find such offensive. You would not be offending him with the fact of your faith, you would be offending him through your choice of actions and willful disrespect of him. That is not acting out of love as I understand love. I do not make it a habit to go out of my way to offend anyone, much less those that I love. There are other ways to get your point across more honestly and openly.

 

[Bennie_P]

I agree. But when you are dealing with people who are dabbling in the occult you have to be very, very careful.

This I know to be true also.

 

[Vintagecoils]

You think WIccans are devil worshippers to? No, that would be satanists, but some don’t even worship the devvil anway. Really, the devil is a Christian idea, and they can keep him! But it still insults me when you say we are devil worshippers, because to you, the devil=evil. I think you need to grow up; calling someone’s peaceable traditions evil just because you don’t agree with them is very ignorant and shallow.

And actually, in ancient paganism, the ladies were honored much more than men. This eventually shifted to having the gods and goddesses, but then shifted again into that male has the dominance…So, originally, ancient forms of paganism were all about women. Again, please, please do some research before making such baseless claims!

And others have told you what the pentacle symbolizes, so I won’t say what they said again. It is used for balance and protection in Wiccan traditions, not evil. PLEASE READ A BOOK ON WICCA BEFORE YOU MAKE SUCH CLAIMS!

Also, the horned god was around before the devil, and represented the idea of divinity in nature. Once the horned god from the celts, lucifer, and satan (from hebrew traditions) were combined, they became they devil. So the idea for the devil was actually a perversion of one of the Celtic gods. Oh, and btw, that was not the first image of ancient paganism(you said Wicca, but I think that is what you meant).

I think your answer for your brothers gift would be to decline if you clarify from him in what intention was the wreath constructed.    There is nothing wrong with you making clear what you will or will not bring into your home.

As for the posters trying to explain our misunderstanding of particular wiccans practices or beliefs, what you don’t understand is that Any worship of a god or goddess not identified with the true God the Father, God the Son our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit can not be accepted as being any thing other than false pagan or worship of satan. Any rejection of Christ is considered the antiChrist. We do not except little partial pursed out acceptance of your version of a god.

Christ existed before time. No pagan god or goddess existed before Christ. No entity or diety can claim any existance before him.

 

[Julian_Peters]

Thank you to all who have participated. This thread is now closed. Please feel free to start a new thread(s) on non-OP topics.