My Brother's Conversion Dilemma

[TarlsQtr]

My brother, who I am not very close to, recently surprised me with the statement that he is considering converting to Catholicism.

He came to me to ask advice that I am far underqualified to give. I tried the Ask the Apologist forum a few days back and they did not reply (not bashing, I know they are busy, etc.).

He and his wife had undergone in vitro fertilization for their child. They know the gravity of their error, or at least profess to understand, but also insist on repeating the procedure with the embryos that were already harvested and frozen. I can’t say that I have a clue what the Church’s position would be. I do know that it is fervently against it, of course, but the embryos will certainly die if they do not use them. Some will live if they do. Would the Church agree with their choice under these circumstances?

Just another example of the havoc this procedure has wrought.

 

[YADA]

Here is MHO…if they understand the gravity of what they did [and their beautiful child is still a great blessing] then they are there.

They probably will need to confess…but we all have things to confess…

Now for the rest of the chidren in LIMBO [figuratively speaking] I think that their implanting them will be acceptable…as you noted, the error is already done and cannot be undone. To leave these children to certain death or to become the subject of experimentation would be another grave sin…as I said, my take on the situation…

That said they must be carefull to follow church teaching when they attempt implantation…sometimes when they plant several embryos and too many implant, they [the doctors] want to terminate some of them…not a good plan…

They should speak a parish priest…or perhaps find a catholic college with an ethics/morality professor…both of them should be able to help them work through the ethical/moral decision making process…

Blessings upon you than your brother…

 

[1ke]

The Church has no definitive teaching on this area. They should seek guidance from their priest.

I can tell you that the Church has *not *prohibited the act of adopting embryos, implanting them, and bringing them to term at this point. Here’s an article on embryo adoption:

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=2236

These babies are lives already created, IMHO it is morally appropriate for the parents to attempt to save them.

 

[Ghosty]

I don’t believe the Church has weighed in on this officially, but I must personally side with those who say it would be appropriate to “finish the job” and bring those embryos to term. I would even argue that it’s a laudable move to make.

Confess the previous sin of using evil means to create human life, and then save the lives of those babies who were created. It’s not their fault they are “on ice” right now, and they deserve every chance to continue their lives. I think your brother’s conscience is already showing great direction!

Just my thoughts.

Peace and God bless!

 

[RobNY]

I’m a bit confused by the stance of the other posters here. I’m not quite sure how this wouldn’t violate what the Catechism says. I am open, of course, to correction. Wouldn’t paragraph 2377 seem to prohibit this? Of course, I am largely ignorant of the medical procedures, and so I really don’t know.

**2376 **Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child’s right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses’ "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."166

**2377 *Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."*167 “Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses’ union . . . . Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person.”

If someone could parse these statements so I could see why implanting the embryo would be licit, I would appreciate it. (Honestly, I’m confused, not trying to be difficult.)

-Rob

 

[TarlsQtr]

Hi Rob,

I believe it is because the act of procreation the CCC is referring to has already occurred. My brother already committed the sin and has broken both of the instructions you cite. The question then becomes, “What now?”

Thanks for all your responses. I am definitely try to get him to see my pastor and confess his sins.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

My brother, who I am not very close to, recently surprised me with the statement that he is considering converting to Catholicism.

He came to me to ask advice that I am far underqualified to give. I tried the Ask the Apologist forum a few days back and they did not reply (not bashing, I know they are busy, etc.).

He and his wife had undergone in vitro fertilization for their child. They know the gravity of their error, or at least profess to understand, but also insist on repeating the procedure with the embryos that were already harvested and frozen. I can’t say that I have a clue what the Church’s position would be. I do know that it is fervently against it, of course, but the embryos will certainly die if they do not use them. Some will live if they do. Would the Church agree with their choice under these circumstances?

Just another example of the havoc this procedure has wrought.

There are many moral issues from beginning to end with in vetro fertilization. Personal opinion in this situation would be to plant a few of the frozen embryos already created and allow them to develop would be morally better than leaving then frozen. However it must be understood that they cannot be in any way intentionally be over implanted and then selectively killed in the process.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

have your brother contact the Pope Paul VI Institute. They handle questions like these all day long.

 

[Evan]

The moral theologians are presently discussing the evils of adopting embrios (which is what your brother and wife would be doing) and the evils of not adoptiong (which is what they could choose to do).

For adopting: You give tacit approval to companies which supply IVF processes. You support the companies and allow them to continue IVF.

Against adopting: You leave small people without an option to grow to a more mature state. Death, in and of itself, is neither good nor evil. It is the intent of God that we shall all die.

Which is worse: complicity with IVF or letting young people die young?

 

[Ruthie]

TarlsQtr said,

I believe it is because the act of procreation the CCC is referring to has already occurred. My brother already committed the sin and has broken both of the instructions you cite. The question then becomes, “What now?” [end quote]

Rob posted the appropriate parts of the Catechism.

While the sin that created the embryos is in the past, it is still sinful to implant embryos. The pregnancy will not be a result of the marital act. It will be the result of a non-sexual procedure performed by a doctor. That is still the “dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple.”

So, yes, implanting an embryo is still a sin.

My heart aches for you. Sometimes God asks us to do difficult things, and obeying Him in this is one of them. It is an unbreakable rule that we may not do evil, even when a good will result. (CCC 1789, and context)

I’m praying for you.

Ruthie

 

[proudnifi]

The Church hasn’t made a definite ruling on embryo adoption. As others have suggested, they should consult an expert (like the Pope Paul VI Institute).

 

[Gardening_Mommy]

While the sin that created the embryos is in the past, it is still sinful to implant embryos. The pregnancy will not be a result of the marital act. …

So, yes, implanting an embryo is still a sin.

My heart aches for you. Sometimes God asks us to do difficult things, and obeying Him in this is one of them. It is an unbreakable rule that we may not do evil, even when a good will result. (CCC 1789, and context)

Allowing children to die in the freezer when we could have saved them is an evil, too.

In the parable of the Good Samaritan, the priest avoids helping the traveller because of the prohibition in the Mosaic Law against being in contact with blood; it would make him unclean to help save the man’s life. So, he keeps his hands clean, obeys the letter of the law, and leaves a man to die. Clearly, Jesus is portraying the priest’s attitude as wrong, probably sinful.

The “embryos” are not just blobs of tissue. They are groups of cells that are already starting to organize into a full-grown human. The accidents of their size and age do not negate the fact that they ARE human beings with souls.

God asks us to do difficult things, true. In this case, it may be to avoid creating further embryos, even if the family desires more children. But He would never ask us to murder children to fulfill a law. The reason the Vatican has not ruled on this issue is probably that they are trying to understand and reconcile the condemnation of IVF with the lives of these innocent children in the IVF clinics’ freezers.

If it is true, as you claim, that adopting IVF “extra” embryos would be condoning IVF in general, then what do you say to parents who adopt born children? Am I condoning teenagers sleeping around, rape, and certain countries’ coercive family policies or unfair economies by adopting? Obviously not.

Am I sinning by bringing children into my marriage who are not a direct product of sexual relations with my husband? Again, obviously not, since St. Paul uses adoption as a metaphor for us becoming children of God.

Just like those who have sinned and found themselves unexpectedly pregnant, many people are beginning to realize, with horror, what they have done by freezing their “extra” children, whose odds of surviving drop every year they spend in the freezer. Many of these precious children will die, cold and anonymous, in there.

IF the Vatican approves adopting embryos, it would, assumably, have to be under some of the same restrictions as adoptions: proper termination of parental rights, reasonable compensation (helps cover birthmom’s pregnancy-related expenses or fund the orphanage) but not so much as to constitute buying a child, etc. We are on our third adoption through Bethany Christian Services (evangelical Protestants, mostly), and they have opened a branch to handle embryo adoptions with many of the same protocols as “normal” adoptions.

We say we are pro-life and that it doesn’t matter how old the person is: two hours since conception or two hours before natural death at 103. As Pope John Paul II noted, these children conceived in a petri dish are still children. They still have souls. They are our youngest brothers and sisters. If God chooses to chastise this couple for using IVF, He may do so by preventing the children from living to be born. But why should we deny them at least a dignified death in the warm, loving embrace of a mother’s womb, and a chance at life?

 

[Altesse]

My brother, who I am not very close to, recently surprised me with the statement that he is considering converting to Catholicism.

He came to me to ask advice that I am far underqualified to give. I tried the Ask the Apologist forum a few days back and they did not reply (not bashing, I know they are busy, etc.).

He and his wife had undergone in vitro fertilization for their child. They know the gravity of their error, or at least profess to understand, but also insist on repeating the procedure with the embryos that were already harvested and frozen. I can’t say that I have a clue what the Church’s position would be. I do know that it is fervently against it, of course, but the embryos will certainly die if they do not use them. Some will live if they do. Would the Church agree with their choice under these circumstances?

Just another example of the havoc this procedure has wrought.

They should be careful to only implant 2 or 3 at a time. That would avoid the issue of “selective reduction”.
(IMO 3 is a reasonable number of infants to deal with if all implant and are born ).

If they don’t use all of their embryos themselves, there is an agency that will match adoptive parents who will have the embryos implanted and have the babies. Very cool idea!

nightlight.org/snowflakeadoption.htm